human swastika

[Terry Lennox]

Should be ban Mercedes and BMW because of where and when they were made?

I'm just curious. I don't drive either.

 

[Viola]

So, I'm just making sure I've got this right. You do re-enact as a Luftwaffe, and although you don't wear the "decoration" of the swastika, you do wear the uniform? So in fact, you do dress as part of the Nazi regime. I sense pride coming from your writings. I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can wear the uniform and still not be on the side of the regime? You are deeply defending it. Something that is well tolerated and widely accepted does not need such a passionate defense. Did you choose to re-enact this particular party? Or were you assigned the uniform? You couldn't pay me enough to dress like that. And no, saying that the uniform is handsome and nice is not a reason to wear it. I have seen plenty of suits out their that are beautiful and not affiliated with a terrorist regime. If you really hated it, despised what it stands for, wouldn't you choose to re-enact a different type of soldier? I may be wrong, and I aplogize in advance if I am but, you seem to have to have some positive feelings for it to be able to wear it, and defend it so passionatly.

Daisy, I'm not the person you were addressing, but I have a slightly different take on it then you. I'm also very interested in all things WWII. And if someone said they were into the educational reenactment, well that's cool by me though not my thing.

And if you're into renactment...someone's got to be the Kraut, you know? Its not inherently evil to examine that side, their history, and what they believed. Its only evil if you come to see them as some sort of tragic Wagnerian heroes or something.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Should be ban Mercedes and BMW because of where and when they were made?

I'm just curious. I don't drive either.

Not really relevant. Big difference between wearing an SS uniform and driving a Mercedes. Mercedes don't have swastika's on them. I understand that they made cars for the SS, but it is much different than dressing up like a soldier. I use a lot of German made products. Not all German's are Nazi's, remember. There is a big difference. I still think Hugo Boss makes a beautiful suit, and they made the uniforms for the SS. Also we are not talking about banning the swastika, it's part of freedom of speech. We are just wondering why certain people choose to believe in it or feel a need to defend it. That is a huge difference. Would I like to see the symbol banned, of course. But I believe in the constitutional rights of every individual. I just didn't expect to see such a high level of anti semetism here on the Fedora Lounge.
To answer your question, no. But, I think that these are two totally different entities. Big difference between driving a BMW or Mercedes and seig heiling in an SS uniform, very big difference.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Daisy, I'm not the person you were addressing, but I have a slightly different take on it then you. I'm also very interested in all things WWII. And if someone said they were into the educational reenactment, well that's cool by me though not my thing.

And if you're into renactment...someone's got to be the Kraut, you know? Its not inherently evil to examine that side, their history, and what they believed. Its only evil if you come to see them as some sort of tragic Wagnerian heroes or something.

I agree with you on all accounts. However if that was the sentiments of certain members, then that's all they should of said. Instead they emmited great pride in what they did with no explanation for it,, so what are we supposed to assume? There's a difference between wanting to learn about history and displaying great pride in emulating a nazi officer.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Yes, Daisy you are incorrect in your assertions. The pilots that fly CAF aircraft that display the swastika on the tail are not Nazi's nor is the CAF itself. Take a look at the current issue of Flight Journal on the newsstands now; a Bf-109 with swastika on the tail. I assure you that the pilot (in the Luftwaffe helmet) and the publication are not Nazi sympathizers or apologists - anymore than I am. I accept your apology for seeming wrong.

-dixon cannon

Thanks for explaining that. I certainly did misunderstand your previous post. Glad to hear it I do apologize again for misunderstanding.

 

[Viola]

Should be ban Mercedes and BMW because of where and when they were made?

I'm just curious. I don't drive either.

Heh, personal take of mine (no one else should be blamed!) is that Mecedes and BMWs are a-okay as the funds no longer go to any war criminals or their heirs. Its all just nameplates.

But don't buy Fords, Henry was a rat and his kids get the money.

Signed,
Buy Chevrolet

 

[Lincsong]

Hogan's Heroes

Werner Klemperor, who played Colonel Klink, said that if there ever was an episode in which the Nazi's were portrayed as anything resembling intelligence or having the upper hand he would leave the show.

 

[geo]

First, I don't think that those Croatian fans intended to show respect to Budha, I think it is very clear that they meant a Nazi symbol. After WW2, at least in Europe and North America, the swastika means Nazism.

Second, on renactors and SS uniforms. The SS had fighting units that were pretty much the same as the regular army. The black uniform was worn mainly before the war, and it became a parade uniform later, worn mainly by ceremonial guards. The camp staff wore Feldgrau uniforms. Also, Adolf himself designed many of the SS and SA uniforms, among which the black uniform. It was made in the Boss factories, but it was Adolf's design.

 

[Baggers]

...I just didn't expect to see such a high level of anti semetism here on the Fedora Lounge.
...

(TWEEEEET!) TIME OUT!

Let's tap the brakes. I've read this whole thread and I can find no instances of anti-semitism being expressed by anyone here. Nor can I find any admiration for the ideals of National Socialism. Before you start slinging such potentially incendiary terms about, step back...take a deep breath...and think.

Daisy, I can understand your deep feelings on this subject, but I think you may be allowing your emotions to get the best of you.

Regards,
Mark

 

[Matthew Dalton]

Would there perhaps be a danger in considering the acts of the Nazis and Hitler as unspeakable evil and a taboo subject?

The thought occurred to me that this makes their actions comparable to those of legendary figures.

That believing what they did was so great (in scale) and terrible that we shouldn't even talk about it could turn them into Super Villains. More than just the scum of humanity and powerful role-models for those who think similarly to look up to.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I join Baggers in the call for restraint.

bk

 

[geo]

Would there perhaps be a danger in considering the acts of the Nazis and Hitler as unspeakable evil and a taboo subject?

