Stetson Vita-felt

[rlk]

I tend to go along with Brad on the possibility of the conjecture(a small percentage of casein), but as with Lefty I think you have only demonstrated general chronological coincidence. Like JtL I see Vita-Felt as Stetson's attempt to exploit the absence of lightweight European Felts-the "Alessandria" type being the most well known. It resembles this type successfully and seems superior to the standard "Royal" of the time but with slightly longer fibers(by no means long-hair however). Only a scientific analysis will give us conclusive evidence, unless there is a document from Stetson specifying the formulation. The name Vita-Felt Process may be nothing more than marketing hype and not a true new "process" at all. Maybe they used Kitten Fur like Byer-Rolnick

More on Aralac:

Jan. '42 hinting future introduction:

Major campaign in 1944:

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Do you have a patent or any hard evidence at all that says the vita-felt process involved casein?

Hello!!??? Hat Corporation of America got the patent on the process. Stetson didn't get a patent because HCoA already had one. Stetson licensed the patent from HCoA

Also, Banjomerlin, do you own or have you handled any vita-felts?

Why yes indeed I have owned and handled several vita-felts. Looked at them under a microscope too. At the time I thought I was looking at wool fibers mixed with the rabbit fur but they were smooth, not scaly so were not wool.

I believe the casein hats made by Stetson in the WWII period were marketed as plasti-felt, or something along those lines, I'm trying to find the pictures. Those may have been some other weird experimental short lived mixture though. Not very many survive.

WWII ended long before Stetson introduced the Plastic Felt hats in 1946.

Here's another thread on casein felt. It states that "they lose strength when wet and must be handled gently. They cannot be kept damp for any length of time due to quick mildewing." and that "Casein fibers cannot be distinguished from wool fibers by chemical or burning tests, only by microscope".

Have you read the patent? Obviously not. The patent specifies the processing for the casein fibers that mitigate those characteristics of casein.

I've owned literally hundreds of vintage fedoras and handled many more, so I trust my ability to tell the difference between wool and fur felt.

How many of those hats did you put under a microscope? Exactly what percentage of each type of fur was in each hat. Or do you think fur is fur is fur?

The several vita felts I have owned are high quality hats and do not appear to be cheap wool blends. I have had to wet, steam and reshape them and did not experience any of the issues mentioned in the article. Vita-felt hats are relatively common in terms of Stetsons from that era. With as many good examples as there are out there and the shortcomings of the material as listed in period materials (bad smell, mildewing, strength loss, wool-like quality) I just can't imagine they would have survived as well as they have and in the quantity they have. And vita-felt hats weren't cheap hats as you would expect with something that was a shortage-avoiding sub par material.

Again, READ THE PATENT! YOU are the one who seems to think hats made with that process would be "cheap hats" and feel like wool blends. The patented process makes a hat that meets the standards of an all-felt hat in every way. The WHOLE POINT of the patent is to make a hat that is NOT inferior!

 

[Neophyte]

:arated:

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Again, all that you've posted only shows that vita felt existed during the same time as casein felt. Aside from merely noting that the two are similar in time, you've taken a few huge leaps of logic in your conclusion, by failing to show any proof of:

whether or not Stetson was using casein felt at all (as proposed use could easily lead to a suit for infringement - manufacture of hats and sale of hats is not the same),

and, if so, whether it was used by Stetson in men's hats (as, again, Stetson has also been a leader in the manufacture of women's felt hats, which are almost always wool),

and, if so whether it was used in vita-felt hats.

Again, your conclusion is based upon two events, happening in relative close proximity in time.

I'm hungry after responding to your post. Your post discusses vita-felt. Therefore, vita-felt has made me hungry.


Further, you've failed to respond to Dinerman's post at all. It's clear that you've handled very few hats, that you've never handled vita-felt, and that you've never read a post that indicates that vita-felt is delicate or mildews easily. Even allowing, for now, your belief that the bad milk smell might dissipate over time, you've addressed none of this. Anyone who has handled a number of wool felt hats and a number of fur felt hats can immediately tell the difference in almost every case. Having handled neither, having posted no accounts relating anyone's experiences that would indicate that their vita-felt acts as casein felt is said to act, and lacking anything other than time on your side, your demands for proof and for others to support your unsubstantiated conclusions will not be met. I'm always willing to change my mind, but I'm not going to do so based the kind of conjecture that so clearly convinces you.

OK, I've responded ot dinerman's post.

Now would you please go to the trouble of reading the patent so you have some slight idea of what I'm talking about? The patent is not about using casein fiber with WOOL in making women's hats. It is about using casein fiber with FUR.

All of your women's hats, low quality, plastic felt arguments are nothing but uninformed nonsense.

 

[wgiceman]

...... and to think I let a couple of vita-felt stetsons pass me by because I thought they were wool blends ........

