Real McCoy's USA web store open

[Benj]

Not everyone needs custom fitting, personally I don't think I could get a better fit even if it was tailor made, as a result of discrepancies when making the jacket.

Btw,what's the story with you and DD?

 

[Big J]

Not everyone needs custom fitting, personally I don't think I could get a better fit even if it was tailor made, as a result of discrepancies when making the jacket.

Btw,what's the story with you and DD?

But this is what I'm trying to say, if we were talking about suits, not flight jackets, and there was this brand making off the peg suits at tailor made prices, people would laugh their a$$es off.

A couple of months back, over on VLJF, DD and others were slamming Aero. I called them out on it, DD told me my opinion was worthless as a new member, I told him he was on an ego trip, his friend who paints A-2 jackets told me that him and DD were 'serving their country' like fighter pilots, because they sell stuff. Then the mods e-mailed me and waved me off. Now DD and A-2 guy have gone back and edited their posts.
I wouldn't do business with people that stupid, dishonest, or mentally ill.

 

[Benj]

The only problem I see with the justification is it's purely making the difference off-the-peg vs tailor-made. If that was the case and they were 100% equal, then yes I'd completely agree, my ass would be off!

On the other hand I don't think it's the case. The reason why I went for the RMC is that there is something about styling that I personally feel a lot of the japanese brands get "more righter" than other companies, imo. Things like stitching gauge, stitching-closeness to the end of the jacket (I prefer a stitch closer to wear the leather folds), and other things that I can't quantify that make a difference visually. One example is I love the Aero Highwayman, but the bottom strip of leather is about an inch or two too small and it looks off to me, little things like that that prevent me from buying it.

The only other jacket I thought really got it right to me was the Himel, but I personally wasn't comfortable spending that kind of coin on a relatively simple jacket like a buco.

On the other hand the Aero board racer modded into a buco definitely looks great.

And for those off us lucky enough to fit the off-the-rack patterns, and fit them well, I don't see no custom fit as a drawback. In fact I appreciate getting my jacket in a few days but I clearly see how to a lot of other people it is very important.

 

[Big J]

The only problem I see with the justification is it's purely making the difference off-the-peg vs tailor-made. If that was the case and they were 100% equal, then yes I'd completely agree, my ass would be off!

On the other hand I don't think it's the case. The reason why I went for the RMC is that there is something about styling that I personally feel a lot of the japanese brands get "more righter" than other companies, imo. Things like stitching gauge, stitching-closeness to the end of the jacket (I prefer a stitch closer to wear the leather folds), and other things that I can't quantify that make a difference visually. One example is I love the Aero Highwayman, but the bottom strip of leather is about an inch or two too small and it looks off to me, little things like that that prevent me from buying it.

The only other jacket I thought really got it right to me was the Himel, but I personally wasn't comfortable spending that kind of coin on a relatively simple jacket like a buco.

On the other hand the Aero board racer modded into a buco definitely looks great.

And for those off us lucky enough to fit the off-the-rack patterns, and fit them well, I don't see no custom fit as a drawback. In fact I appreciate getting my jacket in a few days but I clearly see how to a lot of other people it is very important.

Well, I only see these things from my point of view, so maybe that's a good topic for a whole new thread; How important is a custom fit?

 

[Superfluous]

Customization is certainly an important factor, particularly for those who do match well with off-the-rack sizing. However, customization is only one of many important factors. Moreover, customization does not equate to quality. There are poorly made custom clothes, and well made off-the-rack clothing; and vice versa. I would prefer most off-the-rack suits from Cesare Attolini, Kiton, Brunello Cucinelli, Brioni or Isaia over all but the finest bespoke suits (e.g., Desmond Merrion, Enzo D’Orsi or William Westmancott). Likewise, I would much prefer an off-the-rack RMC jacket over a custom made Alexander/Simmons Bilt. Additionally, certain of the more desirable custom made options involve trade-offs. For example, GW requires a two-year wait.

Bottom line: All other things being equal, customization is plainly advantageous. However, all other things are not equal.

 

[Monitor]

A couple of months back, over on VLJF, DD and others were slamming Aero. I called them out on it, DD told me my opinion was worthless as a new member, I told him he was on an ego trip, his friend who paints A-2 jackets told me that him and DD were 'serving their country' like fighter pilots, because they sell stuff. Then the mods e-mailed me and waved me off. Now DD and A-2 guy have gone back and edited their posts.