They certainly are unspeakable evil, but should not become a taboo subject. These acts should not be forgotten.

Also, in classifying mass murderers by the numbers of their victims, Mao is #1, Stalin #2, and Hitler #3. The people wearing those Guevara T-shirts should know this.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

They certainly are unspeakable evil, but should not become a taboo subject. These acts should not be forgotten.

I'm amazed at how patronizing some of these comments are. Do you REALLY believe that Daisy or anyone else is suggesting that the Holocaust be kept hush hush and forgotten?

This thread is about a bunch of dorks making a human swastika in a stadium, and how, in that specific context, it is a symbol of hate.

The real issue is that anti-semitism still exists today. Daisy was (sorry for speaking for you) addressing how it manifests today. One doesn't need to be in a Nazi uniform to be an anti-semite, and there are varying degrees of anti-semitism.

And please, please refrain from posting links to wikipedia definitions of something some of us have experienced first hand as an attempt to educate us. Perhaps you can reach out and try to learn about more subtle and insidious forms of prejudice?

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

(TWEEEEET!) TIME OUT!

Let's tap the brakes. I've read this whole thread and I can find no instances of anti-semitism being expressed by anyone here. Nor can I find any admiration for the ideals of National Socialism. Before you start slinging such potentially incendiary terms about, step back...take a deep breath...and think.

Daisy, I can understand your deep feelings on this subject, but I think you may be allowing your emotions to get the best of you.

Regards,
Mark

First of all, obviously you don't understand how I, and quite a few others on this board are feeling. Don't tell me that I am letting my emotions get the better of me, for my posts on this site are based purely on thoughts. Nobody get's anywhere basing argument on emotion.
Maybe you didn't get my point, so I'll say it again. This thread was started based on the belief that the swastika is a symbol of Nazism. It was not started to discuss the use of the swastika as a Buddhist symbol. That point did come up and was made very well. Then the thread turned to peoples defense of talking about the swastika because they were re-enactors and it had historical value. I understand this, but quite a few of us expressed our dis-like of the defense of such a symbol, and the confusion of why certain re-enactors choose to wear an SS uniform. Let me say again, I did admit to mis-understanding the historical meanings of some of these uniforms. I just found some of the passionate defenses mounted a little more than disturbing. We expressed our disturbance with this, and instead of anyone saying that they understand our frustration, a more passionate defense was given. I did not direct this to anyone in particular, as I said "maybe I'm reading too much in between the lines". I was sensing that this deep defense as well as a general mis-understanding of what some of us were trying to get across in regards to why we didn't like the posts of the swastika, as well as a defense for those re-enactors who choose to wear the SS uniform (I know now not all uniforms were SS) did have an aire of anti-Semitism. This was directed to no-one in particular. It was my thoughts on the subject at hand, which I have every right to express. Just as everyone else has a right to express their thoughts. I see the swastika a symbol of terror. I see it as nothing else. That is what it means to me. I see it's use as in-defensible as do I feel great disdain for people who wear it or an ss uniform.
So, you basically are telling me that I'm being emotional. I have every right to express my thoughts. Just as you do yours. Just don't tell me how I am feeling, you do not have the right to cast disparaging remarks upon me. I was not adressing my comments to anyone in particular, I was just letting people in general know (and I'm not the only one who has done so, so you really haven't any place to single my argument out) that I find a strong defense of this symbol disturbing. Yes it does make me wonder about the people who defend it. Many of whom later stated their mutual disdain for what it stands for, but in the begining of the argument that is not how it came across.
You are now saying you think that it is time for this thread to end. Many of us wanted this thread to end a long time ago. I would really like to stop this back and forth banter. I really love this place and truly do not want to turn it into a place that I don't want to visit anymore.

 

[geo]

I'm amazed at how patronizing some of these comments are. Do you REALLY believe that Daisy or anyone else is suggesting that the Holocaust be kept hush hush and forgotten?

I'm sorry if my comments seemed patronizing, but I was responding to someone who was asking the question whether the subject would be better kept taboo. See here:

Would there perhaps be a danger in considering the acts of the Nazis and Hitler as unspeakable evil and a taboo subject?

As taboo=hush hush, I wrote that it shouldn't be kept taboo, because if nobody talks about it, it will be forgotten.

 

[Quigley Brown]

Geesh...what's next? I can't wear my black fedora because that's what the Gestapo wore?

This is certainly the most emotional thread...in my opinion...ever on the Lounge, but 'anti-semitism' here? No.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I'm sorry if my comments seemed patronizing, but I was responding to someone who was asking the question whether the subject would be better kept taboo. See here:

As taboo=hush hush, I wrote that it shouldn't be kept taboo, because if nobody talks about it, it will be forgotten.

Oh, I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Geesh...what's next? I can't wear my black fedora because that's what the Gestapo wore?

This is an example of what I mean by patronizing. I wouldn't say, in a discussion about the offensiveness and symbolism of the KKK white sheet to a black person, "Geesh...what's next? Kids shouldn't wear a sheet to dress as a ghost on Halloween because that's what the KKK wore?"

Think about it.

Some people here get more emotional about someone not wearing a suit than a swastika intended in the WWII version. [huh] We each have our things, I guess. I'm (really) done this time trying to have a dialogue about this.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

The Nazi swastika is inherently anti-Semitic. If you choose to display it on your person in any context, you have to expect a reaction. If you choose to dress as a Nazi, you shouldn't be surprised if people challenge you on it. Perhpas, to people whose families were lost in the pogroms of the Nazis, historical context is not enough of a defense. -My opinion.

I would like to see everyone step back and try to imagine what the other people are feeling.