Bring back dating?

[LizzieMaine]

Here is a question. would some of you women object to a guy wanting to be intimate early on, as long as he respected your wish not to? Or would the very fact that he let on that he sees this as okay be enough to make you feel he is not right for you?

I am curious.

It'd depend on what he did after I explained my position -- if he decides to just clear off and move on to someone more willing to give him what he's after, well, that kind of makes it obvious that he wasn't really much interested in me as a human being, doesn't it?

On the other hand, if he undertands that my feelings on this issue are a very important part of who I am and aren't some kind of manipulative game-playing, and he's willing to respect that, well -- the respect would be mutual.

 

[Diamondback]

In my case, mind you I've spent my life kind of like a high-tech monk, I can't just do a 'hookup'--once I'm in the game, I'll have to date for an extended period, simply to assure compatibility of personalities; with how complicated my own is, this is a major concern, as getting too close to Miss Wrong could conceivably trigger a "catastrophic systems failure" (the last was caused by losing my grandfather, who acted as a "stand-in dad" to me).

1. Me being autistic doesn't help--I tend to avoid dealing with people I don't already know, unless it's in a situation where I have some degree of ability to "play to my advantages". The "professional student" thing is also an obstacle, especially at my age.

1A. Because of all this, I tend to be very commitment-oriented; I'm not one to even consider a 'fling'--if I wanted that, I'd make my way to Nye Co., NV and hire a "professional."

2. Since I don't drive, that means things would get really ugly there. (I'd need a lift home afterward, unless things wrapped up early enough for me to catch a bus.)

3. I'm licensed for CCW, how do I break to a date that I'm carrying, unless it's at the range? (Colt .45s and coffee, how's that for a hot date?)

All of those issues notwithstanding, I definitely favor the "traditional model"; the problem is it's kind of embarrassing being dependent on someone else for a lift, unless it's considered a balance to my being the "WCS insurance-policy" and designated "problem-interceptor and bullet-catcher."

Like I said, I'm the guy who went to his senior prom because he had a job there.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

While I see no problem with a long courtship, I also do not feel that hooking up magically dooms a relationship to failure. I have had a number of long term relationships that started with physical intimacy very early. I certainly don't pass judgement on someone who does not choose my route. I also do not either on someone who does.

I also don't think there is anything selfish about it. As long as it is two consenting adults.

I do still think young people would be well advised to tread carefuylly. It is often the case that young people, especially girls, do it for the wrong reasons. Out of pressure, or to keep a guys attention. That is definitely the wrong reason.

Here is a question. would some of you women object to a guy wanting to be intimate early on, as long as he respected your wish not to? Or would the very fact that he let on that he sees this as okay be enough to make you feel he is not right for you?

I am curious.

Your question is directed to women I know, but I have an answer also.
I would most definitely object,even as a man. After all, if a woman took this course with me,...I would have to seriously wonder who she was maybe with last night, or last week, or tomorrow night for that matter, and if another person's feelings really even mattered to her at all. A player will never seek another person's happiness, so I would have to seriously question her motives. Any sensible woman would probably feel the same way.
Sorry, but I think the whole thing about "consenting adults" is just a cheap cop out, an excuse for selfish and irresponsible behaviour, and a recent product of the so-called sexual revolution of the modern era. Television and the media in general have done much to destroy the traditional marriage and family. Take Brad Pitt and his recent hookup with what's her name for instance, at the expense of his former wife. It doesn't take any special insight to see that that sort of thing is all about self importance and ego. I think that people nowadays are so used to seeing this sort of selfish and reprehensible behaviour, they are becoming inured to it. They seem to feel that if their idols on TV can act like this, well then, it's fine for them too. Hey,...whatever!
Before this, in the golden era, divorce was virtually unheard of. People did not make excuses for their hook ups failing, because the so-called hookup was really a non issue. People actually did take time to get to know each other because they were willing to be faithful and committed to one person, regardless if it was always just convenient for them.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

On the other hand, if he undertands that my feelings on this issue are a very important part of who I am and aren't some kind of manipulative game-playing, and he's willing to respect that, well -- the respect would be mutual.

But the fact that a guy even tips his hand early on, regardless of whether he "understands" your feelings or not would have to be a deal breaker,...would it not?

