human swastika

[Hemingway Jones]

point (re: apologist) taken.

I reckon what we're debating is the ability of a thing (symbol, word, etc.) to be inherently offensive. I'd be on the side saying that things are not inherently offensive: for the very reason of the multiple meanings/uses of a word or symbol.

Now, having said that: What the football fans were doing is offensive because they could not reasonably say that it was anything other than a neo-nazi (and probably ultra-nationalist - these things tend to be so) display. I suspect noone in this thread has acted as an aplogist towards the original issue (though it would be valid had someone suggested they sould have the free speech/political freedom to do such things. Double edged sword and all that).

bk

Yes! Baron, well said! I agree with you completely. Neither do I think that anyone here was defending the football fans or Nazis. -Not for a moment.

I was concerned of the effect of posting photo representations of what is to us a hate symbol.

The only difference I have with you is that I do find that symbol inherently offensive in full knowledge of its history and multiple meanings. But on this point we will have to agreeably disagree. Which is also the point where, were we in person, I would buy you a drink and change the subject.

 

[Viola]

BTW, in Philadelphia, my hometown, on Cherry Street just on the edge of Chinatown, but I am not sure if there is a connection there, in the masonry work of a building, clearing visible when you are in traffic, is a good sized swastika. I am sure it predates WWII. I am surprised that it is still there.

I am sure if more people noticed it, it would be gone.

I've seen it. I don't know if there's an accurate timeline involved, but I assumed it had something to do with the Buddhist subset of the Asian population in the vicinity. Even if it didn't originally, it probably does now, and that's probably how its lasted as long as it has.

That and I have the impression that "Street don't care about Chinatown."

 

[TwoToneDeuce]

Baron, with all due respect, -and you know I mean that because I consider us pals- I wish you would read what I wrote. I would say that it is precisely correct to label people defending the use of this symbol as "apologists." And I wasn't being perjorative.

And I am not talking about Buddhists, or Hidus or any other community, than THIS one.

I am not raising my voice on this or casting dispersions, but what I am saying is by the display and defense of this symbol, we as a community may be flashing a signal to some that they are not welcome here.


We are not the first century Christians, nor anyone else. We are The Fedora Lounge.

Let me help out here by printing a definition:

Main Entry: apol¬?o¬?gist
Pronunciation: &-'p?§-l&-jist
Function: noun
: one who speaks or writes in defense of someone or something.


I never said, or assumed any of the above. What I am saying is that multiple postings of different swastikas along with discussions on how the symbols isn't that bad since there is a long history that goes with it, does nothing to assuage the anguish of a Jewish family who lost three generations to a regime who adopted it as their dominant symbol. Nor would it sooth my grandfather who spent years of his life being shot at and shooting people who wore these symbols on their uniforms.

I am not Hopi, or Buddhists, or anything else, I am one of your colleagues, and I hope, friends who finds it disturbing to see hate symbols all over one of our posts. Any other symbol used in a similar context would meet my same criticism.

All my opinion.

Mr. Jones,

I think most of us here know the meaning of the word apologist. And the dictionary definition is all well and good but the common meaning is what, I, and most people "heard" in your post.

Colloquial usage
Today the term "apologist" is colloquially applied in a general manner to include groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies, or denying certain events, even of crimes. Apologists have been characterized as being deceptive, or "whitewashing" their cause, primarily through omission of negative facts (selective perception) and exaggeration of positive ones, techniques of classical rhetoric. When used in this context, the term often has a pejorative meaning. The neutralized substitution of "spokesperson" for "apologist" in conversation conveys much the same sense of "partisan presenter with a weighted agenda," with less rhetorical freight.

We are in fact, the Fedora Lounge and we all enjoy vintage things from the time period of ww2. The War and Germany would come up on any board that entertains people that fancy that time period. That is why this discussion is and should be welcomed on our board. Nothing soothes people that loose generations to war whatever the reason behind the war. And just as your grandfather wouldnt approve of the symbol, My Dad will always see a Vietnameese person a certain way and my brother will always see arabs in a certain light. Those are part of the unseen ravages of war.

I also doubt that we would attract the people you speak of with a few pics and a discussion that surrounds them.

-D

 

[TwoToneDeuce]

considering that many here are world war 2 re-enactors i'm surprised it doesn't come up as a topic more often.

Agreed.

-D

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

I think Quigley has the right idea.

Regarding that stand of trees, they've tried cutting them down, but new saplings keep coming up from the roots. You only saw the Hakenkreutz in the fall, when the larches turned colors and the surrounding evergreens didn't.

