'30s Vintage German Homburg, non-Homburg and Fedora

[Mid-fogey]

Very...

...nice. I wish Homburgs were as acceptable to wear as fedoras.

 

[Fletch]

What makes the "non-Homburg"? Is it the lack of edge banding?

 

[BellyTank]

From my observations- a Homburg has a deeper roll to the brim and the sides of the brim roll up further. And a bound edge.
A Homburg is, I think defined by all of these details.

My example seems to be a snap-less Fedora, with an evenly rolled, un-bound brim.
The brim roll is not so deep- not really a roll, not much more than vertical.
I forgot to mention- the edge has an up-welt.


B
T

 

[Fletch]

I'd put it in the homburg class. Perhaps call it a löbeck, or a kiol.
(Names of other German port cities with o's put in. Hamburg - Lübeck - Kiel lol)

 

[Art Fawcett]

Three beautiful examples of the era BT. I agree with your age assesment as they are all typical for the era, but I'm not so sure I agree with the India not being a Homburg. Of course, without being able to see it in person and really study it this is speculation, but I would ask you to expand your idea of exactly what a Homburg is. Many have unbound edges, often with overwelts or Cavanaugh edges, and not all curls need to be exact in order to qualify. I have seen so many variations that it's hard to pigeonhole the exact definition. Personally, based solely on these pics, I would think it a Homburg.
Note the leather stitching...VERY difficult to do even with the correct machine. ( non reeded sweat) I own two of the correct sewing machines and have never been able to get them adjusted correctly to finish a single sweat without breaking one of the two threads needed. I was fortunate to spend time with an elderly hatter ( my guess is in his 90s) who just said "good luck getting them right...they didn't work well even when they were new" Needless to say, he hated them.

 

[Fletch]

Three beautiful examples of the era BT. I agree with your age assesment as they are all typical for the era, but I'm not so sure I agree with the India not being a Homburg. Of course, without being able to see it in person and really study it this is speculation, but I would ask you to expand your idea of exactly what a Homburg is.

We may be witnessing a bit of "aficionadoism" here, akin to what's happened with A-2 jackets.
For years after WW2, anything that looked basically like this

got called an A-2. Now it has to have a single back panel, no hand warmers, no waist snaps, etc.

An inevitable consequence of an age of free flowing information is that things sometimes get too precisely defined. Infinite pigeons for infinite holes.

 

[BellyTank]

Three beautiful examples of the era BT. I agree with your age assesment as they are all typical for the era, but I'm not so sure I agree with the India not being a Homburg. Of course, without being able to see it in person and really study it this is speculation, but I would ask you to expand your idea of exactly what a Homburg is. Many have unbound edges, often with overwelts or Cavanaugh edges, and not all curls need to be exact in order to qualify. I have seen so many variations that it's hard to pigeonhole the exact definition. Personally, based solely on these pics, I would think it a Homburg.
Note the leather stitching...VERY difficult to do even with the correct machine. ( non reeded sweat) I own two of the correct sewing machines and have never been able to get them adjusted correctly to finish a single sweat without breaking one of the two threads needed. I was fortunate to spend time with an elderly hatter ( my guess is in his 90s) who just said "good luck getting them right...they didn't work well even when they were new" Needless to say, he hated them.

Hi Art- thanks for your input.

...hence my name; non-Homburg.
The brim is actually quite flat, apart from the "roll".

Yes- it has a Homburg look to it but to answer your question:
MY stereotype of a Homburg has a larger, deeper roll, with the roll higher at the sides, a length-wise crease of course, a "bow" and matching bound brim edge. That is what I consider a typical Homburg. The "India" seems taller of crown and flatter of brim than my designs on a Homburg. My impression of a Homburg is probably more of a European one.
It has a wind cord too.

But it does not have a snap-down-able brim.

I guess my idea of a Homburg is too precise/Fedora imprecise.
I don't want to re-ignite the Homburg argument again.

