The Cavanagh Club

[Brad Bowers]

I did not find a union lable - even not after thorough palpation - but another tag. That might be the giveaway. Do you have record of similar lables of the time or does the code give any evidence?

The fold in the liner and the border of the centre medallion are certainly noteworthy. The stamp on the sweatband si not really legible, I must regret.

The reorder label you found is pretty standard for Hat Corp. hats through two or three decades, and maybe more. The codes don't really give an idea of the date of manufacture. However, a couple of things ARE different about it.

First, the height of the crown is not printed. Usually, the crown height is printed to the right of the block number, but it's not present on yours. Perhaps this is a clue to an earlier rather than later hat, or perhaps not.

Second, the size fraction is different. From my hats here at home, it seems that on at least mid- to late-'50s hats and beyond, the fraction is a smaller size stacked fraction, where the fraction height is the same height as the normal 7. Yours uses a virgule for a level fraction in the same size typeface. Quite different. It could also possibly indicate an earlier hat, as maybe at a later date they either made or purchased the special fraction for their printing machine.

Is the "7" in your "7 3/8" hand-written, or is it printed using a very large typeface?

The side seam on the liner is unusual for a later hat but fits in with an earlier hat. However, it's also possible it was reserved for the more expensive hats, the 25s on up. Same thing with the special piping around the liner tip. Both of the feature are not on later hats, at least not on the cheaper Cavanaghs.

We know it's not an early Cavanagh, and evidence suggests that it's not a post-'46, so I sort of want to classify it being from 1940-1946, roughly.

So what is the height of the open crown?

Let's see it on you!

Brad

 

[Dreispitz]

Right, Brad, here is the hat in action (outside tempreture 34 C, I gave my best)



Now it is getting interesting. The 7 is printed, not handwritten. There is also smething writen, cypher or number, that I cannot discerne, really. To measure the crown, I have to get a proper measure band for the job.

The leather of the sweatband is also different from the mid 50ies and mid 60ies, I have for comparison. It is, maybe, tanned diferently or another animal source. Calf- or goatskin? Feels a bit like camel skin, though. Maybe, that is too exotic

Do you have any idea, weather Cavanagh had different felt qualities? What were the particular differences? They all appear to come in the typical peach skin finish, jet the felts feel diferent The one, we discuss, right now is smoother, but similar to a mid fifties one. In the 60ies the felt, again, is slightly diferent.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Right, Brad, here is the hat in action (outside tempreture 34 C, I gave my best)

Looks great on you! You're right, that's getting pretty warm for a dark-colored hat.

Now it is getting interesting. The 7 is printed, not handwritten. There is also smething writen, cypher or number, that I cannot discerne, really. To measure the crown, I have to get a proper measure band for the job.

Okay, I see, same printing as on the $25.00 price tag. Interesting that the 7 is so large. Because it's so large, it doesn't leave room for a crown height measurement on the tag. That cipher looks almost like an arrow. No idea what it could mean.

As for measuring, I was just wondering the crown height, so a straight ruler would do the trick. It's probably somewhere between 14 cm and 15.2 cm tall.

The leather of the sweatband is also different from the mid 50ies and mid 60ies, I have for comparison. It is, maybe, tanned diferently or another animal source. Calf- or goatskin? Feels a bit like camel skin, though. Maybe, that is too exotic

Yes, I've seen differences in the leather, but I don't know enough about it to tell you if its a different animal, or if the tanning process was different. Different finishes aren't unusal, though. I suspect they almost always used sheepskin.

Do you have any idea, weather Cavanagh had different felt qualities? What were the particular differences? They all appear to come in the typical peach skin finish, jet the felts feel diferent The one, we discuss, right now is smoother, but similar to a mid fifties one. In the 60ies the felt, again, is slightly diferent.

They offered different felt weights, from heavy to light. Different fur blends will also finish out differently, which could also explain the differences you've seen across the decades. I've seen a few different finishes listed, but never actually seen them in person, so I'm not sure how they differed. All of the finishes I have on my hats are the standard Cavanagh finish, like yours.

Brad

 

[Dreispitz]

Brad,

crown height is roughly 15 cm, measured open crown. Seems pretty standard, as another Cavanagh is identically high, but has got a larger brim.

I like these Cavanagh hats. They are classic, stylisch, exeptionally well made, uncomplicated to wear and durable at the same time.

 

[Brad Bowers]

(Cross-posted from the eBay thread)

Not a hat, but an important part of Cavanagh history.

I was extremely nervous about this auction, but it turned out I was the only bidder.

When I first saw the photos, I was almost 99% sure I know what this is. I believe this to be part of the famous Cavanagh filing card system at the Park Avenue shop. They kept a filing card for every customer with all of their measurements, preferences, and so forth. (I believe the only customer that objected to this system was Bugsy Siegel.)

I'll know more when it arrives, but it sure looks like a card catalog box.

Cavanagh (and Knox) introduced $50 and $100 custom-made hats in 1955, so this box dates from then, regardless of its use. I'm virtually certain it's one of their card boxes, and was used in the Park Avenue store, especially based on the provenance.

