Real McCoy's USA web store open

[CBI]

RW makes nice stuff no question. For A-2's, the most freakishly authentic down to the millionth degree is GW. If there is any hostility in re RM prices, its come from years ago. RM items had always been the highest priced or close to it. GW, ELC, Aero used to be significant less in re leather but that has changed and the price differential is not as large. For me, looking at the RM catalogue as a whole, the prices are too high for what I feel is comfortable to pay for such items. Pricing across the board with all makers has gone up enough to wear its close to prohibitive. I buy used now and have for some time. There are still good deals every once and a while. A few times a year and I'm good.

 

[Blackadder]

Well for me personally, I've only ever seen pics of the RM stuff which is what causes me to ask.

Also for me personally, accuracy is pretty important in my sense of what a jacket is worth. I don't really know how accurate RM's stuff is, but I recall seeing a few things that made me go, "hmmm, that's odd" like contrasting knits etc. so again I just wonder for my own purposes.

Beyond that though, I think that there is a bit of guilt by association in my "impressions" of RM leather. Maybe their leather jackets are $300 better than GW. But, when I look at their cloth gear prices, I just flat out call shenanigans.

It may be immaculately researched and use accurate materials, but I just can't get past the fact that it's nylon or cloth. In my mind, there's no nylon in the world that is worth half a grand or more. I could entirely be missing something, but it surpasses my personal threshold.

And so, my first correlation is that if X seems double or triple what I think it's worth, then is Y similarly overpriced?

And again, the question for me then is, will a New Yorker walk into the Cockpit and then walk into RM and think that the latter is worth 4x the price of the former? Will they appreciate the attention to detail?

If the RM leather is really light years ahead of the other makers, maybe that will carve RM it's own niche...after all I just look for authentic flying gear so I don't know Front Quarter Horse Hide from Rear Quarter donkey hide, But I can still recognize a beautiful piece of leather.

I'm not sure that quite constitutes hate though.


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I would not say RM is light years ahead. For example, I have both the Buzz and the RM N-1 and I remember the RM is 1.5 times the price of my Buzz. I bought the Buzz first thinking about the same thing that the RM is a bit heavier, firmer and have little more bits of details but it probably does not worth 50% more. Well for me, I ended up buying the RM too because it wasn't a rational thing.

Often times, you see people trying to justify, rationalise the price difference.
At one time, the yen was so high that it was too expensive for me to buy any of the Japanese A-2s let alone RM. I ended up buying an A-2 from LW, BK and Aero each in a month. I still have the BK and the Aero (LW was sold because it does not fit) but I ended up buying 3 more A-2s from Japanese makers after the yen came down. (Those A-2s are only marginally more expensive than a Eastman or BK because as said I live in a tax and duty free zone.)

In the thread next door, it is said that the leather of RM's Buco J-100 has no grain that it is thin and light, stitching is not exactly perfect therefore it is not really worth the price and the RM's A-2 is not worth twice the price of Eastman and Aero.
I have a Schott, a Vanson and a Lewis Leather jacket. All made with better stitching better precision than the DD. All costs less than DD. Take my Vanson Comet for example, the competition cowhide is heavier than DD, it has lots of grain, the work is more precise and it costs about half the price of the DD. By the same logic used, one can argue that one should buy two Comets in stead of the DD. Well, I am contemplating buying a J-21 from DD despite all those.

We also see people comparing Vanson and Langlitz but no one seems to put so focus on if Langlitz is worth twice and three times the price of a Vanson. (I would buy a Langlitz if I could find one in a slim cut).

It is simply not logical when one is buying non-essentials!!! We are not buying detergent in bulk so the "value for money" is not IMHO very relevant. Deep down you all know that because you all know Langlitz and Vanson.

Finally, some fellow loungers have mentioned how Aero, LW are sold in Japan off the rack. The Aero and LW costs more in Japan despite Japanese consumption tax being only 8%. Same goes for RM in Western countries. The reseller needs to take a cut, the transportation costs etc all contribute to the high price or it may have something to do with your Gov't trying their best to protect your local companies.

And yes some people like me who go into the RM shop are just posers who don't fly nor own a bike like those who go into the Cockpit shop.