 

[Lincsong]

Just an observation of some people, not all, but some;

What I've noticed with some people is that early on in high school or such they start going steady with just one person at say age 15 or 16. Throughout high school they're with that one person. Then comes graduation and each go they're different way because of college or job. Once they're in their new environment then whammo within 30-45 days they've latched onto one person and for the next 3-4 years they date only that one person. Once they graduate college and they don't marry, they drift apart. Then within 30-45 days again they've latched onto another person and exclusively date that person for say 2 years. Now they're 24 or 25 years old and are afraid of being an "old maid" or see others that are married so they go and get married out of some type of "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality. So basically they've only been with 2 or 3 people their entire lives, now they're married and it's a whole new ballgame, they can't handle that marriage is not just hopping in the sack, it's getting up in the morning, paying bills, saving for a house, paying rent and learning to live with the other person's peculiarities. So they divorce in 2-3 years, they're 28 or 29 and are lost. I think it would have been better to not latch onto someone just for sake of having a girlfreind or boyfriend and seen who and what meets compatibility or chemistry. To get married simply because of being a phobia of being an "old maid" or "keeping up with everyone else" just seems like a pathway towards a train wreck.[huh]

But, then there's always the couple's who meet young and are married for 55, 60, 65 years.:eusa_clap and they've only date one or two people.

 

[reetpleat]

Your question is directed to women I know, but I have an answer also.
I would most definitely object,even as a man. After all, if a woman took this course with me,...I would have to seriously wonder who she was maybe with last night, or last week, or tomorrow night for that matter, and if another person's feelings really even mattered to her at all. A player will never seek another person's happiness, so I would have to seriously question her motives. Any sensible woman would probably feel the same way.
Sorry, but I think the whole thing about "consenting adults" is just a cheap cop out, an excuse for selfish and irresponsible behaviour, and a recent product of the so-called sexual revolution of the modern era. Television and the media in general have done much to destroy the traditional marriage and family. Take Brad Pitt and his recent hookup with what's her name for instance, at the expense of his former wife. It doesn't take any special insight to see that that sort of thing is all about self importance and ego. I think that people nowadays are so used to seeing this sort of selfish and reprehensible behaviour, they are becoming inured to it. They seem to feel that if their idols on TV can act like this, well then, it's fine for them too. Hey,...whatever!
Before this, in the golden era, divorce was virtually unheard of. People did not make excuses for their hook ups failing, because the so-called hookup was really a non issue. People actually did take time to get to know each other because they were willing to be faithful and committed to one person, regardless if it was always just convenient for them.

Not so fast. In the forties and fifties many movie stars got divorces and got remarried several times. Many a love affair blossomed during filming etc. they managed the publicity a little better I suppose. But even in the twenties and thirties, hollywood was regularly rocked by scandals, and many movie stars were known womanizers or manizers. Desi Arnaz for example. America favorite couple perhaps at the time. but Desi had many women and Lucy had a number of affairs too I think.

Marriages in general may have been more likely to last a lifetime, for good or bad. But since you are talking about movie stars of today, they are not so different from movie stars of yesterday.

 

[reetpleat]

But the fact that a guy even tips his hand early on, regardless of whether he "understands" your feelings or not would have to be a deal breaker,...would it not?

That is kind of the point of my question. Honestly, I think if women are going to hold out for a guy who doesn't even kind of maybe want to sleep with them soon, they are in for a long lonely wait. I would think that a guy respecting their wishes should be enough.

And if a woman likes a guy because he didn't try, it may well have been because he was smart enough not to tip his hand. but that doesn't mean he didn't want to.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

While I see no problem with a long courtship, I also do not feel that hooking up magically dooms a relationship to failure. I have had a number of long term relationships that started with physical intimacy very early. I certainly don't pass judgement on someone who does not choose my route. I also do not either on someone who does.

I also don't think there is anything selfish about it. As long as it is two consenting adults.

I do still think young people would be well advised to tread carefuylly. It is often the case that young people, especially girls, do it for the wrong reasons. Out of pressure, or to keep a guys attention. That is definitely the wrong reason.

Here is a question. would some of you women object to a guy wanting to be intimate early on, as long as he respected your wish not to? Or would the very fact that he let on that he sees this as okay be enough to make you feel he is not right for you?

I am curious.

Good question.
I think that if I were just dating a guy, say in the beginning of what I think could turn into something more, and he brought up his desire to be intimate, I would just think he's human. I mean a guys gotta try. You'll never know unless you do.
Sometimes early on people just know that they are attracted to each other, and although I try to make it my policy to wait, some people prefer to act on these feelings.
Guys are usually ready to take that step before a girl. Darwin actually had a lot of theories in regards to this.
I like to really know a person before taking that step. Sometimes its hard to squelch those kinds of desires, but if I think that there really could be something with the guy, I'd prefer to wait. But, I can't fault him for trying.
However, if he quickly lost interest because I prefer to wait a little bit longer, well then I know that he isn't the guy for me. So in a way this type of question can actually be a good thing.
If he respects my wishes, then I might end up liking him even more, which could actually mean that the typical waiting time might just be less
Besides, he's probably only asking because my incessant flirting and irresistible charm is making him weak in the knees and full of desire, so I really can't blame him for trying

 

[TheKitschGoth]

Here is a question. would some of you women object to a guy wanting to be intimate early on, as long as he respected your wish not to? Or would the very fact that he let on that he sees this as okay be enough to make you feel he is not right for you?