 

[Story]

I also doubt that we would attract the people you speak of with a few pics and a discussion that surrounds them.
-D

And if it did, they'd be easily recognizable - such as using their knuckles for plucking out words on a keyboard, that's one dead giveaway.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Well TwoTone, I speak English and I am the foremost authority of my own mind and opinion.

Once again, there is no harm in discussion, even challenging discussions, but I see no value in posting various photo images of swastikas in all of their incarnations.

I find the image inherently offensive as I have expressed above.

I also enjoy all things vintage and I share that "vintage" belief of our American grandfathers that the swastika is a hateful symbol and should neither be propogated nor watered down, but recognzied for what it is in the context of our culture.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Agreed, agreed!

Agreed.

-D

Agreed!

-dixon cannon

P.S. I had a lot more to say but my computer hiccuped and I lost it all. Suffice it to say, if the CAF (formerly the 'Confederate' Air Force) and Confederate (CSA) reenactors don't worry about offending, I don't think we should be overly concerned with that here. No one is advocating National Socialism (especially this Libertarian! - who reenacts Luftwaffe!!), so our discussion is about this symbol not ideology.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

considering that many here are world war 2 re-enactors i'm surprised it doesn't come up as a topic more often.

That's fine, talk about history all you want. That symbol, for me, means one thing, just as it means something totally different for someone else. But, in this thread, we weren't talking about someone else or another meaning. It was brought to our attention on this thread as a symbol of hate. That so many people keep bringing visions of this symbol up, in my own opinion is disturbing.
As for re-enactors. I can think of a lot of other discussions about WWII that can be had, such as the defeat of the Nazi party, or what our troops went through to get there. There are posts in this thread that make me think that people are putting that symbol in a positive light. To me, as an American who was brought up and learned that the swastika is a symbol of the Nazi party, the constant discussion and pictures of it are disturbing. Fine, if you are all for the symbol because of what it stands for in another culture, than good for you. But, this thread was not started, nor was it replied to by some, because of that belief. I like the people here on the lounge, it is a place for me to meet great people that share the same love of an era that I do. I think the discussion of a Nazi symbol will put a negative tone on the Lounge, and is bad for those people who are thinking about joining our group. I am sad to say that I am starting to see some of you in a new light. I agree with the freedom of speech argument, you should be able to say anything you like. But, when it comes to offending those in a community that you are deeply involved in, some things are better left unsaid.
There are so many wonderful things we can talk about in regards to the era that we are all so interested in. Why such an interest in a sign of complete terror. And don't give me that you are interested in what it used to mean, because that's not what this thread was started on. I mean no harm in my words, I'm just letting you know I find some of the deep interest in such a thing disturbing. That symbol and what it stands for killed off a lot of people in my family. Those who survived lost their livliehoods and had to flee their own homes. So yes, I am bothered by the constant mention of it. No it doesn't mean anything else to me than that, and I'm sure that the symbol means the same to a lot of people here.

 

[Matthew Dalton]

Well personally, I just want to educate people who don't know its origins on the original meaning. I think people should look at context before making judgement, not everyone is educated enough to do so, OBVIOUSLY these people in the stand aren't using it in say... The Buddhist sense. But I'd hate to think some Jainist is going to get beaten up in a bar because someone sees his swastika tattoo and thinks he's a Nazi.

 

[Barry]

Careful, before you begin to cast dispersions on another culture and what they do you need to know why they do what they do. In Asia, Japan specifically the German uniforms are seen as very fashionable. They are symbols of anti establishment. In a way those people are using a symbol of conformity to "rage against the machine."

I think some people "do what they do" because they simply don't "get it." Case in point: Izzue's use of these symbols in a marketing campaign and in their stores several years back. They even had green drums painted with swastikas in the retail shops. This was a chain store not some little independent shop selling gear to punks who want to fight back against the system. Whoever was speaking to the press for Izzue at the time said they were considering taking the "decorations" (check google images, if you want to see) down but needed to wait until they found a replacement.

Barry

 

[MrBern]

the nazi symbol

I'd like to point out the nazi swastika depicted by the soccer fans or that stand of trees is not identical to the symbol on that buddhist statue.
If you look carefully, the statue's symbol runs the opposite direction. I'd wager that the young man described who bears the tattooed religious symbol is also reversed.
So there is a graphic difference.

We might be reminded that in some european countries it is illegal to have or sell nazi symbols like the swastika flag.

Yes, some american reenactors& collectors have scads of nazi stuff in there homes. I know some. They might have it as a wartrophy to remind us that we beat the Nazis.

