'30s Vintage German Homburg, non-Homburg and Fedora

[J.T.Marcus]

... Of course, without being able to see it in person and really study it this is speculation...

I know what Art means! He's kind of busy right now, but if you will send the "India" to me, I will be delighted to carefully examine it to the fullest, and render my considered assessment. However this may take some time.*

*disclaimer: The above offer applies only if said hat is a size 7 1/8.

lol

 

[Kevin Popejoy]

Not-so-recent acquisitions but hitherto unshared.

The "India", non-Homburg (don't know exactly what to call this type of non-snap/roll-edged Fedora),
with interesting Eagle logo.
Nice ribbon treatment. Colour is grey, with a violet hue.

Beautiful hat BT! Understand I've had a martini...but I really think you're over analyzing. It's a Homburg. Nice discussion just the same .

I really love the ribbon treatment. Art, you should do an article on ribbon installation (in your copious spare time). I'd love to know how that one's done.

All the best, k

 

[jake_fink]

Wow. Beautiful. Thanks.

 

[mineral]

Maybe.
It does have an element of the Reichsadler but we cannot really be sure.

B
T

Yeah, there's no way to be sure. While the German eagle has been a symbol since even the Medieval days, what I find particular "disquieting" about this eagle are the way the feathers are depicted, the circle behind the eagle, and the eagle's head pointing towards the left shoulder. Maybe some expert about this sort of thing can comment about it ...

Or maybe it's just better not to give too much thought to it. It's a wonderful hat.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

what I find particular "disquieting" about this eagle are the way the feathers are depicted, the circle behind the eagle, and the eagle's head pointing towards the left shoulder.

Ah, but here we are at the problem of "good" art deco and streamline moderne versus "bad" Nazi design and (ambiguous, given many artists' life?) Soviet futuralism and functionalism. Sometimes they're so similar one could think they didn't emerge entirely independently.

Interestingly, but that's my non-expert personal opinion, Nazi design is usually simply bad in terms of quality, at least the further developments after they seized power. Often just ridiculous, and even where it's about making the ordinary Jow feel smaller, others such as the architects of Gothic cathedrals did a better job.

 

[Edward]

I like the hats. I did get to wondering, reading the thread, whether by any slim chance the "atypical Homberg" could have been a Homberg that somebody a long time ago was trying to convert into a more fedora-type hat?

 

[BellyTank]

I like the hats. I did get to wondering, reading the thread, whether by any slim chance the "atypical Homberg" could have been a Homberg that somebody a long time ago was trying to convert into a more fedora-type hat?

Hi Edward.
Nope.

It's an old hat with a fairly flat, non-snap brim with an up-tilted, not-really-rolled, up-welted edge.
Hasn't been toyed with, just another hat variation. It was squashed into a too-small box, so the sides of the brim are actually more "up" than they should be. I haven't given it any attention yet.
The photo is probably a little misleading, now that I've dwelt on it.

B
T

 

[woodsie]

Nice hats

What size are these beauties?

 

[Art Fawcett]

WOW...didn't mean to start any controversy here BT. I missed the Homburg thread so I don't know what any arguement was about , guess I'll have to do some research on my own there.
Cataloguing hats ( any collection of any sort of item) usually have some "black sheep" that are hard to completely fit in to our notions so I see this as one of those, simply that. I give the term Homburg wider berth than you, that's all.
As for the eagle? interesting given the political climate there but we were also going through our own problems at the time and one of our "symbols" was also the eagle and quite often you'll find the NRA (National Recovery Act) in our clothing items in the thirties. Therefore, I'm focussing on the hat, not any messages from politics.
As an aside, it IS interesting how political events change fashion. The wife and I used to put on fashion shows and in the commentary would usually be able to show fashion differences connecting to world/political events. Much does correspond.

 

[BellyTank]

WOW...didn't mean to start any controversy here BT.

I don't think YOU did, Art.
I was asked by you, to expand on my meaning, fine- then told off by another
for over-analyzing. Surely, this place wouldn't be here if there were no room for discussion.
The intention of my term; "non-Homburg" was to describe a similarity to,
yet distance from..., when offered up for appraisal beside a more archetypal Homburg and a Fedora.

B
T

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

My Borsalino from Saigon has a very similar brim treatment. I don't think it was uncommon in the teens and '20s.

 

[BellyTank]

True.


B
T

 

[carter]

BT, Thanks for sharing the photos of three beautiful vintage hats. :eusa_clap

 

[feltfan]

I find I am haunted by these non-standard, unlined homburgs, BT.
They have that outstanding, old fashioned, generous crown look
that I love so much. Their non-standard appearance is so
gratifying in and of itself. The homburg had not yet calcified
into the formula we see from postwar era to today.

Thanks so much for sharing pictures. These don't come
around much, at least in the USA.
If you come across one in size 60-61, do let me know!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

2 sub plots to this thread to be commented upon.

1) The eagle. I'm just not seeing "Nazi" in that eagle. Looks very NRA . . . or any other 30s stylized eagle.

2) Jake Fink posted! [edit: I had the notion he hadn't been around in a while. Seems it's me who hasn't been around . . . at least not in the threads he's been posting in]

bk

 

[Forgotten Man]

...nice. I wish Homburgs were as acceptable to wear as fedoras.

I say wear them! I do on occasion! remember, this day and age even Fedoras aren't as acceptable to wear as ball caps are.

 

[tandmark]

Hi,

I vote with those who consider BellyTank's non-homburg to be a type of homburg. The difference between this hat and any other homburg seems to be to be a difference without a distinction. There's just not enough non-homburgness about it to make it not a homburg.

If it weren't getting rather late, I'd post some photos of a very similar Italian (non-)homburg from my own collection, perhaps from the 1950s, perhaps from the 1930s. A recent eBay find in either case. Maybe photos will happen tomorrow?

I also side with Baron Kurtz on the eagle. To my eye, it's standard-issue art deco, not particularly reminiscent of Nazi iconography at all.

If it *were* Nazi iconography, don't you think it'd be a lot more blatant about it? The Nazis weren't exactly renowned for their subtlety.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[indycop]

I haven't been following this one too much but I have a deutchmark from the 80's with the eagle. It (the eagle) was still a common sight just a bit different.

 

[mineral]

My, it seems like I have triggered quite a discussion! Upon looking further into it though, I can't help but be more convinced that it is indeed a mark of association with the Nazis.

After all, creating logos with the national emblem (the eagle for the German state, as seen in the Indycop's coin) is at the least a statement of identification with the state. While the eagle has been a German symbol even before the Nazis came along, it wasn't drawn in the same style as the one in the hat logo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coat_of_Arms_of_Germany.svg

Then the Nazis came along and started drawing the eagle like this:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters2.htm

with, as far as I know, the outstretched horizontal wings in a very aggressive pose as a particular hallmark of theirs.

Unless I'm wrong, by the 1930's Germans probably would be associating, at least, in their minds, that sort of eagle drawing with the Nazis given their extensive use by the Nazis from the SA uniform to propaganda posters. And as the hat is made in the era, I wouldn't be surprised if the hat makers want to show their allegiance to the state or to the party in their logo as well.

 

[KObalto]

The much maligned bird

is not an eagle, IMHO. I don't believe the hat is political in any sense. What is printed on the band of the second hat? The word "Phonix". Call me crazy, but I'm thinking the first one is also a phoenix whose wings are spread because it's rising from the ashes. Cool hats, BTW. And I think you'd have to have a good explanation for what INDIA stood for before you could label it some kind of Nazi hat.