The most ridiculous Himel yet? Freenote Collab Beck.

[Marc mndt]

Here's Himel in one of his recent Instagram posts talking about patterns. He explains :

"Most of the companies just copy old clothing. They lost the ability to actually tailor, they just use software to create the patterns.

We do it the very old fashion way with the pen and paper and cutting the pieces and sewing them and working out how it best fits and then expending that across the range.

No one does that, tailors in London England do it that's it."

To be clear, he doesn't use the word 'bespoke' in this particular video. (But he did use it in several other posts)

What he explained here is how they do their pattern making / grading and that they do it by hand (not using software).

Maybe he thinks creating patterns by hand = bespoke? I don't know, but I do know that he's certainly not the only one apart from 'tailors on London' to do it like that. Theodoros is currently creating a new pattern for my next jacket which will be a one-off, using pen and paper, sewing the pieces together into test jackets. I'm sure there's many other jacket makers who do it like that too.

 

[MrProper]

We do it the very old fashion way with the pen and paper and cutting the pieces and sewing them and working out how it best fits and then expending that across the range.

5* does the same. I highly doubt that they use software for this.

 

[Tom71]

This latest rant about “fraud” is - astonishing.

Himel is arrogant, too expensive, his jackets are ill-fitting. A bit rich for my taste, but all within what I call “opinion”.

Who‘s defrauded by the marketing slogan, “You deserve bespoke.”?

Anybody who knows what it’s come to mean knows that Himels doesn’t offer bepoke. The customer provides measurement, and Himel makes a jacket. There’s no “fraud” here.
If I don’t know what “bespoke” means, I am hardly defrauded too, right.?!?

I always took the phrase to refer to the older meaning of “spoken for” as in, “Hey, let’s speak about an individual jacket that I will make exclusively for you.”
But such an interpretation would be giving Himel the benefit of the doubt, and we don’t do that here, do we?!

Maybe time to cool off a little?

 

[Aloysius]

Himel repeatedly describes himself as a maker of ‘bespoke’ jackets and notes how this makes his jackets different from the competition.

It’s obviously not about just making one off jackets for the customer because most of his competition does this already.

I don’t understand the argument that it’s not fraud because his customers don’t know they’re being defrauded. They know that he’s offering fancy fit thing x that the other options do not. They don’t know what x is supposed to entail but they know it’s special. Meanwhile, the other places are offering the same degree of limited customization!

There is nothing to ‘cool off’ about considering this is the same dodgy practice used by fly-by-night suit websites. Quite embarrassing that someone whose work is priced in like with real bespoke would pull it.

 

[Mich486]

 

[navetsea]

it's no different than Schott's claim about Brando's jacket, for a lot of people they just believe it and perhaps quoting it again, for people who look up for fact they know better.

 

[JMax]

I can only assume you're talking to me...

I already answered why he is using the term bespoke. I'll reiterate.

I don't think he's confused about anything. I think he knows exactly what he is doing. I've already acknowledged that is technically an incorrect term and that he is employing marketing or buzzwords and that most marketing is BS. That's why I believe he is using the term bespoke.

I believe Himel is using that word to differentiate himself (USP/UVP) He is aware no one in the leather jacket world uses that word. That is why he is using it.

If all those people quoted in the 3 threads above knew what bespoke actually was, they wouldn't use that term. Clearly, they don't know what it means.

He could have just as easily been saying custom or MTM and then all those people would have been saying those words instead, but then it isn't unique, is it?

It's very easy to confuse bespoke with custom or MTM as they all mean that they are made for a particular customer. The fact that we know that bespoke means more than just MTM and is a rather complicated process involving completely custom patterns, getting measured multiple times, going back to make adjustments etc.. just says how deep we are into this shit but really for 99% of people it's the same ****** thing.

