The Bowler or Derby Hat

[alanfgag]

Alan, I will certainly accede to your far greater knowledge of hats. I see now that my label is different than Redfokker's as well.
P1200513 by Michael A2012, on Flickr

Thanks,
Michael

Michael, there are many wonderful threads here that attempt to wade through the quicksand of the Stetson timeline. I am a student as well. Sadly, many of these threads are pushed way back and hard to find unless you know they are there.

Your hat has the wider manufacturing label, a taped (rather than sewn) rear sweatband seam and (I am guessing) a round size sticker. Maybe even the larger scalloped size sticker. The sewn rear seam, keyhole paper size tag and narrow three pane manufacturing label are all later elements that support a guess of mid to late 1930s.

If you do a Google search "dating Stetson hats the Fedora Lounge" you will come up with some great reads on how to use size labels, sweatband imprints, liners and more to help estimate the era of your Stetson hats.

cheers,
Alan

 

[Michael A]

Michael, there are many wonderful threads here that attempt to wade through the quicksand of the Stetson timeline. I am a student as well. Sadly, many of these threads are pushed way back and hard to find unless you know they are there.

Your hat has the wider manufacturing label, a taped (rather than sewn) rear sweatband seam and (I am guessing) a round size sticker. Maybe even the larger scalloped size sticker. The sewn rear seam, keyhole paper size tag and narrow three pane manufacturing label are all later elements that support a guess of mid to late 1930s.

If you do a Google search "dating Stetson hats the Fedora Lounge" you will come up with some great reads on how to use size labels, sweatband imprints, liners and more to help estimate the era of your Stetson hats.

cheers,
Alan

Thanks for the addtional information and the search suggestion Alan.

Mine has the scalloped size sticker.
P1200510 by Michael A2012, on Flickr
A few more pictures
P1200511 by Michael A2012, on Flickr
P1200509 crop by Michael A2012, on Flickr
P1200507 crop by Michael A2012, on Flickr
P1200508 crop by Michael A2012, on Flickr

Would you care to venture a date for this one? I took a rather different route from hunting up Stetson lore. I tried tracking down the store. It was first joined by Max Mayer in the mid 1880s and the last year it appeared in the city directory was 1914. To me that proved more entertaining, in any case, as I found out that Max Mayer's father in law, was the first Jewish city mayor in the US, being elected in 1871 in Iowa City, and that Max went on to become the postmaster of the city and was instrumental in setting up our airport which was the first municipal airport west of the Mississippi. Amazing what one can learn by studying a hat. Ha ha.

Michael

 

[BobHufford]

So ... Iowa City is where all the good thrift stores are!

 

[alanfgag]

Thanks for sharing the additional photos!

The larger scalloped size sticker is earlier than the small round version. You have a three digit LOTXXXX stamp which is another sign of an early hat. I would date it somewhere in the first two decades of the 20th century. Your store research may pin it down further. Nice sleuthing!

Please add your photos to the LOTXXXX thread. There are only a couple of three digit stamps there. There are variants that are obviously old hats but show a high four digit stamp. It may be that the LOTXXXX numbers ran out somewhere in the early 1900s and rather than add a fifth digit, were restarted. I like that theory. ;^) It helps to support these numbers as a meaningful chronology marker for Stetson hat production through about 1941, when they disappear.

 

[Michael A]

So ... Iowa City is where all the good thrift stores are!

Road trip? Ha ha. I expect they will run out any day now. The Goodwill ones are in the basket (pallet sized) of Halloween stuff. Look there at your local as it seems to be a national marketing thing at GW.

Michael

 

[Michael A]

Thanks for sharing the additional photos!

The larger scalloped size sticker is earlier than the small round version. You have a three digit LOTXXXX stamp which is another sign of an early hat. I would date it somewhere in the first two decades of the 20th century. Your store research may pin it down further. Nice sleuthing!

Please add your photos to the LOTXXXX thread. There are only a couple of three digit stamps there. There are variants that are obviously old hats but show a high four digit stamp. It may be that the LOTXXXX numbers ran out somewhere in the early 1900s and rather than add a fifth digit, were restarted. I like that theory. ;^) It helps to support these numbers as a meaningful chronology marker for Stetson hat production through about 1941, when they disappear.

Thanks for the info Alan. I will add my pictures of the derby to the LOTXXXX thread.

