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Stetson Vita-felt
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BanjoMerlin
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I found some answers...
In ARALAC, INC. v. HAT CORPORATION OF AMERICA, 166 F.2d 286 (3rd Cir. 1948)
ARALAC, Inc was a manufacturer of casein fiber and was trying to get two of Hat Corporation
of America's patents (2,322,254 and 2,322,255) invalidated. These two patents were for a process
of making felt with man-made fibers (2,322,254 with milk casein and 2,322,255 with soy prolon).
In the findings of the court was this (argued on 12/14/1946):
"The complaint avers that plaintiff (ARALAC) for years [note: not for very
many years since the Aralac fiber was only developed just before WWII]
manufactured and sold casein fiber to fur felt hat manufacturers and to
others. Hat Manufacturers use casein fiber as a substitute for a
portion of animal fur in the mixture subjected to the felting
process to make material for fur felt hat bodies and hats.
One of plaintiff's largest customers, John B. Stetson Co., was
charged with infringement. After commencing a declaratory
judgment to question defendant's (HCOA) patent, Stetson discontinued its
suit. Later Stetson, and one other customer, obtained a license
from defendant (HCOA) to use the process covered by its patent."
Both of HCOA's patents were granted on 6/22/1943 -
AFTER Stetson's VITA-FELT trademark was Registered on 12/24/1940.
We know that Stetson was advertising "Vita-Felt" before 6/22/1943.
I'm betting Stetson's first (1940s) Vita-felt process was enough like
HCOA patent #2,322,254 that it would have been found to be an
infringement. I infer this because Stetson started action to invalidate HCOA's
patent but then dropped that action and instead obtained a license to use
the patented process. The license was probably offered at a cost much less
than the legal action would have been.
Other info I found:
"One such fiber was Aralac, developed just before the war by the
American Research Associates and the National Dairy Association.
First manufactured in Italy as Lanital [lana = wool + ital = Italy], later
in this country as Aralac. Name was derived from ARA = American
Research Associates and lac, Latin for milk. Fiber was made from
casein of skim milk similar to wool in chemical nature. It was blended
with rabbit fur in making felt hats and also with wool, mohair, rayon
and cotton in varying proportions for fabrics. Although clothing in this
fiber was available as late as 1947 the impact of manmade fibers
following the war eventually caused the demise of this fiber which
could not compete with low price of new synthetics. Plus when damp,
this fabric smelled like sour milk, causing many consumer complaints!"
I have one of the 1960s "VITA-FELT" (NOT "Vita-Felt process) hats
that is marked "3X Beaver" but doesn't feel like the other 3X Beaver
Stetson hats I have from that period.
So:
Vita-felt process #1 (ca. 1940's) mixed casein and rabbit fur. This version
of Vita-felt was not used by Stetson for very long.
Vita-Felt #2 (ca 1967) may be nothing more than marketing or
may incorporate some synthetic fiber - tough to tell but my hat
does NOT smell like sour milk when it is wet.
Vita-felt process #3 (current) uses 100% wool and most likely incorporates
some sort of new process not related to the 1940's process.
In ARALAC, INC. v. HAT CORPORATION OF AMERICA, 166 F.2d 286 (3rd Cir. 1948)
ARALAC, Inc was a manufacturer of casein fiber and was trying to get two of Hat Corporation
of America's patents (2,322,254 and 2,322,255) invalidated. These two patents were for a process
of making felt with man-made fibers (2,322,254 with milk casein and 2,322,255 with soy prolon).
In the findings of the court was this (argued on 12/14/1946):
"The complaint avers that plaintiff (ARALAC) for years [note: not for very
many years since the Aralac fiber was only developed just before WWII]
manufactured and sold casein fiber to fur felt hat manufacturers and to
others. Hat Manufacturers use casein fiber as a substitute for a
portion of animal fur in the mixture subjected to the felting
process to make material for fur felt hat bodies and hats.
One of plaintiff's largest customers, John B. Stetson Co., was
charged with infringement. After commencing a declaratory
judgment to question defendant's (HCOA) patent, Stetson discontinued its
suit. Later Stetson, and one other customer, obtained a license
from defendant (HCOA) to use the process covered by its patent."
Both of HCOA's patents were granted on 6/22/1943 -
AFTER Stetson's VITA-FELT trademark was Registered on 12/24/1940.
