Milans from Optimo & Panama Grading

[Lefty]

I do think, however, that I'll make a webpage with our favorite weavers so that the quality and consistency will be there on those particular hats (BTW, anything 700 weaves are over come from the same 5-6 weavers, so the consistency is there). It makes sense from the standpoint of competing with the high dollar hatters, I suppose. And it looks like I'll have to come out with both guns ablazin'.

I think that's a great idea. Distinguishing quality within the same wpi, and charging appropriately for the difference, allows for both consistency and better educated buyers.

 

[Panamabob]

That's where it will get interesting...the pricing. Boy, they'll hate me even more in Chicago, Hawaii, and New Mexico.

 

[Lefty]

That's where it will get interesting...the pricing. Boy, they'll hate me even more in Chicago, Hawaii, and New Mexico.

But if you are able to establish a scale for both wpi and fineness of weave, you will be able to say, without question, that a hat of Xwpi at Grade N fineness is $Y from you, while a hat of exactly the same quality will be 3 x $Y from anyone else.

I honestly hope you can do it.

 

[HungaryTom]

Bob,

Just adapt the Playmate of the month system with your Montecristi.
Post one commissioned hat photo you sell each month.
In the newsletter, to start with?

Tom

 

[HungaryTom]

Panamas from Milano

Strange...

While posting here I just had a phone call from my best friend who was in Milano.
He saw my Panamabob hats in person so he knows about them somewhat.
He called me from a hat shop with panama hats.
I redirected him to the most expensive and asked him to read out what does it say?
Montecristi fino -580 EUR.
I asked him to read the brand - Bor-sa-lino he answered.
I asked him to make a photo with his mobile.
He promised to do it.

 

[Lefty]

Tom, I don't think anyone would dispute that a huge portion of any modern Borsalino hat price is just payment for the name.

 

[lucas]

Bob,

I like Tom's idea about a Montecristi of the month pic in the newsletter. It would give us all a chance to see some of the fine hats people are weaving and buying.

 

[Tomasso]

Graham makes the best Panama I've ever seen.

You're not alone in your assessment. It seems that the world has beaten a path to Beverly.

 

[Panamabob]

Graham makes the best Panama I've ever seen.

In fact, more than one hatter thinks that it is his handiwork on my Brent Black hat in the closet.

 

[HatDoc]

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/311/311.F2d.358.6008_1.html

Not to distract anyone from this delightful discussion and back to the original thread, but.............

Lefty, now I'm even further confused (about Milan straw hats)

The Optimo website would seem to imply that they sell Chinese woven Milan braid. They also never mention anything about the hats ever being made in Italy. But the 1962 FTC litigation would indicate that the name must be reserved for hats made of wheat straw from China or Italy, but must be sewn/manufactured in Italy.

Did I read this wrong or what?

Did Graham discuss these details with you?

Based on the above....are we better off buying a vintage Milan? If so, how "vintage" must it be to insure that we get an actual, real, authentic, genuine, Italian-made Milan? If anyone else has further knowledge about this, please feel free to chime in.

Thanks,

Randy

 

[cookie]

This seems to be one of the most under-represented hats on the Lounge.
Let's see 'em.

Milans? Milans you want? I got Milans....

 

[Tomasso]

Milans? Milans you want? I got Milans....

Nice lid there, Cookie. Or Spilotro, or whoever you are.

 

[HungaryTom]

The Optimo website would seem to imply that they sell Chinese woven Milan braid. They also never mention anything about the hats ever being made in Italy. But the 1962 FTC litigation would indicate that the name must be reserved for hats made of wheat straw from China or Italy, but must be sewn/manufactured in Italy.


Based on the above....are we better off buying a vintage Milan? If so, how "vintage" must it be to insure that we get an actual, real, authentic, genuine, Italian-made Milan? If anyone else has further knowledge about this, please feel free to chime in.

Randy,

http://www.kakukk.ro/content/view/1262/29

This is a link to a Hungarian article about wheat straw museum in rural Transylvania. The museum is located in a small village peasant house with 3 rooms.
This answers your question why there are no more/hardly any hats woven in Milano - this profession might have died out in the industrial heart of Northern Italy. The Hungarian straw hat weaving tradition came straight from Milano, our conscripts were serving there when Milano was part of the Habsburg empire. Once the veterans came back to their farms they did weave wheat hats.
Songtext in Hungarian about Majland - (Milano)
http://www.zeneszoveg.hu/lyrics.php?lc=22779

Exerpt from the hat museum article - they also offer summer camps where weaving is thought for the interested. (My translation):
-Where did you collect the hats for the museum?
- The museum belongs to a third generation weaver family - our grandparents knew where our hats were bought in the country. The main issue is that we display here rather straw hats made the traditional way, and the old tools.
-It must be mentioned that there are hardly old straw hats in this museum - there are hardly old wheat straw hats at all or they are VERY RARE - when the straw hat brittles, cracks open its service life comes to an end. The wearers throw it away or it ends up in the flames of a stove." http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/04/img/2-sz-2.jpg

Other wheat straw hat sources:
Straw folk art including some hats
http://www.szalmakincstar.hu/seta.php

Photo contest 'When wheat is turned into hats'
http://www.korispatak.ro/fotopalyazat/

Wheat straw is not eternal. I would not buy them so much. Just my opinion.

