The Open Road Guild

[ScottF]

Well, WineGuy, your lid presents an aspect of dating vintage ORs that has never really been addressed here on the Lounge, as far as I can tell. First off, let me just say that your liner is certainly consistent with a late 40's/early 50's liner. You definitely have a vintage OR on your hands.

Here's the interesting aspect -- I have always wondered when Stetson made a switch to put the words "Open Road" on the side of the sweat, versus using "The Open Road" logo at the front of the sweat (see Scott's OR above for an example). I have two ORs that date to the mid-50's -- one a Royal Stetson, the other a Royal DeLuxe -- that have this feature. The DeLuxe dates to around 1956, and I believe the Royal (which uses black logotype) dates to around 1954. I also have a couple of ORs that have sweats consistent with the late 40's that have "The Open Road" logo at the front of the sweat.

So, my theory is that the change occurred at some time in the early/mid 50's. There are still some questions that remain. For example, did "The Open Road" logo drop from sight entirely, or did it remain in Stetsons that were marketed as part of Stetson's western line? One way or the other, when did the logo re-appear on Open Roads generally? Note that there is yet another variation -- where the words "Open Road" (without the logo aspect) appeared at the front of the sweat.

So, back to your lid, WineGuy. My guess is that your OR dates to 1952/1953 or thereabouts. One other factor to nail down is the use of "Long Oval" on the side of the sweat -- this could refine the dating on your lid if we knew whether there was a cut-off date for this particular feature.

Cheers,
JtL

I have a linerless O.R. with the same sweat stamp as Wineguy's, less the 'long oval'. Mine has the OPS tag, so we know the switchover to 'Open Road' on the side had to have occurred before '53.

 

[jimmy the lid]

I have a linerless O.R. with the same sweat stamp as Wineguy's, less the 'long oval'. Mine has the OPS tag, so we know the switchover to 'Open Road' on the side had to have occurred before '53.

Nope. Not before 1953 -- but by 1953.

That detail helps a lot, Scott. Thanks.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

Just remembered -- I have a Stetson purchased at the Stetson company store in December 1948 that has "Long Oval" on the sweat. Don't know how long this practice lasted, however.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[WineGuy]

So Jimmy, does that mean that it's possible my hat is circa 1948 but not older than 1953?

 

[jimmy the lid]

So Jimmy, does that mean that it's possible my hat is circa 1948 but not older than 1953?

No, I think your hat is circa 1952 (meaning it could be a couple of years earlier or later).

Cheers,
JtL

 

[WineGuy]

Great, thank you for all the input, I appreciate it.

I'm curious, what markings would indicate a '48 or first generation OR?

 

[jimmy the lid]

So Jimmy, does that mean that it's possible my hat is circa 1948 but not older than 1953?

After reading through the last few posts, I'm going to re-visit this question and show you how I'm arriving at my conclusion. To me, the least useful posts on dating lids are when Loungers simply offer the bottom-line conclusion "That one's late 50's" or something similar. They may be right, they may be wrong, but that kind of opinion doesn't allow others to really learn anything. More importantly, by sharing how we arrive at our conclusions, it allows others to offer counter-examples that they may know of, and this helps us all to advance our collective knowledge in this area.

In addressing Wine Guy's question, I have tried to detail how I arrived at my conclusion on dating, but I think I can provide a bit more info that may be useful.

As I have already mentioned above, WineGuy's liner is consistent with a late 40's/early 50's liner. Post #3 in the Dating Vintage Stetsons by Liner thread shows a match to my Royal DeLuxe that has a stamped purchase date of December 1948. That lid also has "Long Oval" on the side of the sweat, as does WineGuy's OR. So, WineGuy, when you ask "Could this be circa 1948?", the answer, as an initial matter, is that the liner and "Long Oval" aspect of the sweat are both consistent with that timeframe. For convenience, here are the photos of the December 1948 lid (as posted in the Dating Vintage Stetsons by Liner thread):

Now, for purposes of comparison, here is WineGuy's sweat:

Anyone see anything different here? Take a look at the crest -- WineGuy's lid has the leaf in the crest instead of the stars. It is certainly true that Stetsons that post-date the change in the crest (to include the leaf) may nevertheless have a crest on the sweat containing the stars (see Stetson Crest Dating thread) -- but I have found that the opposite is not true. In other words, when the leaf shows up in the crest, either on the liner or the sweat, it means that the lid dates to sometime after the change in the crest (to include the leaf). When did this occur? I have a confirmed example of the leaf in the crest on a 3X dating to 1952. Interestingly, carouselvic reports in the Dating Vintage Stetsons by Liner thread that his 1952 Belmont has the same liner as the 1948 liner above (it would be nice to see a photo, Victor...). So, the available evidence suggests that 1952 may well have been the general timeframe for the shift over to the "Leaf Crest."

