human swastika

[Marc Chevalier]

Shalom, Daisy. I'm not Jewish, but still: shalom.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is this: why would a re-enactor not be so offended by that black uniform's symbolism, that he would not want to own it and wear it? In other words, what is so good about the black uniform, that it outweighs the bad sufficiently for a re-enactor to own it?

I don't understand, but I'm willing to hear all explanations.

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[MrBern]

tankers or panzers

Black uniforms...
Lets not forget that the SS werent the only ones to wear black uniforms. The Armor did as well. A panzer crewman was not necessarily into nazi politics. However the SS was formed to be Hitler's bodyguard & special police force, then got expanded to other duties like concentraion camp administration.
-bernard

This bothers me more than the swastika. After all, the type of "black German uniform" you speak of was designed for one purpose only: to clothe men whose job was to liquidate entire peoples. That particular "black German uniform" was not "borrowed" more or less intact from the Buddhists, Jains, Native Americans, or any other group. It was created in 1930s Germany to strike terror, and to empower the terrorizers.

If I were an actor in Schindler's List, I'd wear the uniform, because that film specifically shows the evil behind it. If I were a re-enactor, getting a kick out of playacting war, then I wouldn't let this uniform get near my skin or even my closet. I'd donate it to a Holocaust remembrance museum.

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[Marc Chevalier]

Let's not forget that the SS werent the only ones to wear black uniforms. The Armor did as well. A panzer crewman was not necessarily into Nazi politics.

Well, if TwoToneDeuce has an Armor-esque uniform -- and he wears it to look like a panzer crewman, and not an SS officer -- then that changes things. I get the impression, though, that he doesn't have the Armor-type of uniform.

... the SS was formed to be Hitler's bodyguard & special police force, then got expanded to other duties like concentraion camp administration.

That's evil enough for me. No re-enactor wearing a black SS-esque uniform will get far by telling me, "It's ok! I'm pre-Wannsee Conference SS!"


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[MrBern]

Shalom, Daisy. I'm not Jewish, but still: shalom.

I guess what I'm trying to understand is this: why would a re-enactor not be so offended by that black uniform's symbolism, that he would not want to own it and wear it? In other words, what is so good about the black uniform, that it outweighs the bad sufficiently for a re-enactor to own it?

I don't understand, but I'm willing to hear all explanations.

.

Actually, I've met VETERANS who have spoken fondly over how beautiful they thought the german officers uniforms. Some traded for them as trophies to bring home.
I've also seen some reenactors parading around at the winter battle in their SS gear & it strikes me mostly as vanity. Tho it wouldnt surprise me if some were neo-nazi jerks.
I have seen some stupidity where reenactors have galavanted about dressed as Hitler or Mengele thinking its funny.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Actually, I've me VETERANS who have spoken fondly over how beautiful they thought the german officers uniforms.

I find those particular veterans as scary as today's SS uniform-owning re-enactors.


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[PrettySquareGal]

I find those particular veterans as scary as today's SS uniform-owning re-enactors.


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Agreed.

And Daisy- I never said I was Jewish either, probably for the same reasons you have- that *some* people will prejudge you for it, and make assumptions, and maybe worse. However, in my years I am more saddened by what I see in those who are anti-Semitic, rather than what those people project onto me/Jewish people. I am not religious in the least, but will always defend my heritage.

People have the right to be anti-Semitic (in legal ways), it's a free country. I have learned to accept that even though I do not like it. But to defend it as celebrating history, or to minimize the significance of powerful tools of hate is pathetic.

That's all I will say about it.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Actually, I've me VETERANS who have spoken fondly over how beautiful they thought the german officers uniforms. Some traded for them as trophies to bring home.
I've also seen some reenactors parading around at the winter battle in their SS gear & it strikes me mostly as vanity. Tho it wouldnt surprise me if some were neo-nazi jerks.
I have seen some stupidity where reenactors have galavanted about dressed as Hitler or Mengele thinking its funny.

It's one thing to take the uniform home and have it as a symbol of how much you hated the SS and kicked their butts. It's another to dress up like Hitler or Mengele because it's funny. Any person who does that, no matter how funny they think it is, can not have a like of Jewish people.

No Marc, I don't think that TwoTone is wearing the uniform in that manner. It's sad to me that some are working very hard to defend the swastika. If you hate what it stands for so much, why bother defending it with such passion? With this kind of defense, I'm not wrong to assume that you like what it stands for. I hope I am not crossing the line here, and this is directed to no one in particular, but if one dresses like a Nazi, doesn't that mean that they are one?? Just saying what I'd think if I ever saw someone wearing the uniform of one. I just can't imagine that there would be any good justification for putting one on. I don't see the "fun" in it....

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Agreed.

And Daisy- I never said I was Jewish either, probably for the same reasons you have- that *some* people will prejudge you for it, and make assumptions, and maybe worse. However, in my years I am more saddened by what I see in those who are anti-Semitic, rather than what those people project onto me/Jewish people. I am not religious in the least, but will always defend my heritage.

