White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

[STEVIEBOY1]

Thanks - there's certainly cold weather on the way and potential more snow here! I will probably give the sub and an Irvin a bit of an airing tongiht at the Beamish Christmas night I'm going to. Any excuse and it looks like it will be bloomin freezing!!

That sounds like a very good plan. I have been to Beamish a few times, the most recent was in the summer of this year, but I have also been there in a Cold and Wet January and it was very cold and windy then. It is a great place to visit though and I am sure looks great at this time of the year.

 

[Paulgo253]

That sounds like a very good plan. I have been to Beamish a few times, the most recent was in the summer of this year, but I have also been there in a Cold and Wet January and it was very cold and windy then. It is a great place to visit though and I am sure looks great at this time of the year.

Beamish is wonderful and luckily it's only a couple of miles from us. My wife works in the tea rooms at the moment so I'm getting to spend even more time there. It was truly baltic on Thursday night but with my newly aquired sub under my early war irvin I was toasty all night!

 

[BlueTrain]

There were also a few other things just for issue to submariners but I took no note of them.

I find old army manuals and regulations to be fascinating. Soldiers were issued very little two hundred years ago and had to pay for some of it themselves ("necessaries"). But one has to be careful to remember to the difference between official and reality, as well as to keep in mind the time period and circumstances. Sometimes what is specified in regulations merely confirms what the soldiers had been doing all along. There is also a distinct fashion element present in uniforms in most armies. Then, too, uniforms are constantly evolving. Another thing is that , looking back at the history of uniforms, we tend to compress time, and think that twenty years is no time at all. Yet that can be a career soldier's total time in service.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

There were also a few other things just for issue to submariners but I took no note of them.

I find old army manuals and regulations to be fascinating. Soldiers were issued very little two hundred years ago and had to pay for some of it themselves ("necessaries"). But one has to be careful to remember to the difference between official and reality, as well as to keep in mind the time period and circumstances. Sometimes what is specified in regulations merely confirms what the soldiers had been doing all along. There is also a distinct fashion element present in uniforms in most armies. Then, too, uniforms are constantly evolving. Another thing is that , looking back at the history of uniforms, we tend to compress time, and think that twenty years is no time at all. Yet that can be a career soldier's total time in service.

Yes the conditions for Soldiers and Sailors, especially in the lower ranks, were verycharsh indeed, really I suppose up until about the 1920s. Conditions, discipline and after they had left all were not good.

 

[BlueTrain]

Conditions before they went is were not good, either. Poverty is an efficient recruiting sergeant.

White roll-neck sweaters, it occurs to me, were probably only RN issue, weren't they? Yet I have seen several photos of soldiers wearing them (in WWII). That's another instance of the shortcomings of relying on photographic evidence.

 

[DrMacabre]

Hello, i just received my sweater from a UK seller on ebay, i haven't seen anyone mentioning this sweater so i took the dive like any good submariner would they are £59 plus shipping and since they are my first submariner sweater i can't really tell about the quality. It's a size small, the arm are well, small, i won't be able to roll the sleeve unless there is some sort or miracle but the rest fits me pretty well. The wool is a little hitchy but nothing serious, remind me of my ww2 wool shirt.

 

[kowalski]

Hi DrMacabre
It very nice roll neck
Ihave question ; you could give your dimensions? High , kg ?
best regards

 

[BlueTrain]

Fit of any garment is a peculiar thing and is subject to the whims of fashion, even to include the military. Photos seem to suggest that jerseys were worn rather over-sized. They were certainly not dress garments. Leather flying jacket on the other hand, seemed to have been a relatively snug fit, possibly because they would have been worn underneath a parachute harness. Sometimes the sizing on a garment is confusing because of the way a particular garment is intended to be worn and the "end users" don't wear them that way.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Hello, i just received my sweater from a UK seller on ebay, i haven't seen anyone mentioning this sweater so i took the dive like any good submariner would they are £59 plus shipping and since they are my first submariner sweater i can't really tell about the quality. It's a size small, the arm are well, small, i won't be able to roll the sleeve unless there is some sort or miracle but the rest fits me pretty well. The wool is a little hitchy but nothing serious, remind me of my ww2 wool shirt.

View attachment 97552 View attachment 97553

That sweater looks absolutely fine on you Sir.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Conditions before they went is were not good, either. Poverty is an efficient recruiting sergeant.

