Dating borsalino liner logos

[K.D. Lightner]

Did the hat belong to one owner? Could it have been created in 1942 for some Italian dignitary (for, in every country, they always managed to get the fancy stuff in wartime rationing), and, could it, after the war have been sold to an American? And then made its way to Matt?

Just fanciful thinking.

If hats could talk.....

karol

 

[Matt Deckard]

I doubt it's a special run hat, I think it's just an off the shelf That was sold through a men's shop in Milwaukee, You see hats like this in photos all the time, though rarely in person nowadays.
looking in one of my grey Borsalinos if the dating is correct it says 41, this gives me the same dilemna as the bone colored one. Welted edge, full liner, wind string, dense thick felt and sold in the US.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I just got another Borsalino last night. It belonged to my great uncle, who passed away in in 1985, and I finally got a hold of it. It doesn't seem to match up to the number/date system, either, as the number would seem to indicate it was made in 1929. It's a nice, dark grey velour finish hat, with a soft brown leather sweatband like my other one. The liner has is similar in color to the first hat GCollins pictured, white with a gold top, the gold being covered in a papery-plastic film. The logo shows a sailing ship, and reads "Marca Colombo, Antica Casa, Borsalino, Alessandria. The script on the sweat is in Italian, and the hat size is a European 6 1/2, which is an American 7 1/2. Slightly large for me, but it works. The sweat also has "XX" at the front.

What really makes me think this is a 1950s hat is there is what seems like a rubberized small sweatband underneath the brown leather one, something my 1940s model does not have. That seems like a more modern addition, and with the serial being 29976, sort of blows the theory out of the water. Maybe they dated their hats by the serial at some point, and changed by the 1950s.

That hat is soft and lightweight, though not as light as my older hat. Silverfish have nibbled at it here and there, but it's still serviceable. I'll try to post photos later.

Brad

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Brad -- I am glad to hear someone saved that hat for 20 years and now it is yours. I look forward to photos!

Could the rubbery sweatband be something that was added later? Would the year 1929 correlate with the time your great uncle might have purchased it? Do you know how long he had it?

Maybe it really is that old.

karol

 

[Wild Root]

I think that if the liner matches the first one that was pictured, then it's not a 1929 hat. They started to cover the logo with oil cloth in the late 40's I think. Not in the 20's I'm sure.

So Brad, I'm sure your hat is not from the 1929 vintage and I'm sure you feel the same way.

But, it would be cool if you knew when your Grandfather bought the hat! Might help out a little.

Root.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Yep, it doesn't seem like a 1929 hat, for certain. Kind of blows the serial number/date theory a bit. Besides, my uncle would have been only 17 in 1929, and I don't think he would have been buying a Borsalino at that age, not as poor as my family was then. My uncle was in politics in the '50s, so I can see him buying or being given a Borsalino then.

So, we're left to wonder about the serial numbers. Older hats seem to match up, it seems like, but the newer hats don't. They must have switched at some point.

karol, I think the rubberized cloth thing is part of the original hat, as it seems like something that a lot of modern hats have. Still, I'm glad the family saved it. A nice heirloom, something we have too few of in this family.

Brad

 

[Wild Root]

Boy, that sounds about right. Well, regardless of the year of the hat, it's cool that you have it in your family!

Photos would be cool to see soon!

Night,

Root.

 

[gcollins]

Great insights, everyone.

Brad, what is the number in your hat with the similar liner and logo as the first one in my pics?

I also note that yours is from Europe also with the Euro sizing. I wonder if there is a different numbering system for the Euro hats vs those sold in the US?

The number in the first hat I pictured there is: 78740A. It's bought in Venice. But it can't be from 78, not this style and felt quality. there is also another number there preceeding the above one: 10K48

what do you think?

 

[gcollins]

Well, which logo did you think was older and what did the code say? The seventh, sixth, fourth and third are likely 40s Borsalino liners. The fifth and first look like 50s liners. The second is a 70s liner. Does that match the date codes assigned to the serial number?
J

Thanks, JP, besides the first one which doesn't seem right to me, the #6 hat (the hat marked silver) has a code 7767A. But with that 40s logo and the creme silk (not satin) liner, it can't be a hat from 1977. It is a US sized hat.

thanks,
G

 

[Brad Bowers]

G,

The number on the right side of the paper tage is 3A982, and below it says "Narvalo." On the left side is the number 29976, which I'm guessing is the serial number.

The logo is different than in your liner, as mine is a square block shape with the ship in it, but the colors of the liner fabric match your first hat.

Here are a couple of quick photos. I still need to finish cleaning it up and reshape the brim a bit.

http://public.fotki.com/jbbowers/fedoras/b1.html
http://public.fotki.com/jbbowers/fedoras/b2.html

Has anybody seen a "Colombo" logo before? The word "Colombo" and the ship are featured far more prominently than the Borsalino name. Why would they be celebrating Christopher Columbus with a hat? Possibly the 500th anniversary of his birth in 1451?

