Milans from Optimo & Panama Grading

[Lefty]

I don't see why a common straw from one 3rd world country is any better than a common straw from another third world country. Though I'm certainly not pro-China, I am entirely indifferent to all of Central and South America. It's about the end product, isn't it? All of the discussion about the source of the materials, the hardships of the weavers, and the intentions of the vendors makes my head spin. I just want a nice hat, not a peace prize. To paraphrase a retired Lounger, I'm buying a hat, not a story. In this case, I bought a fine, brownish straw hat to compliment the panama I bought from Bob. Did I pay too much for a straw hat? Of course. They're all just a bunch of leaves.

Tom is right - wheat is wheat. Felt is also just felt. What Art can do with a 100% beaver felt body, however, vs. what Stetson can do with a 100% beaver felt body, illustrates that we're talking about more than materials alone.

I would like to pick up a vintage milan in my size from ebay to compare it to the one I've purchased from Optimo. However, I'm also unsure of when the adulteration (using paper or other materials with/in place of the wheat straw) began - or if I'd even be able to tell the difference. In light of the FTC case, I wonder what "genuine milan" on any vintage hat really means - it might mean that it was woven in Italy, but of Chinese or other straw, or that it was woven in Italy of some blend of straw and something else. Would this matter to me? I don't know.

I don't have the hat from Optimo in my hands yet. I expect to receive it on Mon or Tues. I'll get pics of the hat and my visit to the shop up this week.

Thanks for the reply. I just bought this VINTAGE KNAPP off of OFAS. Hopefully, it will fit me. I'm happy to get a "Genuine Italian Milan" for that price......can't see paying almost $400 for a new one from China......a Montecristi, yes, but not a Milan, when there are so many nice ones floating around. However.......if I were standing across the counter from the lovely Tiffany, and Graham came in and fitted my hat, I'm sure I'd be walking outa there with one myself.

Congrats on your new Optimo. Got any photos up yet????

Randy

P.S. Tom.....I had already pulled the trigger on the Milan when you posted your comments. Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it holds up.

 

[HatDoc]

I don't see why a common straw from one 3rd world country is any better than a common straw from another third world country. Though I'm certainly not pro-China, I am entirely indifferent to all of Central and South America. It's about the end product, isn't it? All of the discussion about the source of the materials, the hardships of the weavers, and the intentions of the vendors makes my head spin. I just want a nice hat, not a peace prize. To paraphrase a retired Lounger, I'm buying a hat, not a story. In this case, I bought a fine, brownish straw hat to compliment the panama I bought from Bob. Did I pay too much for a straw hat? Of course. They're all just a bunch of leaves.

Tom is right - wheat is wheat. Felt is also just felt. What Art can do with a 100% beaver felt body, however, vs. what Stetson can do with a 100% beaver felt body, illustrates that we're talking about more than materials alone.

I would like to pick up a vintage milan in my size from ebay to compare it to the one I've purchased from Optimo. However, I'm also unsure of when the adulteration (using paper or other materials with/in place of the wheat straw) began - or if I'd even be able to tell the difference. In light of the FTC case, I wonder what "genuine milan" on any vintage hat really means - it might mean that it was woven in Italy, but of Chinese or other straw, or that it was woven in Italy of some blend of straw and something else. Would this matter to me? I don't know.

I don't have the hat from Optimo in my hands yet. I expect to receive it on Mon or Tues. I'll get pics of the hat and my visit to the shop up this week.

I hope you don't think that I was criticizing. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

It seems as though the current offerings are all made in China. And, knowing Optimo's quality, I'm sure it'll be a real pip. As I said, if I had been in Chicago, I would not have left the store empty-handed either.

Can't wait to see pix of it.

Randy

P.S. Lefty........PM headed your way.

 

[HungaryTom]

Lefty,

I found earlier an encyclopedia article http://www.kislexikon.hu/carludovica.html which states that Carludovica palmata hats (Guayaquil hats) are better, lighter, more durable than the formerly so popular wheat straw hat from Italy.
The source, Pallas Lexicon was issued between 1893 and 1897 and later updated in the 1920-1930's. The Golden Age - the heydays of straw hats.
The pricing of Graham also indicates the same: his Montecristi begin at the price range where the Milans (wheat straw) end.