'serving their country' <- Oh dear God. lol
...seriously though, what's their problem with Aero? The fact that they get the pockets aligned at the first try?

 

[dudewuttheheck]

This is weird and kinda sad. Last year, DD was really nice when I talked to him and made me an excellent jacket. Recently, worse products and worse conduct

 

[Blackadder]

I think all those negative comments and criticism starts to get to him just as it got to the recent DD thread next door. That thread started off very detail and very informative about sharing a recent purchase then people started criticizing and the owner felt that he had to defend his purchase by turning the table on RM saying things like how RM is underwhelming and he would rather buy 2 Eastman than one RM for the price.

Similarly, Deacon started by simply asking if RM is any good and how does it compare to Goodwear then it somehow got to "is RM worth 4 times the price of a Cockpit?". It then got me off hence my comment about justifying somethings' worth here.

 

[Deacon211]

I think all those negative comments and criticism starts to get to him just as it got to the recent DD thread next door. That thread started off very detail and very informative about sharing a recent purchase then people started criticizing and the owner felt that he had to defend his purchase by turning the table on RM saying things like how RM is underwhelming and he would rather buy 2 Eastman than one RM for the price.

Similarly, Deacon started by simply asking if RM is any good and how does it compare to Goodwear then it somehow got to "is RM worth 4 times the price of a Cockpit?". It then got me off hence my comment about justifying somethings' worth here.

Hehe, well I think even the best intentioned threads take on a life of their own.

So, if it will help to clarify, and keeping in mind that this wasn't my OP so I'm hijacking a bit, my two questions were really these:

1. Not actually knowing much about RM (and, significantly I thought, not really hearing/seeing much about them here), how good are they actually? As I said earlier, it may be guilt by association, but seeing a +$500 M-1 or deck jacket, I wondered if their G-1s for instance were actually better than say GW, or was there a premium markup across the board since it came from Japan?

This impression of a Japan premium, is my own personal feeling based on other goods that I had purchased in or from Japan previously: watches, aircraft models, etc. Thus I have a certain "worth exchange rate" in my mind and expect Japan market goods to be more expensive...like the way that my grandfather still thought a quarter was an adequate amount of money to "buy yourself something nice!"

I understand now that they seem to be highly regarded. Personally, as I indicated, some of the more inventive examples strike me as being somewhat ahistorical, and thus not to my own tastes, but I fully understand Big J's point that fashion requires new product to generate continued interest.

2. Being that RM's prices are at a premium (justified or otherwise), my second question, perhaps more rhetorical than I adequately expressed, was, "Is your average New Yorker with some ka-ching in their pockets going to understand the value difference between RM and, just as an example, The Cockpit which has become something of a fashion institution in NY?"

So, really less, "Is RM worth 4x the Cockpit?" which, as I think we've shown, is a wholly subjective question and more "Will a non-jacket enthusiast think that an RM is worth 4x the Cockpit?"

I was a pilot, and I knew many pilots, and most of then balk when I tell them how much I am paying for my GW, even my ELC. So, even a proud Navy/Marine pilot, steeped in G-1 tradition, does not think that these jacket prices are "reasonable"; myself and some of the other former military pilots here notwithstanding. So I think it's fair to say that those who appreciate the nuances of an ELC, or Aero, or GW, or RM are not the average Joe.

So my original, idle, question was really whether the New York crowd, who also tend to be willing to pay a premium, would find RM's prices acceptable. If so, then there would be another jacket contender in the U.S.. If not, perhaps RM would not last long in the states.

So, if my musing caused an escalation of what was originally an informational thread, please excuse me. I was more trying to inform my musings than tell others what they should find something to be worth.



...Edit, Sorry, hit Reply early. Finished the treatise now.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Big J]

Hehe, well I think even the best intentioned threads take on a life of their own.

So, if it will help to clarify, and keeping in mind that this wasn't my OP so I'm hijacking a bit, my two questions were really these:

1. Not actually knowing much about RM (and, significantly I thought, not really hearing/seeing much about them here), how good are they actually? As I said earlier, it may be guilt by association, but seeing a +$500 M-1 or deck jacket, I wondered if their G-1s for instance were actually better than say GW, or was there a premium markup across the board since it came from Japan?