People have the right to be anti-Semitic (in legal ways), it's a free country. I have learned to accept that even though I do not like it. But to defend it as celebrating history, or to minimize the significance of powerful tools of hate is pathetic.

That's all I will say about it.

Thank you for that. I was worried that I was reading too much into this. I'm not glad that you are feeling this too, but I am relieved that someone else is seeing the insanity of what has been written here, mostly of the scary defense of wearing an SS Uniform and displaying the swastika as part of history. If we were talking about how it was a symbol of a terrorist regime, and of the horrors of it, I'd be more understanding. Just way too many people defending it, and falling on the "we must know our history" defense. Tell the history of the terror's it caused.
I'm not religious either, but am very proud of my heritage. I have people in my family who survived the SS and it's camps. I've heard the accounts first hand. There is nothing to be proud of in relishing that symbol.
Thanks again for coming out....

 

[MrBern]

That's evil enough for me. No re-enactor wearing a black SS-esque uniform will get far by telling me, "It's ok! I'm pre-Wannsee Conference SS!"
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Absolutely.

I think its interesting that some reenactors prefer WWI, so they can dress up as Austrian soldiers & not deal with nazi stigmatism.
Please keep in mind some reenactors really do want to emulate a connection w/ a family member who served in a previous war. And they are curious about their heritage, the nationality their family bore before coming to America.

But I dont hold too much humour for the SS reenactors.

 

[MrBern]

Britannica

swastika
Equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, all in the same rotary direction, usually clockwise. It is used widely throughout the world as a symbol of prosperity and good fortune. In India, it continues to be the most common auspicious symbol of Hindus and Jains, as well as for Buddhists, for whom it symbolizes the Buddha’s feet or footprints. In China and Japan, where it traveled with the spread of Buddhism, it has been used to denote plurality, prosperity, and long life. It occurs as a motif in early Christian and Byzantine art, as well as in Maya and Navajo art. The counterclockwise swastika, suggested as a general anti-Semitic symbol in 1910 by the German poet and nationalist Guido von List, was adopted as the symbol of the Nazi Party at its founding in 1919–20.

For more information on swastika, visit Britannica.com.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I have people in my family who survived the SS and it's camps....

Thanks again for coming out....

I also come from a family of survivors. I know what it's like to stand alone; I'm a Yankee fan in New England (BAD HUMOR), but also I know what it's like to feel like the lone Jew. I've been there too many times. I don't allow it to happen to others when I see it.

 

[MrBern]

the hindu form

From Wikipedia:
Since its adoption by the Nazi Party of Adolf Hitler the swastika has been associated with fascism, racism (white supremacy), World War II, and the Holocaust in much of the Western world. Before this it had seen a resurgence in recognition from the archaeological work of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans ("Aryan" peoples). He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorised that the swastika was a "significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors", linking ancient German, Greek and Vedic culture.[1] [2]

Nazi use arose from this idea, developing from earlier v??lkisch movements, for which the swastika was a symbol of "Aryan" identity, a concept that came to be equated by theorists like Alfred Rosenberg with a Nordic master race originating in northern Europe. The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi groups, and is also regularly used by activist groups to signify the supposed Nazi-like behaviour of organizations and individuals they oppose.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Making a point on a point..

I'd call this a false comparison. If the Civil War had produced its own version of the SS, then I'd agree with you. If re-enactors dressed up as early Klansmen, then I'd agree with you again. Thankfully, they don't (or do they?)
I have no problem with those who re-enact the roles of servicemen in Nazi Germany's regular army, navy, or air force. That said, the SS was quite another creature, was it not?
.

Oddly enough, Nazi Germany inherited a regualar army and navy from the Imperial government that abdicated during WWI. Germany was prohibited from having an Air Force by the Versaille Treaty; it was the National Socialist regime that created an Air Force (Luftwaffe) from a cadre of state sponsored aviation clubs. The Luftwaffe was a creation of the National Socialist government that came to power in 1933 and was commanded by Nazi second in command, Herman Goering - a Nazi. Prior to September 1939 they were the envy of the world for the technological advances. Our own national hero Charles Lindbergh gave speaches praising the Luftwaffe.

It's a point - not particularly relevent, but interesting in the grand scheme of things.

-dixon cannon

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Oddly enough, Nazi Germany inherited a regualar army and navy from the Imperial government that abdicated during WWI. Germany was prohibited from having an Air Force by the Versaille Treaty; it was the National Socialist regime that created an Air Force (Luftwaffe) from a cadre of state sponsored aviation clubs. The Luftwaffe was a creation of the National Socialist government that came to power in 1933 and was commanded by Nazi second in command, Herman Goering - a Nazi. Prior to September 1939 they were the envy of the world for the technological advances. Our own national hero Charles Lindbergh gave speaches praising the Luftwaffe.

It's a point - not particularly relevent, but interesting in the grand scheme of things.