We know that Stetson was advertising "Vita-Felt" before 6/22/1943.
I'm betting Stetson's first (1940s) Vita-felt process was enough like
HCOA patent #2,322,254 that it would have been found to be an
infringement. I infer this because Stetson started action to invalidate HCOA's
patent but then dropped that action and instead obtained a license to use
the patented process. The license was probably offered at a cost much less
than the legal action would have been.
Other info I found:
"One such fiber was Aralac, developed just before the war by the
American Research Associates and the National Dairy Association.
First manufactured in Italy as Lanital [lana = wool + ital = Italy], later
in this country as Aralac. Name was derived from ARA = American
Research Associates and lac, Latin for milk. Fiber was made from
casein of skim milk similar to wool in chemical nature. It was blended
with rabbit fur in making felt hats and also with wool, mohair, rayon
and cotton in varying proportions for fabrics. Although clothing in this
fiber was available as late as 1947 the impact of manmade fibers
following the war eventually caused the demise of this fiber which
could not compete with low price of new synthetics. Plus when damp,
this fabric smelled like sour milk, causing many consumer complaints!"
I have one of the 1960s "VITA-FELT" (NOT "Vita-Felt process) hats
that is marked "3X Beaver" but doesn't feel like the other 3X Beaver
Stetson hats I have from that period.
So:
Vita-felt process #1 (ca. 1940's) mixed casein and rabbit fur. This version
of Vita-felt was not used by Stetson for very long.
Vita-Felt #2 (ca 1967) may be nothing more than marketing or
may incorporate some synthetic fiber - tough to tell but my hat
does NOT smell like sour milk when it is wet.
Vita-felt process #3 (current) uses 100% wool and most likely incorporates
some sort of new process not related to the 1940's process.
wgiceman
One of the Regulars
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BanjoMerlin said:
So, the more recent Vita-Felt hats are a nicer version of a 'wool' felt? Is that the right understanding?
wgiceman said:
Clearly. The two happened close in time. Therefore, one must have caused the other.
First, the 1960s Vita-Felt hats are not the same animal as the 40s Vita-Felts as is evident by the ads, the new "process" label, and the hats themselves. Stetson recycled the name, just as they have recycled it again for the European market, and just as they have recycled the Whippet name.
No one has posted that their 40s vita felt smells like sour milk when wet, that it shrinks, or that it has a lesser hand than any other fur felt. To the contrary, Buler's post compares his to a 7X Clear Beaver.
As the Milk thread illustrates (link is on the first page of this thread), the casein was used to replace wool. Stetson's fedoras under the Royal and Royal Deluxe designations were not wool, and yet, the vita felts shown here are generally of one of those designations.
However, Stetson made hundreds of thousands of women's hats every year, nearly all of which were wool.
Also, while not conclusive, note the cost of the various hats in the ads. Vita felt is often more expensive than non-vita-felt hats.
This is not to say that it's impossible that casein fiber was used in vita felt. The conclusion you've presented, however, is not supported by the facts - something which has become routine in your posts.
jimmy the lid
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BanjoMerlin said:
Gotta say, BanjoMerlin -- there is absolutely nothing in your post that remotely supports such a conclusion. The cited language from the Third Circuit opinion doesn't in any way implicate Stetson's Vita-Felt Process as the subject of any dispute between Hat Corporation of America and Stetson.
From a marketing standpoint -- as demonstrated by some of the news articles and ads presented in this thread -- Stetson's Vita-Felt Process was introduced to offer an alternative to foreign hats, like Borsalino, that were no longer being imported due to the war. At a time when a standard Royal Stetson was selling for $5, the Vita-Felt was selling for double that amount. It's hard to imagine Stetson gearing up an entire marketing campaign to attract customers seeking the quality of fine foreign hats, and then supplying an inferior blended hat for the price of $10.
Let me just add that some of the Vita-Felts presented in this thread are just amazing. Gotta get me one -- one of these days...
Cheers,
JtL
BanjoMerlin
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Well excuse the heck out of me for thinking you wanna-be experts might possibly bother doing even the slightest amount of research yourselves. I even gave you the patent number so you could read it for yourselves but NO that would be too much trouble.
