The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[Rabbit]

Thank you Steve, Che, Randall, and Manfred!

+1

Where did you find that beauty?

It was listed twice on U.S. ebay with no bids in the first run. It was listed as BIN plus auction both times. When I realized what a gem it was, I went for the $200 BIN which is way more than what I paid for any other of my six Homburg hats, but I'm glad I did it. My search for the perfect gray Homburg is over, regarding quality, style and fit, everything.

Rabbit, great find and Borsalino.Congrats! Looks, we have a pair of twins![/IMG]

Manfred, sure looks like twins to me. You found yours on ebay Germany, right? The size 7 Borsalino made for the German market, if I remember correctly. You certainly are blessed with a handy head size, sir!

 

[Landman]

Rabbit,

That is a beautiful Homburg. I love the inside liners and sweatbands on those old Borsalinos.

 

[Rabbit]

Thank you, Landman.
For clarification, my guess would be that this Homburg is not that old. It has an onion skin layer behind the sweat (as you can see in the pic below) and the Borsalino color+ribbon/model/size sticker without the word Borsalino written on it, so I'd estimate it to be from the early fifties most likely, or the late forties at the earliest.
The typical two inch sweat and the oilskin-covered liner sure is a treat.

Pic below with flash.

 

[Chepstow]

Thank you Steve, Che, Randall, and Manfred!

Manfred, sure looks like twins to me. You found yours on ebay Germany, right? The size 7 Borsalino made for the German market, if I remember correctly. You certainly are blessed with a handy head size, sir!

Rabbit, indeed! Your memories are correct! What is your size?

 

[Rabbit]

Rabbit, indeed! Your memories are correct! What is your size?

I'm 57.3 or 57.4cm egg oval. With vintage fedoras, a broken-in 7 1/8 works fine. Most of my well-fitting vintage fedoras (I gave away the ones that didn't fit) are 7 1/8, some are 7 1/4. With the stiffer-brimmed Homburgs, I find 7 1/4 to be a much better fit. My Stetson Standard Quality Derby from the 30s is a 7 1/4 LO, and my Stetson Select Quality Boater is 7 1/4, too.
The wood conform bandblocks from Art are very helpful in molding vintage hats that fit o.k. to start with into hats that fit perfectly.

 

[mayserwegener]

Borsalino had amazing consistency. They made really high quality hats into the very early 80s (up until the family sold the business and the old factory was closed).

 

[Rabbit]

Borsalino had amazing consistency. They made really high quality hats into the very early 80s (up until the family sold the business and the old factory was closed).

I agree. To avoid misunderstandings for the other readers, I would say that in addition to the high-quality hats, there were so-so quality Borsalini out there even as early as the 60s (at least I've handled two non-stingies from the late 50s or the 60s, most likely, with felt that had a slightly lower-grade feel to it). In other words, Borsalino didn't always automatically mean high quality, but they sure had the potential to do great hats up until the old factory closed its doors.
Here are the liner shots of the two aforementioned hats. The first one is reeded, the other unreeded.

They're still decent hats, of course, but the felt quality is not in the same league as, for instance, the unreeded Borsalini of the late 40s/early50s.

Their current production is not up to the standard any more. Completely different game, in my opinion. Still, their current model "Film" is an o.k. quality hat, I've handled it. Quite rough finish, though, on a rabbit felt, inferior materials for the price, and considerably less than perfect ribbon work.
Here's what the finish, the sweatband stitching and the ribbon work on a Borsalino Film made in 2011 looks like. Note that the ribbon doesn't cover the stitchings of the crown/brim break.
In favor of Borsalino's current work I have to say that their blocking and flanging is still top notch. The felt is also capable of holding dry creases.

Would you agree on the dating of the above-posted Homburg?

 

[mayserwegener]

I would guess mid to late 50s on the Homburg. Maybe even very early 60s.

I would have to touch the felt to understand exactly what you are talking about. I know Borsalino sometimes used thicker less pliable felt for Echter Borsalino models sold in Germany. The felt quality was still very high but just a different feel aimed for a specific market or style.

 

[Rabbit]

I would guess mid to late 50s on the Homburg. Maybe even very early 60s.

I would have to touch the felt to understand exactly what you are talking about. I know Borsalino sometimes used thicker less pliable felt for Echter Borsalino models sold in Germany. The felt quality was still very high but just a different feel aimed for a specific market or style.

Thanks for the info.

It's difficult to convey in words the small differences in felts. I see your point about different markets, and it's quite possible that I'm wrong in labeling the felts in question as being of lesser quality.
The above posted reeded Borsalino appears to be made of a less dense felt with a rougher finish.
The unreeded one has a dense, fairly thin felt not very different from the high-quality ones that I own (pics below, if it helps any). What's different about this one is that the felt itself feels less pliable and, well, a little less expensive, if that's the proper word for it.

Below:

Borsalino "Misto" Gorasgu - Carrara c. buio

Borsalino "Misto" Gorasgu - M. Cielo c. cobalto

Borsalino Gorasgu - Palladio c. Nero

Borsalino Natalsca - Bismuto c. Nero

And the liners of the last three of them (the two Misto have basically the same construction):

 

[carouselvic]

The word is nero, it means black.

 

[Rabbit]

The word is nero, it means black.

True. I knew it meant black. Looking at the terrible print on those Borsalino stickers, I tought it read nera, being the feminine version of nero. But then, that wouldn't make sense as the other ribbon colors are all masculine. :eusa_doh:

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks for the info.