I am curious.

If he respected my wish not to then that would be fine. Unless I'd already mentioned my views on it of course. It would also depend on how he showed/said he wanted to be intimate..

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Not so fast. In the forties and fifties many movie stars got divorces and got remarried several times. Many a love affair blossomed during filming etc. they managed the publicity a little better I suppose. But even in the twenties and thirties, hollywood was regularly rocked by scandals, and many movie stars were known womanizers or manizers. Desi Arnaz for example. America favorite couple perhaps at the time. but Desi had many women and Lucy had a number of affairs too I think.

Marriages in general may have been more likely to last a lifetime, for good or bad. But since you are talking about movie stars of today, they are not so different from movie stars of yesterday.

Not so fast indeed. I was talking mainly about our modern "society" in general, and the pervasive selfishness which has invaded so many lives in recent years. The so-called "me generation". The media scandals are far more common and far more publicized today. We now have television in virtually every home in America, and scandalous behaviour has become commonplace to the point that it is really acceptable I think, to many. People adore a good scandal it seems, and the marketing people that want our money know this. Just look at the popularity of such programs as Jerry Springer and others, with their contrived scandals for the masses. Barely 25 or 30 years ago, television was vastly different.
I think marriages were far more likely to last a lifetime then because of the social mores we had, that are fast disappearing now, due to negative influences like this.
Give me an old fashioned romance with an old fashioned gal any day!

 

[Dan G]

whoa, intelligent conversation is sweet! That is what is really appealing about this forum. That being said, I feel as part of the youth culture I have to say something.
If boys would be Men, would girls be Ladies?
I really believe that the decline in society is due to the lack of integrity in our nations men! (I believe this applies to the worlds men as well, but i'm an American boy) I've always been very proud of my country, imagine the look of war torn Europe when fresh American boys came marching and sailing in! There was honor, there was courage and commitment. Sure there were "wolves" but I seriously doubt to the extreme seen today.

Originally Posted by Maj.Nick Danger
Your question is directed to women I know, but I have an answer also.
I would most definitely object,even as a man. After all, if a woman took this course with me,...I would have to seriously wonder who she was maybe with last night, or last week, or tomorrow night for that matter, and if another person's feelings really even mattered to her at all. A player will never seek another person's happiness, so I would have to seriously question her motives. Any sensible woman would probably feel the same way.

Sorry, but I think the whole thing about "consenting adults" is just a cheap cop out, an excuse for selfish and irresponsible behaviour, and a recent product of the so-called sexual revolution of the modern era. Television and the media in general have done much to destroy the traditional marriage and family.

Couldn't have been put better, it was like church bells ringing in the distance. Who really wants a serious relationship with someone like this? I'm not talking about the girl who really thought she loved someone and was duped into "hooking up", I'm talking about (for lack of a better term) sport sex types. yuk, certainly not me! I'll have to follow suit with some of the older guys, dinner, a movie and a nice drive to your dwelling where I will open the car door, walk you to your front door and say goodnight. If that makes me dull, I rather enjoy being dull.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I'll have to follow suit with some of the older guys, dinner, a movie and a nice drive to your dwelling where I will open the car door, walk you to your front door and say goodnight. If that makes me dull, I rather enjoy being dull.

"Dulllards" are quite the novelty these days, though.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

But the fact that a guy even tips his hand early on, regardless of whether he "understands" your feelings or not would have to be a deal breaker,...would it not?

This is what I was thinking how it would be for me. There's a lot to be said for couth. There are ways a guy can let a gal know he is physically attracted to her and would find her enjoyable *that way* without being so blunt. Anytime a guy came right out and told me he was hoping we could go back to my place and (fill in blank) after one meeting I got a restraining order. lol Not really, but any attraction I had to them was gone. Now, if a fellow said something like, "I can't keep my eyes off of you. Wow." That's a good thing.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Not so fast indeed. I was talking mainly about our modern "society" in general, and the pervasive selfishness which has invaded so many lives in recent years. The so-called "me generation". The media scandals are far more common and far more publicized today. We now have television in virtually every home in America, and scandalous behaviour has become commonplace to the point that it is really acceptable I think, to many. People adore a good scandal it seems, and the marketing people that want our money know this. Just look at the popularity of such programs as Jerry Springer and others, with their contrived scandals for the masses. Barely 25 or 30 years ago, television was vastly different.
I think marriages were far more likely to last a lifetime then because of the social mores we had, that are fast disappearing now, due to negative influences like this.
Give me an old fashioned romance with an old fashioned gal any day!