No- I haven't seen reeded sweatbands on older European hats.

What about that eagle, eh..?


B
T

 

[Dinerman]

Very cool. That India is amazing.

 

[DOUGLAS]

WOW, Bellytank Those are spectacular. Is the sweat ribbon an adjustable type on the India and the Phoenix or are they decorative?

 

[BellyTank]

Hi Douglas-

Thanks.
The sweat ribbons are functional on both.

Thanks Dinerman, too.

B
T

 

[thunderw21]

Those are very nice, I especially like the Gompertz.

 

[reetpleat]

We may be witnessing a bit of "aficionadoism" here, akin to what's happened with A-2 jackets.
For years after WW2, anything that looked basically like this

got called an A-2. Now it has to have a single back panel, no hand warmers, no waist snaps, etc.

An inevitable consequence of an age of free flowing information is that things sometimes get too precisely defined. Infinite pigeons for infinite holes.

Indeed. Just as I have alwasy said, Musicians make music. Critics put labels on it.

In this case. a hatter made a hat in a certain style. Weather someone would cclassify it a a homburg is all about their somewhat random definition and criteria.

Beautiful hats at any rate.

 

[AlanC]

Hat trick

Excellent all the way around. I love the India.

 

[J.B.]

In all seriousness, you make an incredibly astute observation here...

We may be witnessing a bit of "aficionadoism" here...An inevitable consequence of an age of free flowing information is that things sometimes get too precisely defined. Infinite pigeons for infinite holes.

...but frankly, the subject lid is no hÔmburg in my book because I am able to clearly ascertaiñ from the closeuþ pic that the høøt in question does not exhibit the obligatory S.S. Kresge 1928 Guggenmheimer-brand Catguttenweiß logo No. 422 hutmacher thread! (A closer scrutiny of the fourteenth stitch from the left clearly reveals the dearth of that slightly diminished gloss so prevalent in the Guggenheimer!)

Mm-hmm. Oh yisssssss. Bingo. I gotcha on that one. Big time. A real "aha" moment, eh? Oh yeah. wÖÖ-hÖÖ!

You seem to have conveniently fürgotten that we agreed upon that specific thread as being a bona fide vintage homberg identification requirement at the last Hòmberg Criteriæ Caucus at Seacaucus last September! (Or was it the Beâver Banquet at Bræmerhavën??) See -- I'm that nerdy guy at the back of those symposiums that's takin' notes while all the rest of you are out shmœzing with the eBay-sniping intelligentsia?! All my work has finally paid off!

Anyway, I'm outta here. I gotta go get another Göetz to celebrate the expiration of mÿ keyboard's Alt key...

 

[BellyTank]

An inevitable consequence of an age of free flowing information is that things sometimes get too precisely defined. Infinite pigeons for infinite holes.

To paraphrase myself- it doesn't look like a typical Homburg to me.

B
T

 

[Fletch]

Then perhaps it's an atypical Homburg...lol

 

[BellyTank]

Sounds fair.

B
T

 

[mineral]

What about that eagle, eh..?

I find it interesting to observe that the Nazi propagandistic promotion of state power does indeed go down to even everyday items like the hats they make.

Or it might be my wrong impression of course, but the logo just screams out its Nazi-era heritage to me.

 

[BellyTank]

Maybe.
It does have an element of the Reichsadler but we cannot really be sure.

B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Dem Euros and their eagles, eh?

Lovely hats, Mr BT. Very fine indeed. I am in love with the 'India'. Great stuffs. 'n the fuzzy Gompertz ain't too shabby neither.

There's a chap who runs a store here who's been sourcing a lot of euro gear and i've finally prevailed upon him to ignore the size 53, 54 and 55 hats. His last batch had some 56s and 57s. Lots of German and French numbers. Mostly Homburgs . . . some resembling the type you show here. Maybe he'll get into the sizes he can actually sell at some point.

bk