 

[Benj]

I think that price is a fair topic, it is important. On the other hand, imo the prices we should be discussing are what the makers charge for their goods, not just what resellers overseas are selling it for vs what a domestic brand in their home country sells theirs for. Provided at least one can reasonably acquire the overseas brand at the original retail price, which in the case of the RMC you can.

Since the yen has been so terrible, I got my RMC for 200 cheaper than a good wear, immediately, no 2 year wait. That's an appreciable difference for a jacket that, imo, is at least as high quality as the Good Wear. I bet you Dave Himel and John would agree too, yet you never hear that side of the story except from very few people. Instead I hear that RMC is $2000 made for tiny children, without any character in the leather. Which simply isn't true.

 

[Big J]

I 'hate' RMC/The Few/BR because they don't make anything in my size! lol

I think they are just plain trying it on at those prices; only Japanese shoppers who haven't got the English language skills and the patience to order from Aero, ELC would pay these days, when there is a choice.

The Japanese were way ahead of their time in offering these hyper-accurate repros, but the same standard has been achieved by JC, Aero, ELC IMHO (my A-2s from Aero last year are at least as good, if not better, in terms of construction and materials that the Japanese jackets I see here).

Accuracy? Yeah, to justify the prices, the product range needs to change every Fall/Winter season, hence BR's various patched jackets. RMC does this by offering 'unusual' knit/thread combinations, and unusual hide choices (deer skin G-1, deer skin A-1? a few years back). Last year they were selling a G-1 made from horse hide. This is total FARB (I believe the expression is), but it's all aimed at the Japanese consumer; they want a G-1 made from a cowboy's horse GAWDDAM1T!

20 years ago, the Japanese would have been the best choice, but now western companies have caught up, and at a more competitive price point too! Not only that, but the Japanese are addicted to an 'off the peg' business model. Japanese customers are getting screwed.

 

[Blackadder]

BigJ, you live in Japan. Does the RM costs really that much over an Aero or ELC? LOL.

I don't speak Japanese and I paid 160,000 yen (around USD 1,500 at the time) for my J-100 ordering directly from RM Nagoya Japan (back when they still ship overseas free of charge last year).

I agree with you about the size and cut point. As said, I would buy a Langlitz if they are not made in such a generous cut.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Very well said Blackadder. I think you are absolutely right that logic is not always in place when we buy things like this, which is absolutely fine!!!

I love my DD and also want an RMC. They are total opposites in most ways: one man operation vs. company, US vs Japan, neat and tight vs less neat stitching, better fit (DD) vs worse fit for me (RMC). Only similarities are that they are both made from shinki and are both J-100s

I am glad we have a fair amount of choice right now

 

[Big J]

Very well said Blackadder. I think you are absolutely right that logic is not always in place when we buy things like this, which is absolutely fine!!!

I love my DD and also want an RMC. They are total opposites in most ways: one man operation vs. company, US vs Japan, neat and tight vs less neat stitching, better fit (DD) vs worse fit for me (RMC). Only similarities are that they are both made from shinki and are both J-100s

I am glad we have a fair amount of choice right now

Well, choice is never a bad thing, and these Japanese companies churning out production line repros have created the market for high quality repro zippers, knits, rivets, press studs, and throat latches, many of which are also supplied to JC, Aero, ELC. So it's not something I'd ever want to see end.

 

[Big J]

BigJ, you live on Japan. Does the RM costs really that much over an Aero or ELC? LOL.

I don't speak Japanese and I paid 160,000 yen (around USD 1,500 at the time) for my J-100 ordering directly from RM Nagoya Japan (back when they still ship overseas free of charge last year).

I agree with you about the size and cut point. As said, I would buy a Langlitz if they are not made in such a generous cut.

Blackadder, there is all sorts going on.
List prices for leather from the Japanese companies can be the same as ordering a similar item from ELC or Aero where civilian designs are concerned. But when it comes to military repros, I think that the cheapest models list prices are the same as (if not more than) Aero/ELC. And those are the cheapest models. Famous contract repros, speciality leathers, it all sends the prices higher into Goodwear territory, for what is essentially an off the peg jacket.