Your 70 year-old Vita-felt hat doesn't smell like sour milk when it gets wet? Well knock me over with a feather! Of COURSE it doesn't. It is 70 YEARS OLD!
Here is the first part of patent # 2,322,254. Please note that it specifically covers replacing FUR with casein in the production of felt HAT bodies.
"This invention relates to improvements in fur-felt type hats and to improved methods of making the same.
Coney, rabbit, hare, muskrat and other fur which is satisfactory for the making of fur-felt hats is quite expensive, ranging in cost from $1.00 to $6.00 per pound, with beaver fur which is used in the very finest hats ranging up to $15.00 per pound. Consequently material cost alone in hats manufactured from such materials is considerable. Also, since much of it is imported from far distant places with irregular transportation certain types thereof are sometimes not available when needed.
One of the main objects of the present invention is the production of fine quality hats from more readily available and less expensive materials.
A complemental object is to manufacture hats from inexpensive materials which look and feel like 100% fur-felt hats.
Heretofore there have been many efforts to make hats which would have the feel, color and appearance of regular and fine fur-felt hats even though other fibers much less expensive than fur were included in the body thereof. Although many efforts have been made, for fifty years or more, no really practical solution has been proposed before the present invention.
A feature resulting from the attainment of this object is the making of hat bodies including a mixture of from 25 to 95% of regular fur, normally used in making fur-felt hats, and 5 to 75% of specially selected and worked inexpensive casein fibers to complete the body, said fur and casein fibers being thoroughly intermingled and felted together. The latter is now preferably accomplished with water and/or steam and pressure. This feature results in much less expensive hat bodies having the feel, color and appearance of 100% fur-felt hats."
Your 70 year-old Vita-felt hat doesn't smell like sour milk when it gets wet? Well knock me over with a feather! Of COURSE it doesn't. It is 70 YEARS OLD!
Here is the first part of patent # 2,322,254. Please note that it specifically covers replacing FUR with casein in the production of felt HAT bodies.
"This invention relates to improvements in fur-felt type hats and to improved methods of making the same.
Coney, rabbit, hare, muskrat and other fur which is satisfactory for the making of fur-felt hats is quite expensive, ranging in cost from $1.00 to $6.00 per pound, with beaver fur which is used in the very finest hats ranging up to $15.00 per pound. Consequently material cost alone in hats manufactured from such materials is considerable. Also, since much of it is imported from far distant places with irregular transportation certain types thereof are sometimes not available when needed.
One of the main objects of the present invention is the production of fine quality hats from more readily available and less expensive materials.
A complemental object is to manufacture hats from inexpensive materials which look and feel like 100% fur-felt hats.
Heretofore there have been many efforts to make hats which would have the feel, color and appearance of regular and fine fur-felt hats even though other fibers much less expensive than fur were included in the body thereof. Although many efforts have been made, for fifty years or more, no really practical solution has been proposed before the present invention.
A feature resulting from the attainment of this object is the making of hat bodies including a mixture of from 25 to 95% of regular fur, normally used in making fur-felt hats, and 5 to 75% of specially selected and worked inexpensive casein fibers to complete the body, said fur and casein fibers being thoroughly intermingled and felted together. The latter is now preferably accomplished with water and/or steam and pressure. This feature results in much less expensive hat bodies having the feel, color and appearance of 100% fur-felt hats."
jimmy the lid
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Hey, Banjo Merlin -- lose the attitude. You have provided a lot of material having to do with the use of casein in the hat-making process. No one here has disputed that such a process existed. But, based on nothing but pure conjecture, you have offered the conclusion that the casein/fur process and Stetson's Vita-Felt Process are one and the same. You have provided no support whatsoever for that proposition, and none of the materials you have cited serves to link the two. It's that simple. If you do find such evidence, I'm sure we're all ears...
BanjoMerlin
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Attitude? I'm not the one who said "The conclusion you've presented, however, is not supported by the facts - something which has become routine in your posts.
How much more CLEAR can just these few facts be? What OTHER special processes was Stetson advertising in the early 1940's? In the context of this legal case, the ONLY patents under consideration are #2,322,254 and #2,322,255. The case is specifically about casein]/B] so, in fact, only patent #2,322,254 is at hand.