 

[Neophyte]

...... and to think I let a couple of vita-felt stetsons pass me by because I thought they were wool blends ........

lol

 

[Lefty]

OK, I've trolled all over dinerman's post.

My post is uninformed nonsense.

Fixed that for you

 

[donnc]

Plus when damp, this fabric smelled like sour milk, causing many consumer complaints!

Does this sound to anyone else like the power of suggestion?

Casein is not milk. It's used in paints, coated paper stock. I doubt an article made of casein is going to smell like milk, unless someone tells you it's made of milk.

Does rayon smell like pine trees?

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Fixed that for you

I just KNEW you would stoop to something childish.

Typical behavior of those who are wrong and aren't man enought to admit it.

 

[RobFedoraField]

...

First off, I want to say I'm no expert, I just play one on TV.

on page 3 there's a link to another thread

What is Vita Felt???

Where they've held a similar discussion w/o the banter. Brad Bowers thought it might be a "blend of some type" and Harp Player Gene said that he has had two of these and they have not held up as well other vintage hats of the era.

with that said and all the banter about the "smell" no one has brought up the point of how much casen was used? was it 5%, 10%, or 75%? I'm sure that the different ratios would produce different effects.

I don't think it's that far fetched to think that any hat company could use a "filler" product while making their felts. especially if it saved money or scarce resources. I don't think I've ever seen on a hat that has said 100% animal fur only" Heck McDonald's chicken nuggets are only 35% chicken

I'm not saying that I can prove that hat manufactures used it, I'm just saying that there is enough to say that they might have used it. Between timing and how long they sold that the vita-felt hats, they may have tried it, but didn't feel it was a long term solution and after the war was over I think more foreign imports would be available.

but that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Lefty]

I'm not saying that I can prove that hat manufactures used it, I'm just saying that there is enough to say that they might have used it. Between timing and how long they sold that the vita-felt hats, they may have tried it, but didn't feel it was a long term solution and after the war was over I think more foreign imports would be available.

I agree that it's a possibility, and think that everyone who has responded to Banjo's posts would agree with you. The responses, however, are to this statement of fact:

Vita-felt process #1 (ca. 1940's) mixed casein and rabbit fur. This version
of Vita-felt was not used by Stetson for very long.

Had that conclusion been prefaced by "It is possible that", I don't think there would be much argument beyond some people posting their opinions on the likelihood one way or another, based on surrounding factors (time of casein, use of vita felt, quality designation of the hats, price of the hats, etc.)

 

[jimmy the lid]

I agree that it's a possibility, and think that everyone who has responded to Banjo's posts would agree with you. The responses, however, are to this statement of fact:



Had that conclusion been prefaced by "It is possible that", I don't think there would be much argument beyond some people posting their opinions on the likelihood one way or another, based on surrounding factors (time of casein, use of vita felt, quality designation of the hats, price of the hats, etc.)

Couldn't agree more. :eusa_clap

Thanks for stepping up in a manly fashion to address this...lol


Cheers,
JtL

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Had that conclusion been prefaced by "It is possible that", I don't think there would be much argument beyond some people posting their opinions on the likelihood one way or another, based on surrounding factors (time of casein, use of vita felt, quality designation of the hats, price of the hats, etc.)

Conclusions do not start with "It is possible that", speculation does.

"It was all marketing" is speculation without evidence of any kind.

I don't know why you are so hung up on price. Stetson was selling the vita-felts as something new and desirable. A low price does not make the consumer think "desirable" it makes him think "cheap." The $10 price tag (they also had vita-felt hats for $8.50) was not particularly high for Stetson but it wasn't low either.

BTW, for those wondering about the possible smell and weakness of the casein fiber, the patent specifically explains the process of "Thermalizing" which subjects the casein fibers to treatment in a formaldehyde bath. This treatment served to improve the wet strength of the fibers as well as hardening them and making them stand up well to hot water and steam. This process was not typically done in the clothing industry since sweaters and such are rarely subjected to hot water and steam. The process of making casein-formaldehye plastic was patented in Germany in 1899.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

So ask yourself these questions:

If Stetson was only using casein to blend with wool in the making of women's hats, why would ARALAC, Inc. seek to have patent #2,322,254 invalidated due to a negative impact on ARALAC's ability to sell its casein fiber to hat manufacturers? Patent #2,322,254 ONLY covered the blending of fur and casein and would have had no impact on the use of casein blended with wool.

If Stetson was not using felt made of a fur/casein blend then why would they have obtained a license to do so from HCoA?

What other new felting processes did Stetson announce during the early 1940s?

Why didn't Stetson make vita-felt process hats after WW2?

 

[Andykev]

NOW LET'S BE POLITE

Gentlemen!

I find the text of your posts informative, but the "TONE" is quite spirited. Please relax your sensitivities, none of this is personal; take the conversation as investigative and intellectual discussion.