It's difficult to convey in words the small differences in felts. I see your point about different markets, and it's quite possible that I'm wrong in labeling the felts in question as being of lesser quality.
The above posted reeded Borsalino appears to be made of a less dense felt with a rougher finish.
The unreeded one has a dense, fairly thin felt not very different from the high-quality ones that I own (pics below, if it helps any). What's different about this one is that the felt itself feels less pliable and, well, a little less expensive, if that's the proper word for it.

It could be of a lower grade but pliability is not a factor of quality. The density of the felt could be dependent on the finish and fur content. Borsalino price lists of the same time period have Velour models at the highest price point (above Beaver models).

 

[Bird Lives]

Hey guys....I purchased a Borsalino yesterday at a vintage shop here in Istanbul....I'll have to put up photos later....Right now its impossible...I would like to discribe it though and maybe someone could help me date it...

I believe its a Navy Blue San Remo, as it has a 5 cm brim...and 5 1/2" open crown, with a little taper...

The lining has the yellowed with age clear oval oil skin material covering the navy blue lining at the top of the crown over the logo....and theres the shiney navy blue lining stitched under the leather sweat band up to the crown....The hat is an open crown, with a little taper...The felt is extremly dense and light and very easy to dry shape...and it holds whatever creases you put there till you press them out...

The logo is gold on Blue and says:Qualita Superiore....then the Borsalino crest( the crest itself looks like Rabbits above;#2472;without the English writting underneath)), ...then, Alessandria...(Italia)Marca Depositata.
Thats it...nothing else on the lining...

There is no English writting anywhere...The serial Number card under the lining says:T5588 83467 60CM Mirtello

The felt is Dark Blue and the finish is very soft...When creased it's shape and diminsions are very much like a new San Remo..
Crown with center dent 4 3/4" Brim: 2"

I'm hopeing this is a vintage where I can where it year round in all weather without worrying about it self-destructing.....
What do you guys think ??....I apoligize for no pics but I'll put some up as soon as possible....This one is quite the looker....It's marked a size 60 CM and thats exactly my size...so apperently it hasn't shruck one bit...It fits perfect !

 

[alanfgag]

I would guess mid to late 50s on the Homburg. Maybe even very early 60s.

I think that's a good guess. I have its twin in a darker color. Not sure what color because the label is unreadable. Great hat.

 

[Rabbit]

I think that's a good guess. I have its twin in a darker color. Not sure what color because the label is unreadable. Great hat.

Thanks for the cross-reference, Alan! I had forgotten about the twin.

 

[Bird Lives]

I think that's a good guess. I have its twin in a darker color. Not sure what color because the label is unreadable. Great hat.

Wow...Alan your twin is beautiful.....Your liner and clear oval window of 'oil skin' ? looks exactly like mine, which I posted about, #2475, right before your post...although my logo is different....Mine says: Qualita Superiore....then the Borsalino crest( the crest itself looks like Rabbits above;#2472; Gold on Blue...then, Alessandria...(Italia)Marca Depositata.
Thats it...nothing else on the lining...

Has anyone determined when they stopped making that long oval window over the logo in the crown? That could help with dating, I would think...Unless they still do... My whole lining is exactly like yours only instead of white its Navy Blue...or as the serial no. card says 'Mirtello' meaning 'Blueberry'...

 

[mayserwegener]

Wow...Alan your twin is beautiful.....Your liner and clear oval window of 'oil skin' ? looks exactly like mine, which I posted about, #2475, right before your post...although my logo is different....Mine says: Qualita Superiore....then the Borsalino crest( the crest itself looks like Rabbits above;#2472; Gold on Blue...then, Alessandria...(Italia)Marca Depositata.
Thats it...nothing else on the lining...

Has anyone determined when they stopped making that long oval window over the logo in the crown? That could help with dating, I would think...Unless they still do... My whole lining is exactly like yours only instead of white its Navy Blue...or as the serial no. card says 'Mirtello' meaning 'Blueberry'...

You see that into the 60s. My guess on Alan's hat would be mid to late 50s. If the paper label behind the sweatband doesn't have the Borsalino label than yours probably fits into the same time frame. Posting photos of the hat plus the paper label would help. Also it is tough to date post 50s Borsalinos because the parts they used remained fairly consistent up to the closing of the old factory in the early 1980s.

 

[Bird Lives]

You see that into the 60s. My guess on Alan's hat would be mid to late 50s. If the paper label behind the sweatband doesn't have the Borsalino label than yours probably fits into the same time frame. Posting photos of the hat plus the paper label would help. Also it is tough to date post 50s Borsalinos because the parts they used remained fairly consistent up to the closing of the old factory in the early 1980s.

It does have the yellowed with age oil skin sewn in lining that looks like Alan's...And the piece of paper behind the sweatband doesn't have the name Borsalino...It only says:T5588 83467 Mirtello cm60
and thats it...no other writting, or logos at all....So what do you think?

If I were guessing by the numbers, I would think either 55 or 83...But then this is a European hat. There's not one word of English anywhere and no mention of Pat. Nos...and I don't know if the serial no. business works with Euro hats...

Also the sweat band is either very very dark brown or black and 2" wide and very thin and soft...and taped in back where it comes together....

The fur felt is the densest that I've handled....I will post pics as soon as possible...but currently my cameras are all down and major family health issues have arisen...Half of my posting is a way of relaxing in the hospital...It is nice to think that this hat is vintage enough that I can freely wear it every day without fear of inclimate weather....

I sure appreciate your help and ideas...and pointing out what I should look for....Thanks

 

[mayserwegener]

If it doesn't have Borsalino on the paper label its probably mid 50s to very early 60s.

 

[Bird Lives]

If it doesn't have Borsalino on the paper label its probably mid 50s to very early 60s.

Thanks mayserwegener for getting back to me....Your imput is always appreciated....