Speaking of the provenance, I hope the seller will put me in touch with the lady that owned this, because I have many questions.

I had to beg, steal, and borrow the money to win this, but it will be worth having. I will probably eventually donate it to a museum, but for now it will look nice in my collection. I wonder whatever happened to the card it once contained. Wouldn't we like to know what was on those cards?!!

Maybe I should use it keep customers' information on index cards.lol

Brad

 

[buler]

(Cross-posted from the eBay thread)

Not a hat, but an important part of Cavanagh history.

I was extremely nervous about this auction, but it turned out I was the only bidder.


When I first saw the photos, I was almost 99% sure I know what this is. I believe this to be part of the famous Cavanagh filing card system at the Park Avenue shop. They kept a filing card for every customer with all of their measurements, preferences, and so forth. (I believe the only customer that objected to this system was Bugsy Siegel.)

I'll know more when it arrives, but it sure looks like a card catalog box.

Cavanagh (and Knox) introduced $50 and $100 custom-made hats in 1955, so this box dates from then, regardless of its use. I'm virtually certain it's one of their card boxes, and was used in the Park Avenue store, especially based on the provenance.

Speaking of the provenance, I hope the seller will put me in touch with the lady that owned this, because I have many questions.

I had to beg, steal, and borrow the money to win this, but it will be worth having. I will probably eventually donate it to a museum, but for now it will look nice in my collection. I wonder whatever happened to the card it once contained. Wouldn't we like to know what was on those cards?!!

Maybe I should use it keep customers' information on index cards.lol

Brad

Very nice Brad! Hope you get in touch with her. Maybe she has more "stuff" to sell.

B

 

[jamespowers]

You're lucky I didn't see it first.
That is a great find. I wonder what the fifty one hundred reference is to under the logo as mentioned inthe auction text. [huh]

 

[Brad Bowers]

You're lucky I didn't see it first.
That is a great find. I wonder what the fifty one hundred reference is to under the logo as mentioned inthe auction text. [huh]

Am I ever glad you didn't see it!

And apparently you weren't paying attention in class, Mr. Powers:

Cavanagh (and Knox) introduced $50 and $100 custom-made hats in 1955, so this box dates from then, regardless of its use.

I imagine it was instituted to hold the index cards for the new line of hats.

Brad

 

[jamespowers]

Am I ever glad you didn't see it!

And apparently you weren't paying attention in class, Mr. Powers:



I imagine it was instituted to hold the index cards for the new line of hats.

Brad

So the auction description was wrong. 50 and 100 makes more sense. :eusa_doh:
I would probably have used it as a cigar humidor so you are better off with it.

 

[Cigarband]

My First Cav!

Just got this in the mail today, and I'm tickled pink. It's my first Cav, and I like it ALOT!

More to come....

 

[Cigarband]

Sold by G. Fox & Co. Hartford CT. for $17.00.

Something is embossed on the inside of the sweatband, but I can't make it out.

Do I look pleased with myself?

Excuse the flash bounce off the mirror.

My head measures 7 3/8, but this 7 1/4 fits perfectly. Maybe the previous owner gave it a tug.
The sweat is soft and supple, and the felt is as soft as a
baby's ear. The brim is 1 3/4" with that beautiful Cavanagh Edge, and the crown is 5".
Can some kind soul give me some idea as to it's age?
I'm glad to finally join the Cavanagh Club.

PS. The size sticker has fallen off the sweat, what should I use to glue it back on?

 

[J. M. Stovall]

(Cross-posted from the eBay thread)

Not a hat, but an important part of Cavanagh history.

I was extremely nervous about this auction, but it turned out I was the only bidder.

When I first saw the photos, I was almost 99% sure I know what this is. I believe this to be part of the famous Cavanagh filing card system at the Park Avenue shop. They kept a filing card for every customer with all of their measurements, preferences, and so forth. (I believe the only customer that objected to this system was Bugsy Siegel.)

I'll know more when it arrives, but it sure looks like a card catalog box.

Cavanagh (and Knox) introduced $50 and $100 custom-made hats in 1955, so this box dates from then, regardless of its use. I'm virtually certain it's one of their card boxes, and was used in the Park Avenue store, especially based on the provenance.

Speaking of the provenance, I hope the seller will put me in touch with the lady that owned this, because I have many questions.

I had to beg, steal, and borrow the money to win this, but it will be worth having. I will probably eventually donate it to a museum, but for now it will look nice in my collection. I wonder whatever happened to the card it once contained. Wouldn't we like to know what was on those cards?!!

Maybe I should use it keep customers' information on index cards.lol

Brad

Have you found any examples of what the cards looked like?