Michael

 

[Redfokker]

Warner Todd Huston's hat writing is gleaned (with varying degrees of accuracy) from his various identities here over the years. This thread is the beginning of a discussion of the transition from the wide three paned manufacturing tag to the narrow version of the same to the narrow single field manufacturing tag that appears after 1940. Redfokker's derby with the narrow three field tag would date from the mid to late 1930s, IMO.

The size tag is also a clue. It is the keystone type, gold foil-ish type. It shows some green "patina". I was thinking mid thirties based on these clues.

 

[mayserwegener]

J.Hückel´s Söhne "Plume", Point 6, 135 grams, probably 1930s. This one came from Thüringen and is in super condition. Also a less common Box Bow.

 

[mmbarnes]

Dunlap vented derby sold at the St. Louis Clothing Co. in Sedalia, MO.

The tag is written in pencil, so the flash makes it difficult to read. But it states:

7 1/4
Lot 20152
Block 109 5 3/4
Finisher 22

The sweatband is reeded. Binding and ribbon are in very nice shape. Felt looks like it has lost some of its darkness. I wonder if that is from long term exposure to light. Also thought that it could be tobacco smoke stains, but there is no unpleasant odor to the hat.

Any thoughts on age? My understanding is that Dunlap was acquired by Knox in 1918. I'm thinking that this one might be from before or around that time.

Amendment: I looked under the sweatband again and found another tag in the front that I was not expecting. I edited my post to add that. Perhaps it provides some more food for thought.

Enjoy.

 

[mayserwegener]

Matt, Fantastic find! Very high quality. Is there a color difference behind the sweatband and inside vs. outside? The background behind the paper label looks black but it could be from the flash.

 

[alanfgag]

Great derby!

 

[mmbarnes]

Matt, Fantastic find! Very high quality. Is there a color difference behind the sweatband and inside vs. outside? The background behind the paper label looks black but it could be from the flash.

Great derby!

Thanks Steve and Alan.

The felt is extremely smooth. The sensation when running my fingers over it is almost like brushing across peach fuzz.

As for the color... the felt is uniformly colored inside, outside and behind the sweatband. I took it out into the sunlight just to be certain. What does that suggest?

It makes me think that storage in the light isn't the issue (the inside of the hat wouldn't have been exposed to the same lighting conditions as the outside, right?).

I guess it could be from tobacco smoke, but the lack of smell surprises me. I came across a wonderful old Mallory cravenette derby a number of years ago that smelled like an ash tray from smoke exposure. After several naptha baths, the smell would still kind of leak out a bit when it got rained upon. There is no hint of that here.

My other thought is that the dye used on the felt has just naturally degraded or oxidized over the years. Of course, that's just guessing on my part. I have no understanding of the chemistry involved in felt dying and the effects of time and air exposure thereon.

Your thoughts?

Also, speaking of that Mallory derby... know anyone who binds derby brims and also replaces ribbons (preferably with vintage materials)? That Mallory is one of my favorite derbies of all time but I don't wear it now since the binding and ribbon have seen much better days. I'd love to get those issues taken care of.

Take it easy and enjoy.

Matt

 

[mayserwegener]

Matt, I guess it could be dye / fur related issue. I don't see any color designation on the paper labels.

I am not aware of anyone that will replace the binding on a antique Stiff Felt. The ribbon type is important too if you want to match the original as much as possible. Here is a thread where a poster did it himself using Mokuba Silk ribbon. It took him a long time and effort but the results were good (but had to stitch through the brim so not like the original).

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/bowler-edge-trim-replacement.64813/

 

[mmbarnes]

Matt, I guess it could be dye / fur related issue. I don't see any color designation on the paper labels.

I am not aware of anyone that will replace the binding on a antique Stiff Felt. The ribbon type is important too if you want to match the original as much as possible. Here is a thread where a poster did it himself using Mokuba Silk ribbon. It took him a long time and effort but the results were good (but had to stitch through the brim so not like the original).

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/bowler-edge-trim-replacement.64813/

Thanks Steve.

In any event, the color issue is just one of the things that gives the hat some of its character.

Thanks for the link to the thread. I'll take a close look at it. I'll have to find myself a beater derby to practice on if I can get the nerve up to give it a try.

As always...

Matt

 

[Redfokker]

Dunlap vented derby sold at the St. Louis Clothing Co. in Sedalia, MO.