-dixon cannon

So, I'm just making sure I've got this right. You do re-enact as a Luftwaffe, and although you don't wear the "decoration" of the swastika, you do wear the uniform? So in fact, you do dress as part of the Nazi regime. I sense pride coming from your writings. I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can wear the uniform and still not be on the side of the regime? You are deeply defending it. Something that is well tolerated and widely accepted does not need such a passionate defense. Did you choose to re-enact this particular party? Or were you assigned the uniform? You couldn't pay me enough to dress like that. And no, saying that the uniform is handsome and nice is not a reason to wear it. I have seen plenty of suits out their that are beautiful and not affiliated with a terrorist regime. If you really hated it, despised what it stands for, wouldn't you choose to re-enact a different type of soldier? I may be wrong, and I aplogize in advance if I am but, you seem to have to have some positive feelings for it to be able to wear it, and defend it so passionatly.

 

[MrBern]

Hey Daisy darling,
I'm not gonna defend the nazis or the nerds.
I just want to point out that not every German was a Nazi.
Just as Italy began the war as a fascist state, then was liberated of Mussolini's regime.
Recently I watched a documentary on the sinking of the Hood by the Bismarck. It pointed out that when Hitler met w/ the crew. The Captain did give the nazi salute. He gave a military salute & I believe he shook hands. He had a jewish grandparent & was decidely not a nazi. The documentary pointed out that in the German Navy, there were definitely jewish officers.

if you ever view The Eagle Has Landed, a fun `70s movie about Nazis plotting to assassinate Churchill, the movie begins w/ A paratrooper officer
enabling a jew to escape on a train. Then he & the SS officer get in each other's face & guns are drawn. Its fictional, but it depicts that there were some honorable military men who mutinied against the Nazis but tried to serve their country.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I just want to point out that not every German was a Nazi.

Yeah. Lots of them were Jews.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Hey Daisy darling,
I'm not gonna defend the nazis or the nerds.
I just want to point out that not every German was a Nazi.
Just as Italy began the war as a fascist state, then was liberated of Mussolini's regime.
Recently I watched a documentary on the sinking of the Hood by the Bismarck. It pointed out that when Hitler met w/ the crew. The Captain did give the nazi salute. He gave a military salute & I believe he shook hands. He had a jewish grandparent & was decidely not a nazi. The documentary pointed out that in the German Navy, there were definitely jewish officers.

if you ever view The Eagle Has Landed, a fun `70s movie about Nazis plotting to assassinate Churchill, the movie begins w/ A paratrooper officer
enabling a jew to escape on a train. Then he & the SS officer get in each other's face & guns are drawn. Its fictional, but it depicts that there were some honorable military men who mutinied against the Nazis but tried to serve their country.

I understand that not all German's are Nazi's. I know of a lot of stories of German citizens hiding Jewish families, risking there own well being. But, is the Luftwaffe not a part of the regime, under the rule of a high ranking nazi officer?
Thanks though, for your explanation. I just can't find any defense for wearing the uniform of such a group. I think it does say somthing about the people wearing them. It's more than a strange fascination, to me.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

So, I'm just making sure I've got this right. You do re-enact as a Luftwaffe, and although you don't wear the "decoration" of the swastika, you do wear the uniform? So in fact, you do dress as part of the Nazi regime. I sense pride coming from your writings. I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can wear the uniform and still not be on the side of the regime? You are deeply defending it. Something that is well tolerated and widely accepted does not need such a passionate defense. Did you choose to re-enact this particular party? Or were you assigned the uniform? You couldn't pay me enough to dress like that. And no, saying that the uniform is handsome and nice is not a reason to wear it. I have seen plenty of suits out their that are beautiful and not affiliated with a terrorist regime. If you really hated it, despised what it stands for, wouldn't you choose to re-enact a different type of soldier? I may be wrong, and I aplogize in advance if I am but, you seem to have to have some positive feelings for it to be able to wear it, and defend it so passionatly.

Yes, Daisy you are incorrect in your assertions. The pilots that fly CAF aircraft that display the swastika on the tail are not Nazi's nor is the CAF itself. Take a look at the current issue of Flight Journal on the newsstands now; a Bf-109 with swastika on the tail. I assure you that the pilot (in the Luftwaffe helmet http://www.arc-duxford.co.uk/frame.htm) and the publication are not Nazi sympathizers or apologists - anymore than I am. I accept your apology for seeming wrong.

-dixon cannon

 

[MrBern]

Yeah. Lots of them were Jews.

Exactly. I have a friend who's German-Jew grandfather had been an officer in WWI. When the nazis arose he never dreamt they'd send him off to the camps. Had they convinced his german wife to leave him, they wouldve done away with him.
Its just goes to show you, that even amongst the educated, not everyone realized what was going on.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Some interesting history this thread has inspired me to dig up.

It seems there were many plots against Hitler, of which the majority were from army officers and even Albert Speer.
It seems the regular German army, being mostly comprised of ordinary citizens, disliked the evil little creep as much as the rest of the world. But by the time they realized he was insane, it was too late, they were literally fighting for their survival and the survival of their families. The Soviet Union was certainly not going to show any mercy to the German people. There is a good book on the subject written by Heinz Guderian, a member of the German high command, called "Panzer Leader".

There were no fewer than 17 attempts on Hitler's life as shown here,...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/assassination_attempts.html