human swastika

[Hemingway Jones]

Ancient symbol or not, and setting aside how this symbol is viewed in the east separate from its Nazi associations, this symbol is inherently offensive to generations of Jewish people, Gypsies, persecuted Catholic clergy, political dissidents, and our grandfathers who had to go to Europe to defeat this pernicious and apparently insidious ideology.

I am not sure what value posting various pictures of this image brings.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Ancient symbol or not, and setting aside how this symbol is viewed in the east separate from its Nazi associations, this symbol is inherently offensive to generations of Jewish people, Gypsies, persecuted Catholic clergy, political dissidents, and our grandfathers who had to go to Europe to defeat this pernicious and apparently insidious ideology.

I am not sure what value posting various pictures of this image brings.

Very well said, I couldn't agree more.

 

[TwoToneDeuce]

Ancient symbol or not, and setting aside how this symbol is viewed in the east separate from its Nazi associations, this symbol is inherently offensive to generations of Jewish people, Gypsies, persecuted Catholic clergy, political dissidents, and our grandfathers who had to go to Europe to defeat this pernicious and apparently insidious ideology.

I am not sure what value posting various pictures of this image brings.

There are tons of symbols that offend people. That doesn't mean we should outlaw them or not speak of them. One day this symbol will be adopted by another group and turned into something else, hopefully better. The funny thing about many symbols is that to one culture they are offensive to others they are uplifiting or mean unity.

-D

 

[mikepara]

Why mention this?

The anti catholic and anti protestant chanting became such a problem in Scottish football that it's being investigated by UEFA.
bk

Sorry, I can't think why any thread about Nazi's be the old or neo should be posted on this board.

Secondly why has Glasgows Old Firm even been mentioned in the same thread as those right arm waving guys. A few old folk songs are not even in the same league.

 

[herringbonekid]

i think we should know the history of the symbol, and not just suffer from a knee-jerk 'offensive' response whenever we see it. for instance if you were travelling in india and saw a swastika on a hindu temple, there would be no point in thinking "nazis!"...



"The swastika is found all over Hindu temples, signs, altars, pictures and iconography where it is sacred. It is used in all Hindu weddings, festivals, ceremonies, houses and doorways, clothing and jewelry, motor transport and even decorations on food items like cakes and pastries.



It is one of the 108 symbols of Vishnu and represents the sun's rays without which there would be no life.



In Hinduism, the two symbols represent the two forms of the creator god Brahma: facing right it represents the evolution of the universe (Pravritti), facing left it represents the involution of the universe (Nivritti). It is also seen as pointing in all four directions (North, East, South and West) and thus signifies stability and groundedness. Its use as a sun symbol can first be seen in its representation of Surya, the Hindu Sun God. The swastika is considered extremely holy and auspicious by all Hindus, and is regularly used to decorate all sorts of items to do with Hindu culture. It is used in all Hindu yantras and religious designs. Throughout the subcontinent of India it can be seen on the sides of temples, written on religious scriptures, on gift items, and on letterhead. The Hindu God Ganesh is often shown as sitting on a lotus flower on a bed of swastikas.



Amongst the Hindus of Bengal, it is common to see the name "swastika" applied to a slightly different symbol, which has the same significance as the common swastika, and both symbols are used as auspicious signs. This symbol looks something like a stick figure of a human being.[10] "Swastika" is a common given name amongst Bengalis and a prominent literary magazine in Calcutta is called the Swastika. The stick figure, however, is not mainstream usage in India.


The motifs seems to have first been used in Neolithic Eurasia. The swastika is used in religious and civil ceremonies in India. Most Indian temples, entrance of houses, weddings, festivals and celebrations are decorated with swastikas. The symbol was introduced to Southeast Asia by Hindu kings and remains an integral part of Balinese Hinduism to this day, and it is a common sight in Indonesia. The symbol has an ancient history in Europe, appearing on artifacts from pre-Christian European cultures. It was also adopted independently by several Native American cultures.



In the Western world, the symbol experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late nineteenth century of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans ("Aryan" people). He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorised that the swastika was a "significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors," linking ancient German, Greek and Vedic culture.[1] [2] By the early 20th century it was widely used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck and auspiciousness.



The work of Schliemann soon became intertwined with the v??lkisch movements, for which the swastika was a symbol of "Aryan" identity, a concept that came to be equated by theorists like Alfred Rosenberg with a Nordic master race originating in northern Europe. Since its adoption by the Nazi Party of Adolf Hitler, the swastika has been associated with fascism, racism (white supremacy), World War II, and the Holocaust in much of the West. The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi groups, and is also regularly used by activist groups to signify the supposed Nazi-like behaviour of organizations and individuals they oppose."