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Blasting him for using bespoke instead of MTM is really quite ridiculous and you and others are fixated on those ridiculous semantics ("It's not bespoke, it's MTM!!!!!") because you don't like Himel and don't think his jackets are worth it compared to others. That is your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Aloy says his entire marketing campaign is fraud, I just said it doesn't matter since no one is buying Himels because they are "bespoke".

I don't believe that anyone buying a Himel is saying to themselves "I'm going to buy a Himel because it's bespoke and no one else does bespoke and because my Himel will be bespoke it will be better than other jackets that aren't bespoke".

I believe people buy Himel because they see his jackets and go "wow!"

So again, I think him using the word bespoke is marketing. And like most marketing, it's usually bullshit. You don't agree with that and like I said, that's fine. You believe him using the term bespoke is straight up lying and is more severe than the outlandish over the top statements by LW or BK or anyone else. I disagree.

Let's just leave it at that shall we.

Take it easy lol. If I didn’t know better I’d think Himel hijacked your account.

Aloysius responded much better than I would so I think I will bow out.

 

[Brandrea33]

Unless David is making and cutting the patterns specifically for you, this is no different from being measured up by a salesman.

To be quite frank, though, his branding and whole marketing campaign is an act of fraud. It’s not bespoke. It’s made-to-measure.

Yes, ‘bespoke’ has been misused a lot as a word but it’s one thing when a $200 online made-to-order company is peddling that lie. No one will believe it.

It’s the same reason why it was such a scandal when TAG Heuer proclaimed it had developed a new in-house movement that turned out being a (very good) existing Seiko movement. Likewise when Bremont did something similar. If a budget brand had made a similar claim it would have been annoying but not as much of a flare up.

Himel prices himself in a bracket that could get you bespoke clothing. Furthermore he routinely pushes his product as being superior to other, made-to-measure makers like Aero on the basis of its bespoke-ness. But it’s not bespoke!

Finishing and expensive materials do not bespoke make. Ralph Lauren Purple Label has extraordinary finishing and fabrics, but is ready to wear and made to measure. However, Ralph doesn’t claim that RLPL is bespoke. Similar honesty from David would be appreciated.

I’m sure the Himel fans are reading this as yet another attack on their long suffering jacket designer, but bespoke fraud has mattered to me a whole lot longer than leather jackets have. It’s driven the real thing out of business in many cases.

Thanks for clarifying the term bespoke, if you re-read my post I believe we are in agreement.

Does anyone make a truly bespoke leather jacket, where the pattern is created for the specific wearer?

I believe I saw a woman on YT a while back, in Nashville I think it was. Her jackets were in the $5000 USF range and looked like lamb skin.

David sure has a lot of decorators here. Too bad really, I think he has a unique brand. YMMV.

 

[Brandrea33]

Bespoke, Made to Order, Made to Measure, Patterns, Full Grain, Top Grain, Chrome Tan, Veg Tan, Combi Tan...etc. are just words that can have different meaning to different people.

If you bought a Himel jacket, and are happy about it, keep enjoying it.
If you bought one and are having second thoughts, move it on.
If you haven't bought a Himel jacket, and want to, and is within your means, just do it. Life is too short to wait.
If you haven't bought one and is second guessing the potential purchase. Don't do it, chances are you will continue to second guess after the purchase. Time is better spent elsewhere where there is no doubt. When in doubt, always trust your own guts feeling.

This is the end of the recording. To repeat go back up top...

lol, pretty much.

 

[Will Zach]

David sure has a lot of decorators here. Too bad really, I think he has a unique brand. YMMV.

Detractors?

 

[jeo]

Take it easy lol. If I didn’t know better I’d think Himel hijacked your account.

Aloysius responded much better than I would so I think I will bow out.

I actually try to be as balanced as possible. This is well documented throughout my tenure here. I’ll both criticize and praise when deserved. You’ll never see me fanboy over anyone or anything. Can’t say the same about everyone here.

 

[jonbuilder]

Does anyone make a truly bespoke leather jacket, where the pattern is created for the specific wearer?