ARALAC, Inc was a manufacturer of casein fiber and was trying to get two of Hat Corporation
of America's patents (2,322,254 and 2,322,255) invalidated. These two patents were for a process
of making felt with man-made fibers (2,322,254 with milk casein and 2,322,255 with soy prolon).
(ARALAC) for years manufactured and sold casein fiber to fur felt hat manufacturers.
One of plaintiff's largest customers, John B. Stetson Co., was charged with infringement.
Since ARALAC only sold casein, that is the only product they COULD have sold to Stetson. Patent #2,322,254 is SPECIFICALLY for the replacement of FUR with CASEIN in felt hats. The ONLY patent Stetson COULD have been charged with infringing is #2,322,254 or it would not have been germain to the case at hand and would not have been mentioned at all.
Therefore, Stetson was making felt hats with casein using a process similar, if not identical, to the process patented in #2,322,254. Stetson could not claim those hats were 100% fur felt, nor would they want to advertise that they were made of something OTHER than fur felt, so they used an entirely NEW trademark and never mentioned the actual content of the felt at all.
I know you WANT Vita-felt to be 100% fur felt but that is just not what the historical evidence supports.
How much more CLEAR can just these few facts be? What OTHER special processes was Stetson advertising in the early 1940's? In the context of this legal case, the ONLY patents under consideration are #2,322,254 and #2,322,255. The case is specifically about casein]/B] so, in fact, only patent #2,322,254 is at hand.
ARALAC, Inc was a manufacturer of casein fiber and was trying to get two of Hat Corporation
of America's patents (2,322,254 and 2,322,255) invalidated. These two patents were for a process
of making felt with man-made fibers (2,322,254 with milk casein and 2,322,255 with soy prolon).
(ARALAC) for years manufactured and sold casein fiber to fur felt hat manufacturers.
One of plaintiff's largest customers, John B. Stetson Co., was charged with infringement.
Since ARALAC only sold casein, that is the only product they COULD have sold to Stetson. Patent #2,322,254 is SPECIFICALLY for the replacement of FUR with CASEIN in felt hats. The ONLY patent Stetson COULD have been charged with infringing is #2,322,254 or it would not have been germain to the case at hand and would not have been mentioned at all.
Therefore, Stetson was making felt hats with casein using a process similar, if not identical, to the process patented in #2,322,254. Stetson could not claim those hats were 100% fur felt, nor would they want to advertise that they were made of something OTHER than fur felt, so they used an entirely NEW trademark and never mentioned the actual content of the felt at all.
I know you WANT Vita-felt to be 100% fur felt but that is just not what the historical evidence supports.
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Do you have a patent or any hard evidence at all that says the vita-felt process involved casein?
Also, Banjomerlin, do you own or have you handled any vita-felts?
I believe the casein hats made by Stetson in the WWII period were marketed as plasti-felt, or something along those lines, I'm trying to find the pictures. Those may have been some other weird experimental short lived mixture though. Not very many survive.
Here's another thread on casein felt. It states that "they lose strength when wet and must be handled gently. They cannot be kept damp for any length of time due to quick mildewing." and that "Casein fibers cannot be distinguished from wool fibers by chemical or burning tests, only by microscope".
I've owned literally hundreds of vintage fedoras and handled many more, so I trust my ability to tell the difference between wool and fur felt. The several vita felts I have owned are high quality hats and do not appear to be cheap wool blends. I have had to wet, steam and reshape them and did not experience any of the issues mentioned in the article. Vita-felt hats are relatively common in terms of Stetsons from that era. With as many good examples as there are out there and the shortcomings of the material as listed in period materials (bad smell, mildewing, strength loss, wool-like quality) I just can't imagine they would have survived as well as they have and in the quantity they have. And vita-felt hats weren't cheap hats as you would expect with something that was a shortage-avoiding sub par material.
Here are some Casein hats.
Also, Banjomerlin, do you own or have you handled any vita-felts?
I believe the casein hats made by Stetson in the WWII period were marketed as plasti-felt, or something along those lines, I'm trying to find the pictures. Those may have been some other weird experimental short lived mixture though. Not very many survive.
Here's another thread on casein felt. It states that "they lose strength when wet and must be handled gently. They cannot be kept damp for any length of time due to quick mildewing." and that "Casein fibers cannot be distinguished from wool fibers by chemical or burning tests, only by microscope".
