Formal Wear Primer

[Annixter]

I certainly had no intention of putting this young man into a 10" hat. I firmly believe in the power of proportion. I believe finding a reasonable crown height on a top hat would not look out of place both in scale and propriety.

I think the shorter the top hat the better for him, and a top hat would look dapper with a tailored vintage-looking dinner jacket. As others have pointed out, plenty of different hat styles were worn. The side effect of trying to make your friend look taller with a taller hat is that you could make his smaller body look like it has a huge head, so that's something to consider.

To give you and your friend an idea of what he would look like in a top hat, you might take advantage of the Halloween season. It might be worth stopping by a costume store and seeing if they have different height top hats. Sure, they will look ridiculous in style, but it beats buying a $150 vintage top hat just to find out it doesn't look good on him.

 

[DocMustang]

After much discussion after lodge with the "Pastmaster's guild" he has elected the top hat. But given our rather close proximity to Chicago. We determined that a train trip to Optimo was in order! More to come later.

 

[Tomasso]

We determined that a train trip to Optimo was in order.

They make a beautiful beaver topper for around 1k.

 

[Egerland]

I have a white tie outfit I've worn once. The large butterfly tie that I ordered from the UK was annoying to tie, and looked way to big. Also, the metal adjuster seemed VERY visible on the side of my collar. Recalling the slim batwing white ties on TV shows like "Downton Abbey", I decided to make a non-adjustable one myself in a similar pattern. I ordered a yard of pique/marcella on the 'Bay for $15 plus shipping.

Step 1: Traced my the pattern (using another batwing tie that was adjusted to fit me) onto the pique with a pencil.
Step 2: Stapled this to another piece of pique (an inch or more away from my seam line, with a one inch gather or fold on one side.
Step 3: Using a backstich, I hand-sewed the two pieces together along the line of the pencil. I did not stitch for about an inch around the fold in the middle.
Step 4: I cut the middle of the fold on what will be the inside of the tie (the opening is the width of the tie, and about 1/4 inch wide).
Step 5: Using the tip of a fishing rod, I reversed the tie, pushing it through the hole I cut. A chopstick would probably work better.
Step 6: Ironed the tie, tucked the fabric around the hole, and sewed it shut.

The result is very pleasing; an elegant, easy to tie, slim profile white tie with no visible seams showing when worn. I probably won't need it until 2013, but hey, I'm ready. Brooks Bros used to make a non-adjustable batwing white tie; I'm not sure if they do anymore...

Will get pic soon.

 

[Bugsy]

I have a white tie outfit I've worn once. The large butterfly tie that I ordered from the UK was annoying to tie, and looked way to big. Also, the metal adjuster seemed VERY visible on the side of my collar. Recalling the slim batwing white ties on TV shows like "Downton Abbey", I decided to make a non-adjustable one myself in a similar pattern. I ordered a yard of pique/marcella on the 'Bay for $15 plus shipping.

Step 1: Traced my the pattern (using another batwing tie that was adjusted to fit me) onto the pique with a pencil.
Step 2: Stapled this to another piece of pique (an inch or more away from my seam line, with a one inch gather or fold on one side.
Step 3: Using a backstich, I hand-sewed the two pieces together along the line of the pencil. I did not stitch for about an inch around the fold in the middle.
Step 4: I cut the middle of the fold on what will be the inside of the tie (the opening is the width of the tie, and about 1/4 inch wide).
Step 5: Using the tip of a fishing rod, I reversed the tie, pushing it through the hole I cut. A chopstick would probably work better.
Step 6: Ironed the tie, tucked the fabric around the hole, and sewed it shut.

The result is very pleasing; an elegant, easy to tie, slim profile white tie with no visible seams showing when worn. I probably won't need it until 2013, but hey, I'm ready. Brooks Bros used to make a non-adjustable batwing white tie; I'm not sure if they do anymore...

Will get pic soon.

Are you taking orders??? My sewing skills leave much to be desired.

 

[Egerland]

Are you taking orders??? My sewing skills leave much to be desired.

Sorry, too labor intensive. London's Ede & Ravenscroft has non-adjustable white ties for £ 29, if you don't mind the butterfly style.

 

[Feraud]

Are you taking orders??? My sewing skills leave much to be desired.

The Cordial Churchman is reasonably priced and does custom work.
http://thecordialchurchman.bigcartel.com/

 

[Bugsy]

Sorry, too labor intensive. London's Ede & Ravenscroft has non-adjustable white ties for £ 29, if you don't mind the butterfly style.

I understand. I wasn't too serious.

 

[svxpac]

Hello Everyone.
I am new to formal wear. I received a vintage tux from my sister who has a antique store. I need a tux for orchestra. We are performing Handel's MESSIAH this coming Monday evening. I would like some help learning about it; it's age, value when new, etc. From what I have read, I believe it is from the 1920s. It has peaked lapels and button fly on the trousers. I have chosen the label for my AVITAR. Hopefully, this will spark some interest. Any reply would be welcome.
Thank you.
SVXPAC

 

[Tomasso]

I would like some help learning about it

Photos would be helpful. Rothschilds were a better Midwestern department store chain based out of Chicago.

 

[S_M_Cumberworth]

I just received a mid-1930s Richman Brothers tuxedo in pristine condition. (Even the lining of the arms shows no yellowing whatsoever — it's still brilliantly white.)