The weak ¥ right now makes it seem cheaper than it was in 2012 (when the ¥ was about 40% stronger). Interestingly, the weak ¥ pushes up prices due to increased materials import costs in ¥.

However, many of these jackets end up being ordered by speciality boutique stores, where they seem to sit on a hanger for 6 months with a significant mark-up. At the end of the season, these jackets can be had for a significant price reduction, as the boutiques attempt to sell them to clear space (seriously, I don't know how these stores stay in business).

Personally, for Goodwear kind of money (which is what these Japanese repros are), I demand a made to order jacket.

 

[Blackadder]

Blackadder, there is all sorts going on.
List prices for leather from the Japanese companies can be the same as ordering a similar item from ELC or Aero where civilian designs are concerned. But when it comes to military repros, I think that the cheapest models list prices are the same as (if not more than) Aero/ELC. And those are the cheapest models. Famous contract repros, speciality leathers, it all sends the prices higher into Goodwear territory, for what is essentially an off the peg jacket.

The weak ¥ right now makes it seem cheaper than it was in 2012 (when the ¥ was about 40% stronger). Interestingly, the weak ¥ pushes up prices due to increased materials import costs in ¥.

However, many of these jackets end up being ordered by speciality boutique stores, where they seem to sit on a hanger for 6 months with a significant mark-up. At the end of the season, these jackets can be had for a significant price reduction, as the boutiques attempt to sell them to clear space (seriously, I don't know how these stores stay in business).

Personally, for Goodwear kind of money (which is what these Japanese repros are), I demand a made to order jacket.

I guess you meant Buzz and RM by that. I agree the leather used on the base Buzz and RM models are not very desirable. The Few are all contract repros except those cheap made for Gorilla models which are sold under the Gorilla label. Leather used on Pherrow's non-contract models (basically all Pherrow's clothings are non-contract models) are not bad. I quite like the tan leather A-2 they made a couple of seasons back.

You are also right about the boutiques having sale. I guess that's what boutiques do with off season clothing all over the world. I bought all three of my Rainbow Country at a significant discount from the same shop on Yahoo Auction (from Goodwear price reduced to ELC price LOL). I would really love to get a Goodwear but the wait time simply countered the buying urge and impulse.

 

[Edward]

It may be immaculately researched and use accurate materials, but I just can't get past the fact that it's nylon or cloth. In my mind, there's no nylon in the world that is worth half a grand or more. I could entirely be missing something, but it surpasses my personal threshold.

I understand you exactly. I struggle too with the price of nylon jackets being "leather" money. Rationally, I can see the man hours, the skillset, the patterning.... A lot of it is the same as for leather, the cost of raw materials being only one, small part of the overall. And yet.... I guess it's just conditioning.... [huh] I know it's irrational, but....

 

[CBI]

Can't agree at all that just because something is a non-essential item that the price sort of doesn't matter. Price is a HUGE factor. We all have bills, rents, car payments, kids? etc. Money for extra "fun" stuff is always in short supply unless one is really well off! For many, this puts RM and similar makers out of reach. If one jacket is $700 and another is $1,000, yes $300 is a notable difference for many. $1,000 vs. $1,500....yep that is something to consider with life's many other expenses!

In re the GW wait, totally worth it. Make a deposit, slowly save and in the interim, buy other jackets if the need is there.

 

[Monitor]

For no particular reason, I don't like RMC. They make some of the nicest jackets I've seen, but this Japanese obsession with cosplaying irks me.

 

[Blackadder]

Oh I agree with you about limited resources and putting your money to the best use but it is not choosing between jackets. It is between you children's college fund and your jacket.
I think you completely missed my point. Price is a huge factor when it comes to affordability but you seem to be equating affordability with worthiness.
To put it bluntly. Does a Goodwear make you fly? Does a Goodwear make you go faster than if you are in an Aero? It is not like your Goodwear will outlast a RM.
Be it a Goodwear, a DD or a RM, you want the USD1500 jacket so you justify it by saying it is worth every penny. I just don’t see why someone would need to or can justify buying a USD1500 jacket at all, at least not here (one may need to make every effort to justify to one's significant other). We buy things because we need them or we like them and we can afford to not because it is worth the price. We see women justifying their purchase of a USD10,000 Birkin and we often laugh about it and yet we are doing the same thing here too? Is sharing your purchase not enough?