I've owned literally hundreds of vintage fedoras and handled many more, so I trust my ability to tell the difference between wool and fur felt. The several vita felts I have owned are high quality hats and do not appear to be cheap wool blends. I have had to wet, steam and reshape them and did not experience any of the issues mentioned in the article. Vita-felt hats are relatively common in terms of Stetsons from that era. With as many good examples as there are out there and the shortcomings of the material as listed in period materials (bad smell, mildewing, strength loss, wool-like quality) I just can't imagine they would have survived as well as they have and in the quantity they have. And vita-felt hats weren't cheap hats as you would expect with something that was a shortage-avoiding sub par material.
Here are some Casein hats.
jimmy the lid
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BanjoMerlin said:
BanjoMerlin -- simply repeating your argument emphatically does not make it any more logical. You have no idea -- none -- how Stetson may have been using casein as part of the manufacturing process. Nor have you provided any "evidence" that connects casein and Vita Felt. As framed, your argument is utterly unpersuasive. I don't care if Vita-Felt was made of fur or rubber -- but any conclusions in that regard will have to be based on real evidence and not ill-supported conjecture.
Brad Bowers
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In deference to BanjoMerlin, it's not a bad conjecture, but I would add that it's still conjecture at this point.
Also, Hat Corporation of America's press release from October 1940 states that the casein fibers would be used to make "top quality hats," so they were planning on marketing them as such, rather than as inferior.
They settled on adding 10% casein fibers to the felt to offset the shortage of European rabbit and hare fur at the time. C&K/HCA had been experimenting with adulterated fur felts for twenty years, including earlier attempts with both Italian and Japanese casein fibers, before settling on the American casein.
Brad
Also, Hat Corporation of America's press release from October 1940 states that the casein fibers would be used to make "top quality hats," so they were planning on marketing them as such, rather than as inferior.
They settled on adding 10% casein fibers to the felt to offset the shortage of European rabbit and hare fur at the time. C&K/HCA had been experimenting with adulterated fur felts for twenty years, including earlier attempts with both Italian and Japanese casein fibers, before settling on the American casein.
Brad
BanjoMerlin
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Well, since obviously some of you are incapable of logical deduction I guess this will end here.
There is a WEALTH of evidence pointing to "Vita-Felt process" including casein but it does require some intelligence in order to be able to understand and evaluate that evidence.
As to the Stetson Plastic Felt being what Stetson was using the casein for, it doesn't fit the timeline. The Plastic Felt didn't come out until after WW2.
There is a WEALTH of evidence pointing to "Vita-Felt process" including casein but it does require some intelligence in order to be able to understand and evaluate that evidence.
As to the Stetson Plastic Felt being what Stetson was using the casein for, it doesn't fit the timeline. The Plastic Felt didn't come out until after WW2.
danofarlington
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If you subtract all the fireworks, this was a fairly interesting discussion, conjecture and all. I mean, if you can't conject here, where can you conject? No lives are at stake in the Vita-Felt debate. I like to know what some people think might have been the case, and hear counter speculation. Why can't someone just make an argument? If another thinks otherwise, he can counter-argue. Personally, although I like to know facts, I don't care in a hat website what could be proven in court. More facts are better, and that's interesting, but getting to the bottom of what cynical marketing people did in the 1940s may not lend itself to knowing all the last facts of the matter in 2010.MKL said:
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Unsupported conjecture is being offered as fact and demanding fact to disprove it.
Banjomerlin:
I guess you just want to believe that all hats are wool or milk. My statement about your pattern of unsupported conclusions is an accurate characterization of your posts.
As you say, if walks like a duck... - which really isn't the best logic either.
Banjomerlin:
I guess you just want to believe that all hats are wool or milk. My statement about your pattern of unsupported conclusions is an accurate characterization of your posts.
As you say, if walks like a duck... - which really isn't the best logic either.
No. I'm saying that you have shown no proof of your argument, which is that Vita-Felt is casein. You've linked the facts that (A) casein was used in the making of hats during WWII with (B) vita-felt hats were introduced and made by Stetson during WWII to conclude that (C) vita-felt hats must contain casein. C does not follow from A and B, and you have shown nothing beyond A and B to support C.
jimmy the lid
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Although, apparently, I am incapable of logical deduction, I think I know a false syllogism when I see one...