I agree with you as I've written similar things in other threads. I keep trying to stress that as a society we strove for different things even though behind the scenes and every day individuals did their own things. If we had a spreadsheet of overall percentages of people engaging in hooking-up and extramarital affairs in the 40's and 50's and then in the 90's and 00's would there be a higher percentage today than back then? I don't know, but I am thinking yes, there is more today.

Having said that, I think there is merit, in my world anyway, to shutting the h*** up and not sharing every little and "sexy" (and it's no longer sexy when it's so out there, in my opinion) thing with the world. OK, so sorry for that vulgarity, but I get passionate about this. What I mean is, with the internet, YouTube, blogs, TV what it is, everyone is constantly talking about *it* and showing *it* to us and going on and on and on and on about *it.* I think that takes away from *it.* *It* becomes less special and more of a sport. I think that's what happened with dating. YES, men tried to score back then and talked about it in the locker room and hid girly mags under their beds, and there were "fast girls," but at least on TV and the popular media which was limited to radio, TV and paper, sex wasn't being promoted as THE thing to be doing every waking minute. I'm a consenting adult, but that doesn't mean I want to hear about everyone else's bedroom experiences. It's this socially accepted permissiveness and hyper-openness that makes it more likely for young people's expectations to change about what their body means to them and others.

I'm sure if people don't already think I'm some kind of raving school marm they will now.

This is kind of fftopic: but I think you are quite the gentleman, MajNick. In fact, I recall long ago I pointed out that the FL white font on black background hurt my eyes, and you changed your font color and still use it till this day.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I think the real issue here is less a judgement of what individuals choose to do or not do, and more a question of a culture which seems, more and more, to assume there's *something inherently wrong with* those of us who choose not to -- that somehow we're inhibited or maladjusted or whatever you want to throw in there. What, if anything, can we do about that?

Lizzie, this has always been my issue, too. I think the only thing that can be done is to not feel defensive (not saying you do this at all, I used to feel this way) or offer "explanations" to someone for something that is perfectly valid and frankly no one else's business.

I never understood why so many people confuse one's openness to one's internal values as some sort of inhibition. It's quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Rosie]

Not so fast indeed. I was talking mainly about our modern "society" in general, and the pervasive selfishness which has invaded so many lives in recent years. The so-called "me generation". The media scandals are far more common and far more publicized today. We now have television in virtually every home in America, and scandalous behaviour has become commonplace to the point that it is really acceptable I think, to many. People adore a good scandal it seems, and the marketing people that want our money know this. Just look at the popularity of such programs as Jerry Springer and others, with their contrived scandals for the masses. Barely 25 or 30 years ago, television was vastly different.
I think marriages were far more likely to last a lifetime then because of the social mores we had, that are fast disappearing now, due to negative influences like this.
Give me an old fashioned romance with an old fashioned gal any day!

I think we may be jumping the gun just a tad bit. Marriages may have lasted longer years ago but, it may have not been for the "right" reasons. Divorce was looked down upon. Women were not educated and as easily employed as they are now. Women have MANY more options educationally, career wise and the like now than they ever have before. I am a single woman of 29 with my own home (2 actually) 2 masters degrees and a thriving career. That is something that was virtually unheard of in the past. Many people stayed together because they HAD to, there was no other choice so let's not confuse love, marriage, and morals with dependency and no choices. How many of us on this forum alone can say they came from a perfect matrimonial/familial union? (I am one of the only people I know whose parents loved one another, showed love to one another, were married, lived together and worked as a paired couple/family.)

Because a single woman and man (and I stress single woman and man for the adult factor and to note that no marriages are being broken up) decide to be intimate with one another WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT A RELATIONSHIP WILL NOT RESULT, there isn't anything wrong with that in my book. Because two people find one another attractive but not in a "I want to live with you forever, buy houses, cars, make babies and merge credit ratings" type of way and act on that, it's fine. It doesn't mean either of them are loose or immoral or lacking in self respect. Sometimes you may meet someone who is smart, funny, kind, sweet, caring but, you don't have the same life goals, does that mean you miss out on the experience of having a wonderful person in your life because you don't want to marry them? What if you don't want to get married?