Notice something else about the sweat on WineGuy's OR -- take a look at the printing itself. Here is the sweat on my Royal DeLuxe OR that dates to circa 1956:

To my eye, the printing on Wineguy's lid is closer to the later version on the circa 1956 OR. This is subtle, and may not be significant, but I throw it out there in any event. Note, too, that it appears that the printing on WineGuy's sweat is not gold -- it looks to be white. I have found Stetsons with black logotype that generally date to around 1954 -- and it may be that some experimentation with the color of the logotype happened in the early to mid-50's. Here's an important point: this doesn't mean that different colored logotypes occurred only in this timeframe -- it means that different colored logotypes are consistent with this timeframe.

Moving on, I have found that my long oval Stetsonian, with OPS tag, does not have "Long Oval" printed on the side of the sweat. So, it may well be that, by 1953, Stetson had discontinued this particular feature. So, WineGuy, this may well indicate that your lid pre-dates 1953. (See how this is starting to narrow down? )

Now, for the last component -- the use of "Open Road" on the side of the sweat, versus the use of "The Open Road" logo on the front of the sweat. I will state that it is my own conclusion that the use of "The Open Road" logo on the front of the sweat pre-dates the other version. I base that on the following:

1. Scott's OR has a "Royal Stetson DeLuxe" liner, which, by definition, pre-dates the "Royal DeLuxe Stetson" designation. (Note: yes, there may have been some cross-over, but that would have occurred sooner rather than later). Scott's OR uses "The Open Road" logo at the front of the sweat.

2. I have two ORs that have the late 40's/early 50's liner, and that also have sweats containing the "Star Crest". (Incidentally, one of these lids -- a Royal DeLuxe OR -- has a seam at the side of the liner, as does the 1948 lid posted above). I believe that both of these lids pre-date WineGuy's OR (which has the Leaf Crest on the sweat), and both of these lids use "The Open Road" logo on the front of the sweat.

Taking all of this together, I think that the evidence strongly points to WineGuy's lid dating to circa 1952, as I have previously suggested.

OK, I know that was more than a mouthful. Hopefully, though, it provides a useful model on how to approach dating a vintage Stetson OR. And, importantly, it may well be that someone out there has a lid that provides evidence that my thinking may be wrong on certain points -- but we'll only know that by comparing notes, as I have attempted to do here.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[ScottF]

...

3. That being said, RBH has also posted a variety of ads that make it pretty clear that, back in the day, it was quite common for a hatter to offer to customize one's hat purchase by putting on a different style of ribbon. So, as others have already observed here, the mere fact that there is a wide ribbon on Scott's hat doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't leave the hat store that way many years ago -- but I'm not sure there is evidence to suggest that the wide ribbon was on the hat when it left the factory.

So, all in all, a very interesting find -- and a great looking OR! Well done, Scott!

Cheers,
JtL

Interrupting the Wineguy hat analysis for a moment...

I just re-read Jimmy's post above and was thinking - I bought this hat because the sweat stamp combination was unique and both the liner and sweat logo had 'stars', indicating to me that it might be older than any bound-brim O.R.'s we had seen, PLUS - it had a wide black ribbon.

Regardless of when the ribbon was added, I like wide ribbons - In fact, I have an old O.R. at a hatter right now, having a wide ribbon ADDED to it. I am not a thin-ribbon guy (so beat me ), but I love the brim-width, crown-shape, and soft pliable felt of the 'Royal Deluxe' O.R. So, if the original owner of this hat had been wearing O.R.'s for years (with wide black ribbons), then when he got ready to order his newest one he was told they now come in thin ribbons, it would be very reasonable to think he would say, "okay, then just put a black ribbon on it and I'm good." Of course he could just as easily have shown up at the hat shop and found only thin ribbons, so asked that a black wide one be added.

Jtl, rlk, etc. - thanks for taking the time to give this hat some thought and help add to our Open Road education. It's esoteric, but fun!

We now return to the 'Wineguy's Hat Analysis/Discussion'.