The tag is written in pencil, so the flash makes it difficult to read. But it states:

7 1/4
Lot 20152
Block 109 5 3/4
Finisher 22

The sweatband is reeded. Binding and ribbon are in very nice shape. Felt looks like it has lost some of its darkness. I wonder if that is from long term exposure to light. Also thought that it could be tobacco smoke stains, but there is no unpleasant odor to the hat.

Any thoughts on age? My understanding is that Dunlap was acquired by Knox in 1918. I'm thinking that this one might be from before or around that time.

Amendment: I looked under the sweatband again and found another tag in the front that I was not expecting. I edited my post to add that. Perhaps it provides some more food for thought.

Enjoy.

That is a super derby! The crown height is really super! It is my size, how does it fit? I've got a Christie's that seems to have shrunk about a half size over the years.

 

[lbgradwell]

I posted this new acquisition in the Portis thread a few days ago, but Redfokker suggested I also try here...

I found this older Portis bowler/derby on the local kijiji in 7-5/8. It's rare to find any hats in 7-5/8, much less a vintage...

Sadly, the liner is missing, but I am still happy to have it!

I'm hoping an experienced eye can help date the thing.

Do any of the markings suggest a certain period? How long was "Typically American" used? What about the size sticker (as opposed to tag)?

Unfortunately, there are no other markings on the hat and the re-order tag - if there was one - is now gone...

 

[mmbarnes]

That is a super derby! The crown height is really super! It is my size, how does it fit? I've got a Christie's that seems to have shrunk about a half size over the years.

Thanks Red. Yeah... I'm lucky to have stumbled across this one. While I like pretty much any derby, the high crowned ones are especially neat.

Fit seems to be about a perfect 7 1/4.

Take it easy.

 

[Joshbru3]

I

I'm hoping an experienced eye can help date the thing.

Do any of the markings suggest a certain period? How long was "Typically American" used? What about the size sticker (as opposed to tag)?

Unfortunately, there are no other markings on the hat and the re-order tag - if there was one - is now gone...

Well, dating a hat based on trimmings can be difficult, but there are a couple clues that give the age away in my opinion.

First, the rear sweatband seam is sewn verses being taped. Most.....and keep in mind there are always exceptions to this rule.....but most sewn rear sweatband seams started showing up in the mid-20 to the early 30's.

Second, the sweatband does not have a folded edge, but instead employs a rolled edge. This is a style of sweatband, but the early derbies that I own (pre-1920) mostly employ a folded edge. Yet again, there are lots of exceptions to this rule, but coupled with the sewn rear seam makes me think this hat is mid 20's - early 30's.

Third, that Portis Logo has been seen on hats from the 30's and 40's made by Portis. I am unsure when it started being used in production, but all the hats I have seen that use that specific logo usually date to the 30's and 40's.

Lastly, the only thing throwing me off is that size sticker. That size sticker looks like something that many hat companies would have used in the early 1900's, but since many times size stickers were often removed, its hard to pinpoint when companies started and stopped using certain styles of stickers. Especially Portis.

All of that being said, I believe you have a late 20's - early 30's Derby.

Great hat!

 

[lbgradwell]

All of that being said, I believe you have a late 20's - early 30's Derby.

Josh, thank you! That's exactly the type of knowledge for which I'd hoped!

I must say that is earlier than I had been expecting.

The only information the seller was able to provide was that the hat had belonged to his ex-girlfriend's grandfather. The fellow appeared to me to be around 25yo, so I assumed her grandfather to be ~80yo (if still living). That would point to the 1950s at the earliest.

But there's nothing to say that the hat was bought new by/for grandpa or that the seller's information was correct...

 

[Joshbru3]

Josh, thank you! That's exactly the type of knowledge for which I'd hoped!

I must say that is earlier than I had been expecting.

The only information the seller was able to provide was that the hat had belonged to his ex-girlfriend's grandfather. The fellow appeared to me to be around 25yo, so I assumed her grandfather to be ~80yo (if still living). That would point to the 1950s at the earliest.

But there's nothing to say that the hat was bought new by/for grandpa or that the seller's information was correct...

No problem!

I'm thinking its earlier than the 50's. To be honest, a 50's derby and a 30's derby look pretty similar in style and finish. If you look at the "fraying" on the edge of the bow, that style (with the exception of Cavanagh and some custom hatters) had pretty much disappeared by the mid - late 30's.