There are two things about the tuxedo that I'm confused about, though. First, the rise of the pants is about an inch shorter than what I'd expect from something of this period. They probably have the shortest rise of any of my vintage pants (and I've got a couple dozen pairs). Second, the pants have belt loops. I was under the impression that because no one in their right mind would wear a belt with evening wear, tailors never included belt loops on such pants.

Granted, this is my first tuxedo, so I don't exactly know what to expect from real-world examples. All of my knowledge of formal wear comes from reading about it here and elsewhere.

——S.

 

[dhermann1]

I'd be curious to know what style it is, double breasted or single breasted, peak lapels, etc. Richman Bros. was not exactly a high end brand. (My main association with them is their big signs painted on the sides of barns across upstate New York years ago.) I wonder if they were just saving material with the low waist.
As always, I expect the definitive answer will come form Monsieur Chevalier.

 

[dhermann1]

Hello Everyone.
I am new to formal wear. I received a vintage tux from my sister who has a antique store. I need a tux for orchestra. We are performing Handel's MESSIAH this coming Monday evening. I would like some help learning about it; it's age, value when new, etc. From what I have read, I believe it is from the 1920s. It has peaked lapels and button fly on the trousers. I have chosen the label for my AVITAR. Hopefully, this will spark some interest. Any reply would be welcome.
Thank you.
SVXPAC

You might want to think about this style of vest. (But in black!). This is the only brand I could find on short notice, but there are others. You want the low rise style, rather than the higher rise one that's ubiquitous now.
http://www.formalwear-outlet.com/j779.html

A cummerbund would be OK also, but the waistcoat is really correct.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Richman Bros. was not exactly a high end brand.

You'd be surprised. In fact, Richman Brothers offered a range of quality, depending on the price point. Their highest priced suit lines were very good.


In the photo below, I'm wearing a 1937 tuxedo made by Richman Brothers. The quality is outstanding, IMO.

 

[S_M_Cumberworth]

I'd be curious to know what style it is, double breasted or single breasted, peak lapels, etc.

It's single breasted, peak lapels. The vest is also a tad longer than what I'd expect.

 

[dhermann1]

Interesting to know about Richman Bros. Every barn in Chautauqua County NY, back in the 50's or 60's had either "Richman Brothers Clothing", or "Chew Mail Pouch Tobacco" covering its entire side.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Interesting to know about Richman Bros. Every barn in Chautauqua County NY, back in the 50's or 60's had either "Richman Brothers Clothing", or "Chew Mail Pouch Tobacco" covering its entire side.

Some more information ...


"The RICHMAN BROTHERS CO. manufactured and sold men's suits, furnishings, and hats, supplying a national network of stores from its 23-acre tailoring plant and offices at 1600 East 55th St. The firm began in 1879, when Henry Richman moved his manufacturing and wholesale clothing business to Cleveland from Portsmouth, OH. In 1907, the company took its present form when the founder's sons, Nathan, Charles, and Henry, opened retail outlets selling factory-produced men's clothing directly to customers, the first clothier to do so ...


Richman Brothers was a pioneer in innovative employee relations. Executives greeted employees by name, their birthdays were remembered, and there were no time clocks. It was the first industrial organization in the country to grant two-week (later three-week) paid vacations to all employees, and its company-paid benefits program and no-interest loans set an industry precedent. Under the direction of George Richman, a cousin of the three Richman brothers, the firm became the largest clothing chain in the nation during the 1950s, operating 119 retail outlets. Major expansion programs included the acquisition of Stein stores in 1959, a chain of 91 menswear stores in the South; the formation of the General Men's Wear Corp. in 1962 to operate leased menswear departments in discount-store chains; and a mid-1960s experiment, Adam's Row stores, in which the trendier fashions were marketed. In 1969 the company was sold to F.W. Woolworth Co. of New York. By the early 1990s the firm had become unprofitable and at the end of 1992 Woolworth closed its Richman unit, including nine stores in Cleveland and the Distribution Center located at the original plant on East 55th St."

 

[Tomasso]

the rise of the pants is about an inch shorter than what I'd expect from something of this period. They probably have the shortest rise of any of my vintage pants (and I've got a couple dozen pairs)..

Just a guess but is the suit a Short? That might explain the shorter rise. The rise of the trousers are commensurate with jacket length (Short-Regular-Long-XLong) . Most odd trousers are cut with a Regular rise.

the pants have belt loops. I was under the impression that because no one in their right mind would wear a belt with evening wear, tailors never included belt loops on such pants.

There's nothing wrong with wearing a belt with formal wear. After all, a vest or cummerbund will be covering it up. As I recall, Polo used to include unattached belt loops with their formal wear rigs along with attached suspender buttons.

 

[dhermann1]

Marc: This is making me think it would be nice to have a thread or a sticky of various manufacturers' histories. I fnd this fascinating. The Richman story sort of parallels the Robert Hall story. Also, the Hickey Freeman story is fascinating.

 

[S_M_Cumberworth]

Just a guess but is the suit a Short? That might explain the shorter rise. The rise of the trousers are commensurate with jacket length (Short-Regular-Long-XLong) .

It's not. The length of the jacket seems pretty standard. On a related note, the original owner was a rather tall, thin man. The tuxedo is a 36, but before I got it altered, the trouser inseam was about a 34", and the jacket sleeve length (from shoulder seam to cuff) was about 26".

There's nothing wrong with wearing a belt with formal wear. After all, a vest or cummerbund will be covering it up. As I recall, Polo used to include unattached belt loops with their formal wear rigs along with attached suspender buttons.

That's good to know.