Tom

 

[HatDoc]

Wheat straw is not eternal. I would not buy them so much. Just my opinion.

Tom

Thanks for the info, Tom.

So.....you would avoid vintage Milans altogether, since they may get brittle and fall apart? Sounds reasonable.

I would like 1 or 2 darker straw hats for summer wear. I have my Panamas, but sometimes I need something darker. What would you recommend?

Randy

 

[HungaryTom]

Thanks for the info, Tom.

So.....you would avoid vintage Milans altogether, since they may get brittle and fall apart? Sounds reasonable.

I would like 1 or 2 darker straw hats for summer wear. I have my Panamas, but sometimes I need something darker. What would you recommend?

Randy

Randy,

I meant I would not buy OLD and vintage wheat straw hats as utility hats.
Buy new ones - keep the economy going.
Wheat is wheat - whether woven by Italians or Chinese.
It is another thing if you like to collect vintage, but collecting is always different.
Simply consider the fact that wheat straw hats are woven from thicker strands so they might crack easier than the toquilla palm. You never see 100 years old haystacks either ?
I have a 10+ year old wheat straw hat - it brittles and is falling apart I only keep it for sentimental reasons.
There was info at FL (a real knowledge fountain) that in the US people did break out their straws - killing the worn out ones and buying a new one.
You would never do it with a Montecristi fino panama.

Tom

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Grahams hats are indedd woven from wheat straw in China. i talked to him about this last week...

 

[Lefty]

I found the 1962 case on the day that I posted it. I did not talk to Graham about the history of milan hat sources. I agree that it is somewhat confusing, but the case and (I think it was) the Miller Hat site, indicate that the milan braid was being simultaneously done in both China and Italy.

Though I have no source on this, I believe that the combination of former difficulties in trading with China (for political or practical reasons) along with the US desire to lend some quality control to the market led to the decision in the FTC case. At this point, with hats being the dead industry that they are, I doubt that Borsalino is going to file a petition to have little Optimo Graham stop calling his hats milans - when, according to both PB and Optimo - Optimo is the only place in North America where you can buy a new, genuine milan.

As to how they'll hold up, I can't say. To claim that milans won't hold up because you see more vintage panamas is spurious at best. Milans are far more casual, and were likely treated (beaten on) as casual hats. This is likely why you see more vintage suits in great condition, rather than work pants. Suits were treated with care: mended, pressed, and cleaned. Work pants were work pants.

I'll be treating my milan like a suit.

Not to distract anyone from this delightful discussion and back to the original thread, but.............

Lefty, now I'm even further confused (about Milan straw hats)

The Optimo website would seem to imply that they sell Chinese woven Milan braid. They also never mention anything about the hats ever being made in Italy. But the 1962 FTC litigation would indicate that the name must be reserved for hats made of wheat straw from China or Italy, but must be sewn/manufactured in Italy.

Did I read this wrong or what?

Did Graham discuss these details with you?

Based on the above....are we better off buying a vintage Milan? If so, how "vintage" must it be to insure that we get an actual, real, authentic, genuine, Italian-made Milan? If anyone else has further knowledge about this, please feel free to chime in.

Thanks,

Randy

 

[HatDoc]

Grahams hats are indedd woven from wheat straw in China. i talked to him about this last week...

Thanks, Bruce.

 

[HatDoc]

I found the 1962 case on the day that I posted it. I did not talk to Graham about the history of milan hat sources. I agree that it is somewhat confusing, but the case and (I think it was) the Miller Hat site, indicate that the milan braid was being simultaneously done in both China and Italy.

Though I have no source on this, I believe that the combination of former difficulties in trading with China (for political or practical reasons) along with the US desire to lend some quality control to the market led to the decision in the FTC case. At this point, with hats being the dead industry that they are, I doubt that Borsalino is going to file a petition to have little Optimo Graham stop calling his hats milans - when, according to both PB and Optimo - Optimo is the only place in North America where you can buy a new, genuine milan.

As to how they'll hold up, I can't say. To claim that milans won't hold up because you see more vintage panamas is spurious at best. Milans are far more casual, and were likely treated (beaten on) as casual hats. This is likely why you see more vintage suits in great condition, rather than work pants. Suits were treated with care: mended, pressed, and cleaned. Work pants were work pants.

I'll be treating my milan like a suit.

Thanks for the reply. I just bought this VINTAGE KNAPP off of OFAS. Hopefully, it will fit me. I'm happy to get a "Genuine Italian Milan" for that price......can't see paying almost $400 for a new one from China......a Montecristi, yes, but not a Milan, when there are so many nice ones floating around. However.......if I were standing across the counter from the lovely Tiffany, and Graham came in and fitted my hat, I'm sure I'd be walking outa there with one myself.

Congrats on your new Optimo. Got any photos up yet????

Randy

P.S. Tom.....I had already pulled the trigger on the Milan when you posted your comments. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it holds up.

 

[Tomasso]

It seems that there's a reluctance on the part of the hat brokers/makers on FL to even discuss the subject.