White roll-neck sweaters, it occurs to me, were probably only RN issue, weren't they? Yet I have seen several photos of soldiers wearing them (in WWII). That's another instance of the shortcomings of relying on photographic evidence.

Yes I think the white roll neck sweaters were issued to the RN, but a similar jersey was issued to the RAF too. I think it was probably quite easy to obtain those pullovers which is perhaps what the soldiers that you have seen the pictures of did.

 

[BlueTrain]

I suspect that it was often a matter of association. During the war, soldiers, especially Commandos at first, would have been aboard ship and a certain amount of trading might have taken place. The use of unofficial clothing, that is, clothing not authorized for a particular individual, as well as captured material, is subject to the whim of commanding officers and even more so to the sergeant major. It is even more subject to availability, even for those items that one is supposed to be issued. This has been true for a long time and is still true today. It is particularly true during wartime when rules are sometimes relaxed and there is a lot of movement of troops. At the same time, during wartime, there are usually shortages as well as the introduction of new items. It is confusing for the enthusiast at a distance of 75 years.

Regarding sweaters, they have been on issue in some armies, off and on, for over a hundred years in one form or another. The United States Army, for instance, had a heavy wool sweater on issue before WWI that was apparently intended to replace the coat in the field. I've seen photos of it being worn on the Mexican border but not in France.

Another thing that happens is that at a historical distance, we tend to give distinctions (and sometimes names) to things that did not exist at the time they were in common use, at least not by those who wore them. When I was in the army, there were two different field jackets (coats, officially) being issued when I was being issued clothing and there were four distinctly different fatigue "jackets" in wear. Two different patterns were issued, although one was more common. Another pattern was for sale in the PX (as distinct from QM sales) and one old sergeant was still wearing his Korean war HBT fatigues. There was never anything (for the troops actually wearing those things) that took note of the different patterns in use. They were all just "fatigues."

Then came wash and wear fatigues.

 

[DrMacabre]

Hi DrMacabre
It very nice roll neck
Ihave question ; you could give your dimensions? High , kg ?
best regards

Thanks guys,

I'm 1m68 / 5'6 and approx. 55kg / 121 pounds but i have rather long arms which is why i can't roll the sleeve of the sweater.

 

[Gamma68]

I'm in the market for an affordable RAF sweater, off-white (natural) color. I'd like to wear one with my USN peacoat and German Police Jacket.

Does anyone here have experience with the one offered by What Price Glory? Seems like a good product at a nice price, but can anyone speak to quality of wool/construction?

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/1005-UK-RAF-Submarine-sweater/

 

[BlueTrain]

Sorry but I have no experience with their wool jersey, although I've ordered other things from WPG. But overall, I'm willing to guess that most people simply order things that are the wrong size, and usually too small. I know that I'm a little bigger than I was when I got out of the army and that I probably think I'm still the same size. But how much could I have grown in 50 years, anyway?

 

[Ticklishchap]

I'm in the market for an affordable RAF sweater, off-white (natural) color. I'd like to wear one with my USN peacoat and German Police Jacket.

Does anyone here have experience with the one offered by What Price Glory? Seems like a good product at a nice price, but can anyone speak to quality of wool/construction?

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/1005-UK-RAF-Submarine-sweater/

I have been very happy with the one I bought from Silverman’s many many years ago. They still issue it and Outdoor Knitwear do a similar version. I can vouch for both but do not know about the WPG model.

 

[Gamma68]

I have been very happy with the one I bought from Silverman’s many many years ago. They still issue it and Outdoor Knitwear do a similar version. I can vouch for both but do not know about the WPG model.

Those options look nice. But I'm in the USA, so British sources are cost-prohibitive, considering the exchange rate plus shipping.

 

[Fading Fast]

I'm in the market for an affordable RAF sweater, off-white (natural) color. I'd like to wear one with my USN peacoat and German Police Jacket.

Does anyone here have experience with the one offered by What Price Glory? Seems like a good product at a nice price, but can anyone speak to quality of wool/construction?

http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/1005-UK-RAF-Submarine-sweater/

Hi buddy - always good to see you on FL.

I have this one ⇩ coming from Guideboat - bought on post Xmas sale (just checked, there as still some in stock). I already own the navy one. It's not as heavy as North Sea, which works for me as the NS ones can only come out in brutally cold weather; whereas, this Guideboat one can be worn in "normal" cold weather.