But the scarey part is...what about the people who think Nazism is cool. Who dwell on how close the Aryans came to conquering the world. Who wish that the fascists were still in charge to straighten us all out. Who have no real tolerance for other religions & races. Who cheer for censorship & bookburnings.
Dont dismiss them as dumb soccer fans. Some might be dumb, some might be smarter than you & me.

Never forget.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

I'd like to point out the nazi swastika depicted by the soccer fans or that stand of trees is not identical to the symbol on that buddhist statue.
If you look carefully, the statue's symbol runs the opposite direction. I'd wager that the young man described who bears the tattooed religious symbol is also reversed.
So there is a graphic difference.

We might be reminded that in some european countries it is illegal to have or sell nazi symbols like the swastika flag.

Yes, some american reenactors& collectors have scads of nazi stuff in there homes. I know some. They might have it as a wartrophy to remind s that we beat the Nazis.

But the scarey part is...what about the people who think Nazism is cool. Who dwell on how close the Aryans came to conquering the world. Who wish that the fascists were still in charge to straighten us all out. Who have no real tolerance for other religions & racists. Who cheer for censorship & bookburnings.
Dont dismiss them as dumb soccer fans. Some might be dumb, some might be smarter than you & me.

Never forget.

Thanks for pointing out that big difference between the swastica and the buddhist symbol. That is very good, important information to know.
Very well said Bern, very well said.....

 

[Story]

And like a bad STD, the Nazis don't go away...

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060820/211/66t14.html

Stomach this! Hitler in Mumbai
By IBNlive.com
Sunday August 20, 11:09 AM

Mumbai: Hitler is back. This time in Navi Mumbai. However, he's not building gas chambers but dishing out gastronomical delights. And of course, it's controversial.

Stomach this! Hitler is "apparently" cool these days. Well, that's at least what the owner of a restaurant thought when he named his new eatery Hitlers' Cross.

"It's just that we wanted to give a different name. We wanted a good campaign. That's the main reason. Nothing else," Managing Director, Hitlers' Cross, Puneet Sabhlok said.

Billboards, balloons, lamppost kiosks, there's a mark of Hitler everywhere around Khargarh in Navi Mumbai, where the restaurant is situated.

Hitler may have ordered thousands to death but that isn't stopping people from visiting the restaurant.

"The name has a very negative impact because Hitler reminds you of a gas chamber. But, then, I thought, let me try what's this all about," a patron, Vaishali Shreedhar said.

However, Khargarh's Jewish community is appalled.

"I don't think anybody will eat at that restaurant. Because the word Hitler disturbs us," Sect. of the Bethel Synagogue, Joseph Massin said.

Feathers have been ruffled but regarding people’s emotions being hurt, the proprietor of the restaurant said, "I haven't thought about that."

 

[Feraud]

We wanted a good campaign. That's the main reason. Nothing else," Managing Director, Hitlers' Cross, Puneet Sabhlok said.

Now that was well thought out! :eusa_doh:

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I think the discussion of a Nazi symbol will put a negative tone on the Lounge, and is bad for those people who are thinking about joining our group. I am sad to say that I am starting to see some of you in a new light. I agree with the freedom of speech argument, you should be able to say anything you like. But, when it comes to offending those in a community that you are deeply involved in, some things are better left unsaid.

This is kind of off-topic but relvant. I recommend watching the classic film "Gentleman's Agreement" that brings up a lot of these issues.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I do a great deal of historical re-enactment. I own a black German uniform and it is a beautiful uniform. Now I don't have a single SS or swastika symbol on it. And I certainly don't believe in Hitlers ideology.

This bothers me more than the swastika. After all, the type of "black German uniform" you speak of was designed for one purpose only: to clothe men whose job was to liquidate entire peoples. That particular "black German uniform" was not "borrowed" more or less intact from the Buddhists, Jains, Native Americans, or any other group. It was created in 1930s Germany to strike terror, and to empower the terrorizers.

If I were an actor in Schindler's List, I'd wear the uniform, because that film specifically shows the evil behind it. If I were a re-enactor, getting a kick out of playacting war, then I wouldn't let this uniform get near my skin or even my closet. I'd donate it to a Holocaust remembrance museum.

.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Marc, I must beg to differ...

This bothers me more than the swastika. After all, the type of "black German uniform" you speak of was designed for one purpose only: to clothe men whose job was to liquidate entire peoples. That particular "black German uniform" was not "borrowed" more or less intact from the Buddhists, Jains, Native Americans, or any other group. It was created in 1930s Germany to strike terror, and to empower the terrorizers.

If I were an actor in Schindler's List, I'd wear the uniform, because that film specifically shows the evil behind it. If I were a re-enactor, getting a kick out of playacting war, then I wouldn't let this uniform get near my skin or even my closet. I'd donate it to a Holocaust remembrance museum.