This impression of a Japan premium, is my own personal feeling based on other goods that I had purchased in or from Japan previously: watches, aircraft models, etc and so almost certainly a solidified "worth exchange rate" in my mind like the way that my grandfather still thought a quarter was an adequate amount of money to "buy yourself something nice!"

I understand now that they seem to be highly regarded. Personally, as I indicated, some of the more inventive examples strike me as being somewhat ahistorical, and thus not to my own tastes, but I fully understand Big J's point that fashion requires new product to generate continued interest.

2. Being that RM's prices are at a premium (justified or otherwise), my second question, perhaps more rhetorical than I adequately expressed, was, "Is your average New Yorker with some ka-ching in their pockets going to understand the value difference between RM and, just as an example, The Cockpit which has become something of a fashion institution in NY?"


...Edit, Sorry hit reply by accident. Still working on this

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Those are all good questions, it's been a lively debate, and everyone has said their mind without being rude/upsetting anyone. I think that's a good result.

 

[Carlos840]

I think all those negative comments and criticism starts to get to him just as it got to the recent DD thread next door. That thread started off very detail and very informative about sharing a recent purchase then people started criticizing and the owner felt that he had to defend his purchase by turning the table on RM saying things like how RM is underwhelming and he would rather buy 2 Eastman than one RM for the price.

Similarly, Deacon started by simply asking if RM is any good and how does it compare to Goodwear then it somehow got to "is RM worth 4 times the price of a Cockpit?". It then got me off hence my comment about justifying somethings' worth here.

I am the owner of the DD jacket you mentionned, i didnt feel i had to defend my purchase by turning the table on RM!
I handled a RM and gave my honest opinion about it. After all i had read about them being the holy grail of japanese leather i was expecting the highest of craftsmanship and leather, i personally didnt see it.
I buy jackets for my enjoyment, not to get validated by strangers on a forum. My review of the DD buco was there to help people thinking about making a purchase, that's it... I was the first to criticize it, knowing that the things i mentionned would probably never have been spotted by the average person.
Now, the RM J100, maybe i just saw a friday afternoon jacket, maybe the one i saw was the exception to the rule, but there was no way i would have paid £1200 for it when i could buy 2 Eastmans or 2 Aero for that money. Thats my opinion, and i stand by it.
Would i buy it for £700 or £800? Yeah, sure, it's a nice jacket, it's just not as incredible as people led me to believe they were.

 

[Benj]

This is why I've been trying to say that real McCoys makes nice leathers but they're still human, I was annoyed with people holding them in such high regards and being disappointed when they realized it's just a normal jacket.

Hate overhyping...

 

[Big J]

@ Monitor, Dudewuttheheck,

I don't want to derail the thread (more than I guess I already have), but I won't say anything about DD 'behind his back' as it were, so I'll just say it here where he can read it if he wants.

I'm sure that DD makes great hats, and his buddy the 'A-2 jacket patch' guy makes great patches.

I don't know anything about DD's jackets, I've avoided the threads about them on the Lounge because my problem is with DD, not Loungers who bought his jackets.

My feeling is that JC is a great guy, he communicates politely on this and other forums and by e-mail, and makes a great product for which he is respected. I think that going into business making Goodwear jackets has had a bad effect on DD. IMHO he seems to see himself as 'the chosen one', the 'under dog one man show chosen by the best of the best to join the top of the big league', and this seems to have inflated his ego/unbalanced his mind, to the point where he really thinks that he can insult and blow off not only people like Ken Calder, but also any potential customer that dares to disagree with him. He's a jumped up little Hitler at the VLJ forum, basking in John Chapman's reflected glow (in his own mind at least).
I guess some people don't know how to deal with success. But he's 'made it' now, so screw every one else.

So, I will never buy anything else from him.

His attitude is so aggressive, and vindictive, that you have to wonder if it is a contributing factor in the relative lack of debate/participation at VLJ. I for one, can't be bothered to go back and deal with him and his ego. For vendors, it's an attitude that is driving away potential customers.
His buddy 'A-2 Jacket Patches' guy is emboldened side-kick to DD who has an argumentative aggressive attitude to new comers in 'his territory' facilitated by the fact that he sees DD being rude with no repercussions, and has learnt that he can do it too (provided he doesn't disagree with DD).