 

[TwoToneDeuce]

Last year, I tried to post a thread about an asian news website reporting on the trend in some Asian areas to be enthralled by Nazi style & design. it pointed out that some of the people into this didnt really understand the socio-political impact. They jsut thought it was the height of style, from Hugo Boss uniforms to Mercedes tanks.
Unfortunately the thread was edited away , because there is nudity in some of the photos.
But as in this thread, I just wanted to point out that there are idiots who still like Nazi stuff & Nazi ideas.

Careful, before you begin to cast dispersions on another culture and what they do you need to know why they do what they do. In Asia, Japan specifically the German uniforms are seen as very fashionable. They are symbols of anti establishment. In a way those people are using a symbol of conformity to "rage against the machine."

Now on to your statement about "idiots who still like Nazi stuff and Nazi ideas." I don't think everyone who likes the WW2 German uniforms, espouse the beliefs of Nazi Gemany. I do a great deal of historical re-enactment. I own a black German uniform and it is a beautiful uniform. Now I don't have a single SS or swastika symbol on it. And I certainly don't believe in Hitlers ideology. As time passes, people reclaim symbols and re frame what they mean. For example, the Cross was a symbol of fear and death to the Roman world. Christians have taken it and made it mean sacrifice and love. The romans would see it the same as celebrating execution as if we wore an electric chair on a chain or a noose on our necks.

-D

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Sorry, I can't think why any thread about Nazi's be the old or neo should be posted on this board.

Secondly why has Glasgows Old Firm even been mentioned in the same thread as those right arm waving guys. A few old folk songs are not even in the same league.

Just pointing out that those soccer fans shown earlier (one of the pics early in the post) are not confined to eastern europe. Ever been to Ibrox as an away fan? I have. As a fan of a (historically) catholic team? I have. Bigotry and racism is not confined to neo nazis. And yes, there are quite a number of right arm waving guys in the ranks of the old firm football fans - comically in the case of rangers, singing land of hope and glory while giving the nazi salute. They see no contradiction.

Old folk songs, eh?

They are in exactly the same league as misguided morons.

bk

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I disagree!

Ancient symbol or not, and setting aside how this symbol is viewed in the east separate from its Nazi associations, this symbol is inherently offensive to generations of Jewish people, Gypsies, persecuted Catholic clergy, political dissidents, and our grandfathers who had to go to Europe to defeat this pernicious and apparently insidious ideology.

I am not sure what value posting various pictures of this image brings.

We have fifty stars on our nations flag. The biggest communist regime and, by far the largest persecutor and murdering machine in the twentieth-century, Mao's Chinese Communists also use the star as their symbol. That doesn't desecrate the 'star' symbol for us or for any other culture.

Again, it's a case of symbols over substance: it's the underlying philosophy the should be judged - not the symbols that were chosen the represent it.
Case in point - is a Brigadier General in the U.S. Army a Maoist Communist murdering brute? Is a child with a crusifix necklace a brutal crusifying Roman legionaire? Is the 'artist formerly know as Prince' a spoiled eccentric, pompous prima-donna? (Well, two out of three ain't bad!!!) [huh]

-dixon cannon

 

[mikepara]

Just pointing out that those soccer fans shown earlier (one of the pics early in the post) are not confined to eastern europe. Ever been to Ibrox as an away fan? I have. As a fan of a (historically) catholic team? I have. Bigotry and racism is not confined to neo nazis. And yes, there are quite a number of right arm waving guys in the ranks of the old firm football fans - comically in the case of rangers, singing land of hope and glory while giving the nazi salute. They see no contradiction.

Old folk songs, eh?

They are in exactly the same league as misguided morons.

bk

Yeah, Point taken. I've been on the receiving end from both sides. The Songs are offensive to the opposing 'side' but both the so called 'Rebel' Songs and the 'Loyalist' ones are available in most record shops and just about every Market..filed under Folk music. Its hard to get hot and bothered over someone singing about Sean South dying or attacking Derry or the Boyne in 1689/90.
There are always the odd nutter taking a game of football far too seriously but theres no excuse in the modern age to give a Nazi salute.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I disagree with these comparisons. No other symbol rises to the level of infamy as the swastika.

Once again, I do not see the value for this community of posting it. I say this as a statement of my opinion only. I am sure we are all well-versed in its history and usage.

I will simply choose to not look upon this thread again and allow the apologists to continue.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'd say it's wrong to label people calmly discussing the current use of a symbol as "apologists".

so it's somehow wrong for a buddhist (or hindu? or native american) to use the swastika? There are an awful lot of people who find the crucifix abhorrent; symbolic of the systematic destruction of the european jews. Does this mean we should stop using it?

bk

 

[herringbonekid]

Hem, i'm not an apologist, and i'm not naive enough to suggest that those idiots on the football terrace might be peace-loving hindus. i understand that it will cause, and is used to cause, offence in certain contexts. but it is only a symbol and has a much longer history than before it was tarnished by the nazis. and i think to understand that is important.