Scott <== trying to be esoteric - not assoteric

 

[jimmy the lid]

Here is an example of the Royal Deluxe Stetson OR that I believe to date to the late 40's....Royal DeLuxe OR. I think this version would have followed hard on the heels of Scott's Royal Stetson DeLuxe...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[billysmom]

More importantly, by sharing how we arrive at our conclusions, it allows others to offer counter-examples that they may know of, and this helps us all to advance our collective knowledge in this area.

OK, I know that was more than a mouthful. Hopefully, though, it provides a useful model on how to approach dating a vintage Stetson OR. And, importantly, it may well be that someone out there has a lid that provides evidence that my thinking may be wrong on certain points -- but we'll only know that by comparing notes, as I have attempted to do here.

Cheers,
JtL

JtL -

A+ on this one!

This detailed analysis is why guys like you are so valuable to the Lounge. These bits of esoterica are exactly why I open almost every post of every thread. Keep "showing us your work", as in an exam bluebook. We newbies need to hone our critical thinking skills, not just memorize what may or may not be facts.

Sue

 

[CRH]

All true. On the other hand, given that this hat pre-dates the other thin-ribbon Open Roads we have examples of, and that the previous wide-ribbon Open Roads were all black ribbons like this, it's possible that it was a transition on the first bound-brims, as opposed to transitioning to a wide-ribbon tan-colored ribbon, or a wide-ribbon black with black edge binding.

Scott, how do we know for sure that the wide ribbons were all black?

Forgive me if I have missed something.

 

[jimmy the lid]

JtL -

A+ on this one!

This detailed analysis is why guys like you are so valuable to the Lounge. These bits of esoterica are exactly why I open almost every post of every thread. Keep "showing us your work", as in an exam bluebook. We newbies need to hone our critical thinking skills, not just memorize what may or may not be facts.

Sue

Thanks, Sue.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

OK, while we're generally on the topic of what the first modern thin-ribbon ORs looked like, I have previously expressed the theory that the thin-ribbon OR essentially evolved from the collaboration between Amon Carter, Tom Peters and Stetson to fashion a new Shady Oak lid for Amon Carter. See this post.

I have no real way of knowing whether or not this theory is, in fact, true. But, I will say that my Shady Oak OR is the only example I have ever seen of an OR with a taped sweat -- a feature that may suggest that the Shady Oak OR is one of the earliest versions of the OR, if not the earliest.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[rlk]

Here's a hat probably of similar vintage that seems to have the same sweatband(not the markings) with a stitched seam. Same bow(fabric and style) and celanese tag. This hat matches the OR except for a different style of thin ribbon.

 

[jonbuilder]

Here are some pictures of my Royal Deluxe Open Road. Reading through the previous posts, I guessing my OR is pre 1953 when the open road stamp was move to the side of the band and sometime after the late 40s when the RSD was change to RDS. Unfortunately the leather sweatband is failing and will need replacing soon now that this hat has made it into my daily rotation. The felt is in good condition

Open Road Stamp at the front ofthe sweat

]

the hat

 

[ScottF]

Scott, how do we know for sure that the wide ribbons were all black?

Forgive me if I have missed something.

I don't know that; however, the hat being discussed does have a black ribbon, as do the only other examples we have seen of wide-ribbons (two).

 

[ScottF]

Here is an example of the Royal Deluxe Stetson OR that I believe to date to the late 40's....Royal DeLuxe OR. I think this version would have followed hard on the heels of Scott's Royal Stetson DeLuxe...

Cheers,
JtL

How about dating other 'marketing designation' Open Roads? For example, I have a 3X with stars in the sweatband logo, but a 'last drop' liner. We've seen examples of these with the standard logo 'stars' liner. My thought is that the 'last drop' was used in the 2 7/8" brims, and the standard logo was used in the shorter brims. Thoughts?

 

[handlebar bart]

Could you guys help me date this Sovereign Open Road? Thanks

 

[jimmy the lid]

How about dating other 'marketing designation' Open Roads? For example, I have a 3X with stars in the sweatband logo, but a 'last drop' liner. We've seen examples of these with the standard logo 'stars' liner. My thought is that the 'last drop' was used in the 2 7/8" brims, and the standard logo was used in the shorter brims. Thoughts?

Not true. The Royal DeLuxe that I posted (and that you reference) is 2 7/8". Conversely, I have a couple of lids with 2 3/4" brims with the Last Drop liner. There is no correlation between the use of the Last Drop liner and brim width.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

Could you guys help me date this Sovereign Open Road? Thanks

Bart -- can you get us a close-up of the logo on the sweat?

Thanks,
JtL