 

[handymike]

My GW makes me go faster than others
but I've given up trying to justify it to my wife.

 

[Monitor]

Oh I agree with you about limited resources and putting your money to the best use but it is not choosing between jackets. It is between you children's college fund and your jacket.
I think you completely missed my point. Price is a huge factor when it comes to affordability but you seem to be equating affordability with worthiness.
To put it bluntly. Does a Goodwear make you fly? Does a Goodwear make you go faster than if you are in an Aero? It is not like your Goodwear will outlast a RM.
Be it a Goodwear, a DD or a RM, you want the USD1500 jacket so you justify it by saying it is worth every penny. I just don’t see why someone would need to or can justify buying a USD1500 jacket at all, at least not here (one may need to make every effort to justify to one's significant other). We buy things because we need them or we like them and we can afford to not because it is worth the price. We see women justifying their purchase of a USD10,000 Birkin and we often laugh about it and yet we are doing the same thing here too? Is sharing your purchase not enough?

Truth.

 

[Big J]

Oh I agree with you about limited resources and putting your money to the best use but it is not choosing between jackets. It is between you children's college fund and your jacket.
I think you completely missed my point. Price is a huge factor when it comes to affordability but you seem to be equating affordability with worthiness.
To put it bluntly. Does a Goodwear make you fly? Does a Goodwear make you go faster than if you are in an Aero? It is not like your Goodwear will outlast a RM.
Be it a Goodwear, a DD or a RM, you want the USD1500 jacket so you justify it by saying it is worth every penny. I just don’t see why someone would need to or can justify buying a USD1500 jacket at all, at least not here (one may need to make every effort to justify to one's significant other). We buy things because we need them or we like them and we can afford to not because it is worth the price. We see women justifying their purchase of a USD10,000 Birkin and we often laugh about it and yet we are doing the same thing here too? Is sharing your purchase not enough?

Well, I'd never buy a jacket from Diamond Dave because he's was just so offensive and rude to me, even if his jackets were only 100 bucks, my skin would crawl every time someone asked me where I got it, and I'd have to reply 'Diamond Dave'. No thanks.
As for value for money, Goodwear and Aero are made to measure, so yeah, it's worth it. But the same price for an off the peg jacket with no personalized fitting? No thank you! Because this isn't WWII, I'm not a conscript, and the jacket hasn't been issued to me for free. I'm a customer choosing where and how I spend my money- I expect choices.

 

[nick123]

As The Remains once wisely chanted in 1966, "Don't Look Back"...buy the RMC/Himel/GW and just enjoy it without regret. Just don't tell your wife.

 

[CBI]

Hey adder - yep I guess we may be talking in circles as I am not trying to justify anything in relation to price or equate cost with worthiness.

Just basing things on how they look, how authentic the recreations are etc IMO of course. I am coming from the repro angle having owned MANY originals.

But, I do agree that sometimes people justify outrageous priced items because they want them.

There's something else to with these forums that I hate and is perhaps more of an issue.

Many folks try to justify that whatever jacket(s) they have is "the Best" because they own them. Or........f they are hard up for cash, trashing awesome jackets since said "trasher" is unable to afford them.

Not saying you are doing that but frankly, it makes it tough to have the most simple forum discussions................

 

[ykurtz]

Regarding Langlitz as not being slim enough, that may be true in the used market but you can get a new one from them measured perfectly for your dimensions. I have a 42.5 chest and 32 waist and my jackets from them fit perfectly: there is nothing roomy about them.

 

[Big J]

Interesting that everyone seems to be completely ignoring the fact that whilst RMC, The Few, BR are at the top of the price range, they don't offer custom fitting, which cheaper non-japanese manufacturers do.

I wonder why no one comments on this?

After all, everyone expects bespoke tailoring to cost more than off the peg suits, but conversely, everyone is curiously quiet about it when it comes to flight jackets...