 

[XPLSV]

Back from Optimo

Returned from vacation to find a package from Optimo Hats awaiting. Sent the Cavanagh Panama in to get reblocked, resized, cleaned, and reshaped. I'm very pleased with the results. The previously too-small hat now rests comfortably on my 7 3/8 Long Oval. It's quite a bit cleaner and much of the sulfur bleaching residue that kind of coated the hat has been removed. And I love the new bash...I wasn't too sure if that could be changed or not, having sat in the Optimo bash for decades, but it now has a nice teardrop bash with only a hint of the previous Optimo center line crease. Been wearing it with great enjoyment this week: definitely a permanent part of the collection now.

Before:

After:

Bernie

 

[Brad Bowers]

Can some kind soul give me some idea as to it's age?
I'm glad to finally join the Cavanagh Club.

Welcome to the Cavanagh Club! Fine specimen you have there. I'd say somewhere from 1958 to 1968, on the age.

I noticed the tag numbers, which reminds me of the earlier conversation with Dreispitz, so any ideas I had about the typeface are out the window, maybe.
(Sorry, mumbling to myself.)

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

The Panama looks great, Bernie! Optimo did a fine job on that. Did they return the old sweatband to you in the box? It almost looked like it wasn't stitched at the rear, like maybe it was a taped seam. That would give a clue to the age, and make this one of the older Cavanaghs I've seen.

The box is interesting, too, as I don't think I've seen an oblong one like that before. Oval, round, and octagonal, but not oblong. Cool.

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

Have you found any examples of what the cards looked like?

Not yet. I'm still hoping to run across one. They were index cards, but were they printed, just waiting to be filled in with the customer's information, or did they just use regular old blanks ones? Don't know. I'm going to do a mock-up card once the box arrives, so I'll post it.

Brad

 

[Brad Bowers]

Fourth post in a row, sorry, but this is important!

Guys, I need a little help here.

Two things I want to talk about.

First, is it possible that the Clover leaf sweatband bow originated with the Cavanagh division?

Here are two sweatbands, both taped seams, and both hats estimated to be 1931 to 1935. One is a Dobbs, the other is Drespitz's Cavanagh Derby. Now, I've seen stitched sweatbands with a regular bow on Dobbs, C&K, Knox, and so forth. Dreispitz's Derby is the first one that I've saved photos of that has both a taped seam and the clover leaf bow.

Now, is it proof that it originated at Cavanagh? No, but it's food for thought. It makes sense that Cavanagh had it first, since it's more work to produce than a regular bow. It would be the kind of classy touch that Cavanagh would use, and perhaps later migrated company-wide for unified look.

Second, the liner tips in Dreispitz's Derby and Bernie's Panama are interesting in that they are colored differently than later liner tips. It could just be the camera, but the left side of the shield seems to be a brighter blue than we see later, which tend more towards grey. And, there are colors around the outside of the shield that I don't have on any of my later ones. All of the colors, in fact, appear to be more vivid than later ones.

As I mentioned before, Bernie's appears to have a taped seam, as well (but no Clover leaf...).

So, are these differences in the liner tips a clue to help us identify the age of a hat? Perhaps. Again, food for thought.

So guys, any high-res pictures you can supply of your liner tips? Thanks, if you do.

Brad

 

[PoohBang]

here's one of my Cavanaghs... It's my favorite panama I own...

as always.. more pics on my blog

 

[rlk]

Fourth post in a row, sorry, but this is important!

Guys, I need a little help here.

Two things I want to talk about.

First, is it possible that the Clover leaf sweatband bow originated with the Cavanagh division?

Here are two sweatbands, both taped seams, and both hats estimated to be 1931 to 1935. One is a Dobbs, the other is Drespitz's Cavanagh Derby. Now, I've seen stitched sweatbands with a regular bow on Dobbs, C&K, Knox, and so forth. Dreispitz's Derby is the first one that I've saved photos of that has both a taped seam and the clover leaf bow.

A big Dobbs Homburg with taped seam and 5-Lobe bow.

 

[Dreispitz]

Quote "So, are these differences in the liner tips a clue to help us identify the age of a hat? Perhaps. Again, food for thought." Quote


Brad, great questions!

When comparing the liner tips of early towards late hats, it might be helpful to have a loock at the paralell development of printing techniques. The quality of the actual paint used for the Cavanagh liners is artist quality. I have to compare some liners to find out, if there is significant change over time. For the moment some pricipal investigation into the technical side of the printing method used might be illuminating.

Silk screen print is ideal for high quality prints on textiles, allowing for colour and detail.
I´d say that silk screen printing was employed on the Cavanagh liner tips - at least until some budget liners came about in later times. The US patent for silk screen printing came about in 1918. It certinly took some time until the method was used on a larger scale. As we know from experience, 19c and up later times, liner tip prints were monochrome, black, blue ... .

Do we have reference for monochrome Cavanagh or Crofut Knapp liners? Did other companies start using polychrome liner prints, at the same time?

However, Cavanagh changed the actual print design over time. With the change of the screens used, the paint might have been changed, as well. This could be a clue for dating. PoohBang´s liner tip of his straw is done in black and gold. The design is less crisp and legible than the earlier ones. Could also be a different printing technique, though.