 

[DronesDodz]

I hope they used them for beams in a synagogue.

That would have been very cool!

 

[TwoToneDeuce]

I disagree with these comparisons. No other symbol rises to the level of infamy as the swastika.

Once again, I do not see the value for this community of posting it. I say this as a statement of my opinion only. I am sure we are all well-versed in its history and usage.

I will simply choose to not look upon this thread again and allow the apologists to continue.

I doubt the first century Christians would agree that no other symbol rises to that level of infamy. The difference is the collective memory of that time has faded to ancient history and WW2 is still modern history. The cross of the Templar knights even seems a benign symbol of history to us, though the Muslim world sees it as a symbol of murder and conquest.

It is funny that you call anyone with has an opinion on this topic different than yours an apologist. I doubt you would be correct in your assumption that anyone here is trying to refute that the swastika was used as a symbol of hate, nor do I think anyone here is trying to defend what the Nazi's did. Most are simply saying that the symbol can mean different things to different cultures and that it has a history that predates Germany's use of it.

-D

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Hem, i'm not an apologist, and i'm not naive enough to suggest that those idiots on the football terrace might be peace-loving hindus. i understand that it will cause, and is used to cause, offence in certain contexts. but it is only a symbol and has a much longer history than before it was tarnished by the nazis. and i think to understand that is important.

To me, it is much more than a symbol. Although it means other things in other cultures, to me it is a sign of hatred and murder. I understand that other people see it as something else, but it is still something that chills me to the bone, and like Hem I wonder why it is even a topic here.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I'd say it's wrong to label people calmly discussing the current use of a symbol as "apologists".

so it's somehow wrong for a buddhist (or hindu? or native american) to use the swastika? There are an awful lot of people who find the crucifix abhorrent; symbolic of the systematic destruction of the european jews. Does this mean we should stop using it?

bk

Baron, with all due respect, -and you know I mean that because I consider us pals- I wish you would read what I wrote. I would say that it is precisely correct to label people defending the use of this symbol as "apologists." And I wasn't being perjorative.

And I am not talking about Buddhists, or Hidus or any other community, than THIS one.

I am not raising my voice on this or casting dispersions, but what I am saying is by the display and defense of this symbol, we as a community may be flashing a signal to some that they are not welcome here.

I doubt the first century Christians would agree that no other symbol rises to that level of infamy...

We are not the first century Christians, nor anyone else. We are The Fedora Lounge.

It is funny that you call anyone with has an opinion on this topic different than yours an apologist.

Let me help out here by printing a definition:

Main Entry: apol¬?o¬?gist
Pronunciation: &-'pä-l&-jist
Function: noun
: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something.

I doubt you would be correct in your assumption that anyone here is trying to refute that the swastika was used as a symbol of hate, nor do I think anyone here is trying to defend what the Nazi's did. Most are simply saying that the symbol can mean different things to different cultures and that it has a history that predates Germany's use of it.

I never said, or assumed any of the above. What I am saying is that multiple postings of different swastikas along with discussions on how the symbols isn't that bad since there is a long history that goes with it, does nothing to assuage the anguish of a Jewish family who lost three generations to a regime who adopted it as their dominant symbol. Nor would it sooth my grandfather who spent years of his life being shot at and shooting people who wore these symbols on their uniforms.

I am not Hopi, or Buddhists, or anything else, I am one of your colleagues, and I hope, friends who finds it disturbing to see hate symbols all over one of our posts. Any other symbol used in a similar context would meet my same criticism.

All my opinion.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

BTW, in Philadelphia, my hometown, on Cherry Street just on the edge of Chinatown, but I am not sure if there is a connection there, in the masonry work of a building, clearing visible when you are in traffic, is a good sized swastika. I am sure it predates WWII. I am surprised that it is still there.

I am sure if more people noticed it, it would be gone.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

point (re: apologist) taken.

I reckon what we're debating is the ability of a thing (symbol, word, etc.) to be inherently offensive. I'd be on the side saying that things are not inherently offensive: for the very reason of the multiple meanings/uses of a word or symbol.

Now, having said that: What the football fans were doing is offensive because they could not reasonably say that it was anything other than a neo-nazi (and probably ultra-nationalist - these things tend to be so) display. I suspect noone in this thread has acted as an aplogist towards the original issue (though it would be valid had someone suggested they sould have the free speech/political freedom to do such things. Double edged sword and all that).

bk

 

[Quigley Brown]

Maybe some creative forestry could be done...

 

[herringbonekid]

...and like Hem I wonder why it is even a topic here.

considering that many here are world war 2 re-enactors i'm surprised it doesn't come up as a topic more often.