Johnston Leathers San Francisco. They made my speedway from a photo and took measurements of me and then made a mockup out of canvas and marked adjustments for the final jacket pattern.
They also had me try on a custom jacket they made for someone else and ask what I would change in fit.

 

[Marc mndt]

I don't think actual bespoke (as in tailoring) makes a whole lot of sense for leather jacket making. 90% of the fit is dialed in by adjusting a standard pattern. The rest will happen when breaking in the jacket as the leather stretches.

 

[navetsea]

i think the whole point of bespoke tailoring is to eliminate creases for specific wearer , while part of cool factor in leather jacket is creases from wear. although I must say there is still good looking creases formed on a well fitting jacket and ugly looking creases formed on ill fitting jacket.

 

[NYDRH]

Does anyone make a truly bespoke leather jacket, where the pattern is created for the specific wearer?

The famous Savile Row houses, Cifonelli in Paris and I'm sure some of the other more well known tailoring houses in Italy and around the world do. I believe they usually have a person inhouse or on contract that specializes in leather. And the prices make Himel look like a bargain. They also aren't likely to offer up a motorcycle style jacket it's more of a leather blazer type casual wear like below €5500 in 2016 so probably €8000 now:

https://www.permanentstyle.com/2016/03/bespoke-suede-jacket-cifonelli.html

I don't think actual bespoke (as in tailoring) makes a whole lot of sense for leather jacket making. 90% of the fit is dialed in by adjusting a standard pattern. The rest will happen when breaking in the jacket as the leather stretches.

It really is a luxury and if you're the type of guy who spends $10k on suit this is the way to go but the incremental benefit relative to what you would get under mtm and pattern adjustment is not the upgrade relative to what you get with cloth going from rtw to bespoke.

I personally think if you get a good fit from Himel his price is quite fair particularly when you consider that plenty of RTW is priced the same, but he's not bespoke. I don't think his motives are nefarious and it is just marketing.

The word has been so beaten into submission it has no meaning and I know some tailors have stopped using it and opted to go with custom. It's unfortunate but that's what happens with words sometimes especially in the modern world of social media and marketing.

 

[jeo]

And real bespoke leather does exist. Carlos once walked into Lewis and the pattern maker actually drafted a bespoke pattern for him, for instance.

LOL that's hilarious! Just a custom pattern is not bespoke. Looks like you don't even know the difference.

No.

By all means, continue on.

 

[ton312]

Something of a unique fork in the road for this thread. The original criticism of the stock jacket is completely valid. I tried on two models at Mildblend in Chicago, many years ago, and I can say without apology they were the worst fitting OTR leather jackets in my size I’ve ever put on. At the time I was very tempted to have the shop owner photo me in the jackets so I could post them here but I did not b/c I felt it would actually be too cruel and come off as an attack on the brand. These were stock 44”s, which would be the proper size for me.

The MTM vs Bespoke argument (while I understand it) is of little consequence or importance to me. The larger issue is what I consider extreme and unfounded brand arrogance. While we have seen some true gems come from DH, we have also seen a fair number of absolute duds. Backward cuffs, sloppy stitching, and wildly blown proportions.

“One good thing”?!???

The implication being that anything other is not, which I really bristle at. And while I will happily admit to seeing some beautiful hits by DH (primarily on this forum) there have been an equal number of head scratching misses and jackets that look more like shirts. As much heat as Greg takes for his shoulders and patterns, I see the Himel jackets as exponentially worse.

 

[Will Zach]

LOL that's hilarious! Just a custom pattern is not bespoke. Looks like you don't even know the difference.


By all means, continue on.

If a custom pattern is not bespoke, then what is? You get a blowjob with the jacket?

 

[jeo]

@Will Zach What Jonbuilder said comes close if we are wanting to make the difference to begin with.

 

[jeo]

As much heat as Greg takes for his shoulders and patterns, I see the Himel jackets as exponentially worse.

I actually like that about his jackets. Somewhat of a unique signature.