Sexuality in and of itself is a human desire and perfectly natural. Safe, consensual sex is not the moral decline of the world.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I think we may be jumping the gun just a tad bit. Marriages may have lasted longer years ago but, it may have not been for the "right" reasons. Divorce was looked down upon. Women were not educated and as easily employed as they are now. Women have MANY more options educationally, career wise and the like now than they ever have before. I am a single woman of 29 with my own home (2 actually) 2 masters degrees and a thriving career. That is something that was virtually unheard of in the past. Many people stayed together because they HAD to, there was no other choice so let's not confuse love, marriage, and morals with dependency and no choices. How many of us on this forum alone can say they came from a perfect matrimonial/familial union? (I am one of the only people I know whose parents loved one another, showed love to one another, were married, lived together and worked as a paired couple/family.)

Because a single woman and man (and I stress single woman and man for the adult factor and to note that no marriages are being broken up) decide to be intimate with one another WITH THE EXPECTATION THAT A RELATIONSHIP WILL NOT RESULT, there isn't anything wrong with that in my book. Because two people find one another attractive but not in a "I want to live with you forever, buy houses, cars, make babies and merge credit ratings" type of way and act on that, it's fine. It doesn't mean either of them are loose or immoral or lacking in self respect. Sometimes you may meet someone who is smart, funny, kind, sweet, caring but, you don't have the same life goals, does that mean you miss out on the experience of having a wonderful person in your life because you don't want to marry them? What if you don't want to get married?

Sexuality in and of itself is a human desire and perfectly natural. Safe, consensual sex is not the moral decline of the world.

This may seem contradictory, but I agree with a lot of what you are saying. It's just that currently kids aren't given a variety of options about sexuality. Perhaps in the 50's it was, for some people, too much on the side of sexually conservative. I think today it's too far in the other extreme, and those who choose to not follow the current trend are viewed as "repressed."

 

[LizzieMaine]

Lizzie, this has always been my issue, too. I think the only thing that can be done is to not feel defensive (not saying you do this at all, I used to feel this way) or offer "explanations" to someone for something that is perfectly valid and frankly no one else's business.

I never understood why so many people confuse one's openness to one's internal values as some sort of inhibition. It's quite the opposite, actually.

Exactly how I see it -- it's the cultural implications that bother me more than how it might cause others to view me as an individual. I'm old enough and smart enough to take care of myself, and I don't think I'll lose a lot of sleep if some guy thinks I'm a prude.

But it's the culture my teenage niece is growing up in that bothers me -- a culture that pushes and pushes and pushes the idea that everybody's-doin-it. The poor kid doesn't *want* to do it, and she's actually asked me if I think there's something wrong with her for not wanting to carry on the way her friends do. If that's any kind of an empowered culture for young women, then somebody snuck in while I was asleep and changed the definition of "empowered" in my dictionary.

PSG, I know you and I have talked about "A Return To Modesty," the book by Wendy Shalit that goes into a lot of these issues -- but I'd also suggest "Female Chauvinist Pigs -- The Rise of Raunch Culture," by Ariel Levy -- which goes into a lot of the more overt cultural issues raised by this whole issue. Very interesting reading.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Exactly how I see it -- it's the cultural implications that bother me more than how it might cause others to view me as an individual. I'm old enough and smart enough to take care of myself, and I don't think I'll lose a lot of sleep if some guy thinks I'm a prude.

But it's the culture my teenage niece is growing up in that bothers me -- a culture that pushes and pushes and pushes the idea that everybody's-doin-it. The poor kid doesn't *want* to do it, and she's actually asked me if I think there's something wrong with her for not wanting to carry on the way her friends do. If that's any kind of an empowered culture for young women, then somebody snuck in while I was asleep and changed the definition of "empowered" in my dictionary.

PSG, I know you and I have talked about "A Return To Modesty," the book by Wendy Shalit that goes into a lot of these issues -- but I'd also suggest "Female Chauvinist Pigs -- The Rise of Raunch Culture," by Ariel Levy -- which goes into a lot of the more overt cultural issues raised by this whole issue. Very interesting reading.

Yes, that book does sound like a good read! Thanks!

 

[Feraud]

How do we reconcile "old fashioned dating" with the rise of the Internet?
The net has brought about a change in the way people meet, access information, and get to know each other.
If I told a prospective date I post on the Fedora Lounge she could check my name and find out a lot about me from my ramblings on the net.
She could hate me before ever meeting me!
Then again, I could act like a total gentleman online and be a jerk in person.