.

As I mentioned previously, why is this any different than those re-enactors who represent American Civil War soldiers? There might be a whole group of individuals who would say any representation of a Confederate soldier is an affront to a segment of the population who's ancestors were enslaved. But, we find at these gathering, people from a number of races who not only enjoy the re-enactments, but participate willingly. They know that it is a representation of historical events; it's not refighting the Civil War in the hopes of returning to slavery. The Stars and Bars existed as did the Conferderate States of America - we don't pretend that it didn't in the hopes that we aren't hurting someone's feelings.

I actually know people who regard the American Civil War as the 'War of Northern Aggression' and who regard Union soldiers as "stik(ing) terror and empowering terrorizers", as odd as that sounds! The don't advocate slavery though!

You can't please everybody - you can't not offend someone, somewhere. Most re-enactors who represent the soldiers of that National Socialist regime (myself, a Luftwaffe re-enactor and an ardent Libertarian politically!) have absolutely no desire to see the tenets of Nazism return. But, on the same token, they don't deny that there were soldiers in that terrible conflict and their uniforms and their presentations portray that historical fact.

All of this discussion is very healthy and very enlightening. But the swastika symbol is not going to go away. People are going to display it in any manner they choose, rightly or wrongly, and we're all better off educating ourselves about the historical facts of government gone awry rather than censoring symbols.

-dixon cannon

 

[Marc Chevalier]

As I mentioned previously, why is this any different than those re-enactors who represent American Civil War soldiers? There might be a whole group of individuals who would say any representation of a Confederate soldier is an affront to a segment of the population who's ancestors were enslaved.

I'd call this a false comparison. If the Civil War had produced its own version of the SS, then I'd agree with you. If re-enactors dressed up as early Klansmen, then I'd agree with you again. Thankfully, they don't (or do they?)

Most re-enactors who represent the soldiers of that National Socialist regime (myself, a Luftwaffe re-enactor and an ardent Libertarian politically!) ....

I have no problem with those who re-enact the roles of servicemen in Nazi Germany's regular army, navy, or air force. That said, the SS was quite another creature, was it not?



.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

All of this discussion is very healthy and very enlightening. But the swastika symbol is not going to go away. People are going to display it in any manner they choose, rightly or wrongly, and we're all better off educating ourselves about the historical facts of government gone awry rather than censoring symbols.

-dixon cannon

Yes, but this discussion was started based on the fact that the swastika was being used as a symbol of deep hatred and terrorism, nothing else. I don't think that this symbol is ever going away but, I don't see a need to sing it's praises in this regard. Some people are all too happy to discuss this symbol with praise, and then try to back it up by saying that it is a symbol of beauty and enlightenment in other cultures. The bringing up of this symbol was not from this context. In this context it is not enlightening, it is horrifying. Marc is absolutely correct, your comparisons are off. Re-enactors who choose to wear these uniforms scare me. It is one thing to be a German soldier who is not involved in Nazi-ism. It is a totally other thing to put on an SS uniform but not embellish it and say you are just playing. Would you put on a Klan uniform for the sake of re-enacting, but only wear the robe and not the hood to make it less offensive? I see someone in an SS Uniform, whether embellished with a swastika or not, it's still an SS uniform to me. I don't think to myself that the person wearing such a uniform is just doing it for the sake of play. I see that person as someone who sides with the terror that the SS caused. I am not saying that you are such a person, I'm just letting you know that seeing that would make me believe that you might be such a person. I have been debating wheter or not I should say that I am Jewish. My debate came from the fact that I was actually concerned about letting some of you know that I am. I never wanted it to come to me saying this, because I'm hoping that I'm wrong, and I was, for the first time a little bit in fear of letting some of you know that I am. Their is more than an air of anti-Jewish sentiment in this thread. This is just my opinion, and I don't want any one person to think that I am singling anyone out, because I'm not. Maybe I'm reading too much in between the lines. I adore this community. I have met and spoken to a lot of great people here. Why is it that I think some of your opinions might change of me? I shouldn't be thinking that way, like I said there is more than a scent here, maybe I'm just reading between the lines too much. Way too much admiration for a symbol of extreme terror, and remember this thread started on the subject of this symbol as a nazi symbol and nothing more. If the thread was called "Swastika as a budhist sign of enlightenment" and people talked about how it once was a good symbol and people liked it because of that, then I would be thinking differently. If someone started a thread on how great the KKK uniform was, it would be shut down immediately. Too much praise for the symbol and it's Nazi affiliation.