I will close this thread and delete posts from some of you who have gently crossed the line, please be civil. This is a great topic.

And my take from reading some of the links is that the "Vita felt" process appears to be where lower quality (hence less expensive) fur was improved by the introduction of casein, which is an extender to improve the felting PROCESS. As any hatter will tell you, the process of felting (blending) various furs determine the quality of the hat body.

"Among the characteristics that have established casein fiber in the textile field are its property of felting in mixture with hair and wool whereby it acts as an extender of these more expensive fibers; the soft feel imparted to fabrics that contain it; and the fineness of fiber possible finer than the finest wool."

 

[rlk]

Why did they argue this case in 1946 when the use of the product for this application(and more generally) was coming to a conclusion?

Anyone with subscriptions or willing to pay?
Note Dates

ads
Earliest seem to have been Feb. 1941(ppv)

Latest ad found so far in the 1940's

1967 Process seems to involve a DuPont Coating.

Vita-Felt 3(or4?)

 

[danofarlington]

Gentlemen!

I find the text of your posts informative, but the "TONE" is quite spirited. Please relax your sensitivities, none of this is personal; take the conversation as investigative and intellectual discussion.

I will close this thread and delete posts from some of you who have gently crossed the line, please be civil. This is a great topic.

And my take from reading some of the links is that the "Vita felt" process appears to be where lower quality (hence less expensive) was improved by the introduction of casein, which is an extender to improve the felting PROCESS. As any hatter will tell you, the process of felting (blending) various furs determine the quality of the hat body.

"Among the characteristics that have established casein fiber in the textile field are its property of felting in mixture with hair and wool whereby it acts as an extender of these more expensive fibers; the soft feel imparted to fabrics that contain it; and the fineness of fiber possible finer than the finest wool."

Why is it that e-mail communications turn heavy sometimes and people get themselves into a snit? I do this myself sometimes. Since e-mailing a lot in the last 15 years, I find that I have to pull back in what I write so that it won't be argumentative, insulting, or challenging. I don't know why e-mails are like that. You would probably have a more civil conversation in person. I blame the e-mail medium as much as anything. Oh, well. Vita-Felt awaits its Lincoln, the great interpreter.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Anyone with subscriptions or willing to pay?
Note Dates

I bought the first two -- will post later for educational purposes only.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I also bought the articles, as well as some early ads, the earliest being September 1940.

My latest thoughts on the matter:

HCA Casein patent 2,322,254:
Filed May 4, 1940, granted June 22, 1943.

Vita-Felt trademark:
First used in commerce July 30, 1940.
Announced in article August 6, 1940.
I can find no associated patent for a process that results in anything resembling the Vita-Felt ads other than a Stetson hat felting and molding process, patent #2,404, 634, but it was filed July 10, 1943, THREE years after the process. Other ads from the period call it either an "exclusive process" or a "secret" process. I also searched non-Stetson patents for felt hats from 1938-1944, and there is nothing resembling Vita-Felt.

So, the Vita-Felt process remains a mystery, with no documentary evidence as to exactly what it might entail.

Note: This leaves the casein felt in the running as a possibility, but it does not confirm the supposition.

One would have to access federal court records to see what was involved in the initial suit of HCA v. Stetson. Since the suit was dropped, there is no mention of it in online records, but the original filings should mention whether or not Stetson was marketing a casein felt as Vita-Felt.

The following is suppposition based upon the evidence:
If Stetson developed a special process for felting and/or finishing hats, why did they not file a patent for protection? Possibly because HCA beat them to the punch. By keeping it a secret, they could perhaps avoid an infringement suit (which happened anyway).

References to Vita-Felt ads in the Google News archives are gone by 1945, until the next use of the trademark over a decade later.

Circumstantial evidence is strong that Vita-Felt could be casein felt (even though the attributes of the HCA patented felt don't quite match those attributes touted by Stetson in the ads, though they could be misleading on purpose), but it is still all circumstantial at the moment. There is no smoking gun as of yet. It's likely out there, we just haven't looked in the right places yet. Without that smoking-gun fact, historians can only draw inferences and make conjectures here. That's the way trained historians work.

I'm not 100% convinced, because so many claims by hat manufacturers are misleading, but there is a strong possiblity that Vita-Felt and casein are one and the same.

Brad

 

[wgiceman]

Why did they argue this case in 1946 when the use of the product for this application(and more generally) was coming to a conclusion?

Anyone with subscriptions or willing to pay?
Note Dates

ads
Earliest seem to have been Feb. 1941(ppv)

Latest ad found so far in the 1940's

1967 Process seems to involve a DuPont Coating.

Vita-Felt 3(or4?)

So, I see that vita-felt is 100% pure wool after all. I was right in my initial thought. That is the main thing I take away from this whole discussion. The rest, to me, is great historical information.