BanjoMerlin
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Lefty said:
Go back and READ what I said. You left out the important parts.
(A) casein was used in the making of hats during WWII with
(B) vita-felt hats were introduced and made by Stetson during WWII to conclude that
(C) Stetson was one of ARALAC's largest customers for casein. The legal case was focused entirely on the manufacture of FELT hats.
(D) The Stetson vita-felt process was introduced in 1941, shortly after the Aralac milk casein was available in commercial quantites. This also coincides with the period that fur imports from Europe were becoming scarce as were imported hats from Italy and the other European countries.
(E) Once HCoA was granted the patent in 1943, Stetson was infringing on HCoA's patent #2,322,254 (using casein in the felt for making hats) and subsequently licensed that process from HCoA.
(F) Stetson did not use the vita-felt process after WW2, even though they had spent considerable effort establishing the trademark and advertising the process in 1941 and 1942.
The logical conclusion is:
(G) vita-felt hats must contain casein.
I know, you just don't want to believe the vita-felt process was anything other than magical. You don't want to believe that casein was being used in "quality" felt hats in the 1940's. You don't want to believe a hat containing casein could have the same "feel" as an all fur felt hat.
Read patent #2,322,245. Look at claim #16. "a novel hat body meeting the standards of an all-fur felt hat body, including the characteristics of feel, texture, appearance, wet and dry strength, and wearing qualities"
And, if you're still with us, check out this page from the 1944-1947 United States Department of Agriculture's Yearbook of Agriculture. Don't miss the part that states "Most felt hats sold in the United States contain some casein fiber".
Fight it all you want, the evidence is clear.
Again, all that you've posted only shows that vita felt existed during the same time as casein felt. Aside from merely noting that the two are similar in time, you've taken a few huge leaps of logic in your conclusion, by failing to show any proof of:
whether or not Stetson was using casein felt at all (as proposed use could easily lead to a suit for infringement - manufacture of hats and sale of hats is not the same),
and, if so, whether it was used by Stetson in men's hats (as, again, Stetson has also been a leader in the manufacture of women's felt hats, which are almost always wool),
and, if so whether it was used in vita-felt hats.
Again, your conclusion is based upon two events, happening in relative close proximity in time.
I'm hungry after responding to your post. Your post discusses vita-felt. Therefore, vita-felt has made me hungry.
Further, you've failed to respond to Dinerman's post at all. It's clear that you've handled very few hats, that you've never handled vita-felt, and that you've never read a post that indicates that vita-felt is delicate or mildews easily. Even allowing, for now, your belief that the bad milk smell might dissipate over time, you've addressed none of this. Anyone who has handled a number of wool felt hats and a number of fur felt hats can immediately tell the difference in almost every case. Having handled neither, having posted no accounts relating anyone's experiences that would indicate that their vita-felt acts as casein felt is said to act, and lacking anything other than time on your side, your demands for proof and for others to support your unsubstantiated conclusions will not be met. I'm always willing to change my mind, but I'm not going to do so based the kind of conjecture that so clearly convinces you.
whether or not Stetson was using casein felt at all (as proposed use could easily lead to a suit for infringement - manufacture of hats and sale of hats is not the same),
and, if so, whether it was used by Stetson in men's hats (as, again, Stetson has also been a leader in the manufacture of women's felt hats, which are almost always wool),
and, if so whether it was used in vita-felt hats.
Again, your conclusion is based upon two events, happening in relative close proximity in time.
I'm hungry after responding to your post. Your post discusses vita-felt. Therefore, vita-felt has made me hungry.
Further, you've failed to respond to Dinerman's post at all. It's clear that you've handled very few hats, that you've never handled vita-felt, and that you've never read a post that indicates that vita-felt is delicate or mildews easily. Even allowing, for now, your belief that the bad milk smell might dissipate over time, you've addressed none of this. Anyone who has handled a number of wool felt hats and a number of fur felt hats can immediately tell the difference in almost every case. Having handled neither, having posted no accounts relating anyone's experiences that would indicate that their vita-felt acts as casein felt is said to act, and lacking anything other than time on your side, your demands for proof and for others to support your unsubstantiated conclusions will not be met. I'm always willing to change my mind, but I'm not going to do so based the kind of conjecture that so clearly convinces you.