Nasty pair who appear to have mental health problems, committing professional suicide.

I would rather give my money to RMJ (give, not buy a jacket) than buy a jacket from DD, I don't care who his patron is, and I hope it all works out for JC, but I can't imagine that DD can learn to be a nice person.

 

[Carlos840]

Big J,

I'm not surprised by what you wrote, i had a phone conversation with Dave after receiving the first jacket he sent me, and i almost cancelled my order then he was so rude to me. I had already spent money on customs and shipping so i decided to give him a chance and see if jacket number 2 would be better, but his customer service was definitely bad.

 

[Big J]

Big J,

I'm not surprised by what you wrote, i had a phone conversation with Dave after receiving the first jacket he sent me, and i almost cancelled my order then he was so rude to me. I had already spent money on customs and shipping so i decided to give him a chance and see if jacket number 2 would be better, but his customer service was definitely bad.

Hi Carlos,

I'm sorry to hear that, that must have been very aggravating for you.
Stu over at LW's has got a bad rep in the past for his attitude from many people (I have an LW jacket, and never had any problems at all with the guy) and some people have said that his jackets don't deserve the reputation and high prices that they have (although my jacket from LW's is really, really good).
Maybe DD is suffering from a similar condition? Hit and miss quality, absolute conviction that he is the second coming?
I don't know.

 

[Monitor]

TBH, I've never heard a single complaint about Stu's behavior when it comes to personal communication of any sort. I think the bad rep that's following the guy comes only from those ramblings he's got posted on the LW site, but when it comes to customer service, Stu has supposedly always been a gentlemen to work with. That, and I've never seen anyone here getting a wonky jacket from LW.

 

[nick123]

Maybe DD is in some kind of a funk. It happens to us occasionally. I know, when you pay good money for something and you get less than anticipated results and a bad attitude, you're ****** and it shouldn't result in an unsatisfactory jacket for a customer. But I think he deserves a second chance and maybe some kind of encouragement. I'm sure he has it in him to get back on the tracks. If people have already come to conclusions, especially those who have recently purchased a jacket they weren't happy with, that's totally ok. I'm just trying to throw some light at the end of the tunnel instead of focusing on the cabooses.

 

[Big J]

TBH, I've never heard a single complaint about Stu's behavior when it comes to personal communication of any sort. I think the bad rep that's following the guy comes only from those ramblings he's got posted on the LW site, but when it comes to customer service, Stu has supposedly always been a gentlemen to work with. That, and I've never seen anyone here getting a wonky jacket from LW.

Well, like I said, I've never had any problem with Stu or his work, but if you go way back into the archives, there are some posts by people who were, shall we say, less satisfied than you or I.

 

[Big J]

Maybe DD is in some kind of a funk. It happens to us occasionally. I know, when you pay good money for something and you get less than anticipated results and a bad attitude, you're ****** and it shouldn't result in an unsatisfactory jacket for a customer. But I think he deserves a second chance and maybe some kind of encouragement. I'm sure he has it in him to get back on the tracks. If people have already come to conclusions, especially those who have recently purchased a jacket they weren't happy with, that's totally ok. I'm just trying to throw some light at the end of the tunnel instead of focusing on the cabooses.

Maybe.
Maybe not.
I think that DD believes that I am 'not worthy' to post on the same forum as him, he was offended that I even dare to have an opinion. He won't get a second chance from me without an apology first, and he certainly doesn't deserve (or indeed need) any further 'encouragement', he's a total jerk. Light at the end of the tunnel? Why bother; go darker and deeper DD, never come back.

*I might be feeling especially vindictive because I'm desperately craving a cigarette, who knows[huh]

 

[nick123]

Maybe.
Maybe not.
I think that DD believes that I am 'not worthy' to post on the same forum as him, he was offended that I even dare to have an opinion. He won't get a second chance from me without an apology first, and he certainly doesn't deserve (or indeed need) any further 'encouragement', he's a total jerk. Light at the end of the tunnel? Why bother; go darker and deeper DD, never come back.

*I might be feeling especially vindictive because I'm desperately craving a cigarette, who knows[huh]

There is light at the end of your tunnel too. Remember, if you cave in, you'll have to start over again. Don't give in. I woke up this morning with a horrible cough. Don't be me. Don't smoke.