A story about my other Borsalino: Two nights ago, I was helping my mother check into her motel, and the customer ahead of us was obviously in the construction business, from by his work clothes and his truck. After he was finished checking in, he stepped back from the counter and said, "Nice hat. Where'd you get it?" I explained I won it on eBay, and held it up for him to see. He said, "Wow, that's the real deal! An old Borsalino!"

We talked about old hats a bit, and then he left, but it goes to show that there are still folks out there who know something about hats, and you'd never guess it just looking at them. I found it interesting that he considered old hats to be "real" hats, and not the modern ones.

Brad

 

[Wild Root]

(I found it interesting that he considered old hats to be "real" hats, and not the modern ones.)

Very interesting! I guess I feel the same about it. They just don't make them like they used to.

Root.

 

[jamespowers]

Brad, that is a nice hat. You are completely right in assuming that it is commemorating Columbus. I am not sure of the year but 1951 sounds right and would be my guess for the hat. The Italian mark that you mention in the hat certainly points to Columbus with the logo and all.
I nearly forgot to mention that the rubber like band behind the sweatband is there to prevent sweat from going through to the felt and staining the felt/ribbon. They thought of everything in those days.
Hmmm.... size 7 1/2 that might just be too big for you. Might fit me though.
The guy's remark about real hats is as real as it gets. Now aren't you glad you bought that hat?

Regards to all,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Great insights, everyone.

Brad, what is the number in your hat with the similar liner and logo as the first one in my pics?

I also note that yours is from Europe also with the Euro sizing. I wonder if there is a different numbering system for the Euro hats vs those sold in the US?

The number in the first hat I pictured there is: 78740A. It's bought in Venice. But it can't be from 78, not this style and felt quality. there is also another number there preceeding the above one: 10K48

what do you think?

Could the last two digits be the date code in this case? I could see it being made in 1948. Say October 1948. The factory would have been back up and running by that time after the war and producing hats for the european market. That might explain it but I am not sure.

Regards to all,

J

 

[riccardo]

Good evening,
today i've founded this Borsalino

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/riccardofulgoni/Immagine004.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/riccardofulgoni/Immagine003.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/riccardofulgoni/Immagine002.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/riccardofulgoni/Immagine005.jpg




I take these pics with my Pc camera...the quality is this!!

The glued tag has this number : 1A041 30521 F
and these word: Pomice c. Rulenio Caukosti

The liner logo says " qualità extra extra superiore"

The leather sweatband is new (never used) ,but i accidentally remove it ; the liner is a little stained; i would like to send it for reblock and cleaner; i would like to leave on it the old sweatband (it has write on the name of the seller) and the liner, what do you think about?
Anyone can say the age of this Borsalino, i have readed this thread but i cannot dating this hat.

Thanks in advance.
Best regards.

Riccardo

 

[indylion]

Thomas & More in Chicago

Thanks for the info. I got 2 hats in the 70's from Thomas & More in Chicago.
I forgot the exact year. But now I know it was 1977 and 78. That store on the southside has long been closed. I was married with 4 small kids, and I could not afford to pay full retail (around $125). But each season that store had a 50% off after-Xmas sale. I got a black hat in 77 and a brown hat in 78. I still have both hat, and they are in great shape. In recent years both hats were bumped from the starting lineup by a couple of hats from the Optimo Hat store in Chicago.

 

[BellyTank]

So what about this one..?

How old roughly is this Borsalino?

Thanks,

B
T

 

[besdor]

I dont know how accurate this dating system is . Borsalino did start to put in dates in their hats around 1976 . This would be on the white body ticket under the lining .
Another way to tell is hats meant for the US market will have the imprint "original house " printed in English instead of "antica casa" . This is prior to 1985 when the factory moved to Spinetta Marengo from their old factory in Alessandria . It was also at that point that they stopped sewing in linings and started to glue them in . It was all downfall from there .

 

[BellyTank]

...actually, I just found this one in another thread- it belongs to Brad Bowers.
The labeling seems similar to Brad's example, which is thought to be a 1930s example.

This is the thread which Brad's hat is mentioned in:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=1616

The hat I'm asking about is a European market offering.

B
T

 

[Brad Bowers]

BT,

You beat me to it! I was going to post that it has the same crest as my hat. If you go by the serial number/date idea, this would be from 1948, which is about right for what I guess the age of the hat to be. It could be from the '30s, but I think it's the next decade.

Brad

 

[FLJones]

I recently purchased a borsalino which has a logo similar to mouse grey in the original post and those of Bellytank. The tag reads 2783P. The lining is sewn. I would assume from the previous posts, the tag reads American size not metric and "original house", that it was made in 1983. The box is octagonal in shape with a gold banding. There are strings tieing the top. I'll post a picture when possible.

I have a couple of Borsalino's purchased in 2003 which seem lightweight and clearly of inferior quality to the 1983. There are no tags under the brim and the liner is glued.

Ron