It also fits me well (hard to say it has a good fit as that's so personal) but for 119 bucks, it is good value as it is a substantial sweater even if not in NS's class. And the cuffs and waist band are tight which I like - I hate when they are "loose" and become floppy.

http://www.guideboat.com/men-s/tops/men-s-sweaters-sweatshirts/submariner-sweater.html

 

[Gamma68]

Hi buddy - always good to see you on FL.

I have this one ⇩ coming from Guideboat - bought on post Xmas sale (just checked, there as still some in stock). I already own the navy one. It's not as heavy as North Sea, which works for me as the NS ones can only come out in brutally cold weather; whereas, this Guideboat one can be worn in "normal" cold weather.

It also fits me well (hard to say it has a good fit as that's so personal) but for 119 bucks, it is good value as it is a substantial sweater even if not in NS's class. And the cuffs and waist band are tight which I like - I hate when they are "loose" and become floppy.

http://www.guideboat.com/men-s/tops/men-s-sweaters-sweatshirts/submariner-sweater.html

View attachment 101618

Thanks, FF. I had forgotten Guideboat carried those.

Since you have the navy one, may I ask if you think it provides good warmth at temperatures below freezing? Or is it a more thin wool? Does it have a "rough" hand (like the LLB shetland sweaters) or more smooth like lambswool?

The Guideboat sale price still isn't as good as the $68 sweater from WPG. But I'm wondering if this is a situation where "you get what you pay for."

 

[Ticklishchap]

Thanks, FF. I had forgotten Guideboat carried those.

Since you have the navy one, may I ask if you think it provides good warmth at temperatures below freezing? Or is it a more thin wool? Does it have a "rough" hand (like the LLB shetland sweaters) or more smooth like lambswool?

The Guideboat sale price still isn't as good as the $68 sweater from WPG. But I'm wondering if this is a situation where "you get what you pay for."

Following on from this and your earlier message about British prices and postal costs, I would say that Mr Fading Fast's RAF sweater is identical to mine and so the Guideboat option would be the best for you. ... North Sea are having a sale and I am tempted by their Navy version of the roll neck - I didn't get round to buying it last year. It would add to my ridiculously large collection but ever expanding (like me!) collection of military-themed knitwear!

 

[Fading Fast]

Thanks, FF. I had forgotten Guideboat carried those.

Since you have the navy one, may I ask if you think it provides good warmth at temperatures below freezing? Or is it a more thin wool? Does it have a "rough" hand (like the LLB shetland sweaters) or more smooth like lambswool?

The Guideboat sale price still isn't as good as the $68 sweater from WPG. But I'm wondering if this is a situation where "you get what you pay for."

The Guideboat one definitely provides warmth in freezing temperatures - it is not thin - it is substantial (just less-substantial than the uber-substantial North Sea one). I wore it, alone, with an overcoat in 20 degree weather and was warm outside (while my toes froze). I would have been cold with only a LLB shetland and overcoat as the Bean Shetlands are lighter and have a less tight weave than this Guideboat one.

The Guideboat's hand is much less rough than a Shetland / it's a tight knit wool that feels closer to smooth but it has a slightly noticeable weave that gives it a touch of texture (it's hard to say, but I'd call it closer to a very heavy and tightly woven merino wool as my lambswools are softer but fuzzier than this sweater). It's similar to the North Sea one in texture, but definitely less scratchy (the NS is scratchy, the Guideboat one is only very modestly scratchy) and less heavy (still heavy, just not uber heavy).*

I'm not familiar with the WPG one (I have some things from WPG and find their quality inconsistent - some items good / some not-so good), but for the money (and thinking about North Sea and other sweater value in general), at $119, I'd call this one from Guideboat very fair / good-solid value, but not a steal.

* I hope this helps as it's hard to describe the nuance of texture and weight in words. To give you the best info, I went into our bedroom and laid out several sweaters (the North Sea one, the Guideboat one, a merino, a Shetland and a lambswool) on the bed. Of course, at that moment (as I'm comparing them by rubbing this one and then that one between my thumb and forefinger), my girlfriend popped by and gave me a "what the heck is up" look. When I told here I was answering a sweater question on Fedora, she chuckled pleasantly (she loves Fedora) and went on with her day as she already knows all of us are nuts.