Also: Italy will most probably not start an appelation control campaign of a product that has died out in the originator town/region and is woven only in other rural areas of the country if at all.
China or not China, it is them who continue this art form, end of story.

Randy,

Congratulations to your Milan.

 

[Panamabob]

I'm buying a hat, not a story.

Said lounger is a very good friend of mine. His point regarding this paraphrase is apparently lost. This after he paid $400.00 for a 1600 weave hat, after having shopped around. Yes, he loves Graham and his work, but the savings of $2000.00 did not go unnoticed.

 

[Lefty]

Not at all, but I appreciate your politeness.
I take posts at face value. I was just responding to an idea.

I hope you don't think that I was criticizing. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

It seems as though the current offerings are all made in China. And, knowing Optimo's quality, I'm sure it'll be a real pip. As I said, if I had been in Chicago, I would not have left the store empty-handed either.

Can't wait to see pix of it.

Randy

P.S. Lefty........PM headed your way.

 

[Lefty]

Lefty,

I found earlier an encyclopedia article http://www.kislexikon.hu/carludovica.html which states that Carludovica palmata hats (Guayaquil hats) are better, lighter, more durable than the formerly so popular wheat straw hat from Italy.
The source, Pallas Lexicon was issued between 1893 and 1897 and later updated in the 1920-1930's. The Golden Age - the heydays of straw hats.
The pricing of Graham also indicates the same: his Montecristi begin at the price range where the Milans (wheat straw) end.

Also: Italy will most probably not start an appelation control campaign of a product that has died out in the originator town/region and is woven only in other rural areas of the country if at all.
China or not China, it is them who continue this art form, end of story.

Tom, I agree with your second paragraph completely. My concern of the continuation of the art form of straw hat making, however, does not extend beyond my own purchase. Sorry, but I'm a buyer, not a crusader.

As to the first paragraph, I'll take your word as to the translation.

However, I find the source itself somewhat suspect without further information. This is not to say that I don't believe what you've said, simply that an encyclopedia that gives an opinon such as x product is "better" than y product, seems a bit odd; a statment of durability with a citation to some sort of study, OK - but "better"? If a modern encyclopedia wrote that Toyotas often have a higher resale value than Fords, I'd buy it. If it said that Toyotas are better than Fords, I'd check to see who owned the publishing company behind the encyclopedia.

As to Graham's prices, I again think you've posited a spurious argument. Your argument is that (A) panamas are more expensive than milans from the same seller and, therefore (B) milans must be of a lesser quality. However, you've not considered the cost at the source, customs and shipping, difficulty in blocking, demand, etc. There are so many variables between A and B that connecting the two without further information is imposible.

Whether one straw is of a better quality than another is also sort of a strage argument to be making as to the value of a hat. If I wanted durability, I'd buy a plastic hat. If I wanted a low price, I'd buy a new paper milan once a week. In this case, what I wanted was a genuine milan, blocked and finished by one of the most respected hatters in the country.

Will it hold up for 100 years? I doubt it. If I wear them enough, none of my hats will. I don't care. I don't expect to live that long and I'm not looking to leave a mark though my hat collection.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

i actually own a miller mylan hat & i am not very happy with it. it is so stiff, that even though they advertise it as "geniune mylan" it looks & feels like plastic molded into the shape of a fedora.
also, here are some pics of my latest mylan from Optimo in Chicago...

 

[Lefty]

That's a beauty BW.
The ribbon I selected is very similar.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's a beauty BW.
The ribbon I selected is very similar.

thanx. i did not pick the ribbon. one of grahams emploies named tiffiany chose it for me, as well as the hat itself...

 

[Lefty]

thanx. i did not pick the ribbon. one of grahams emploies named tiffiany chose it for me, as well as the hat itself...

Tiffany is a real peach. She put up with me for way longer than anyone should ever have to.
Of course, I'd probably wear a smile all day and be willing to deal with all of the hat crazies if I worked at Optimo.

 

[Viper Man]

I'm having my hat shipped for $15, to avoid the 10% sales tax...

Wow. That's alot of tax. I had no idea.

 

[AlanC]

I don't see why a common straw from one 3rd world country is any better than a common straw from another third world country.

Not necessarily per se, but there might very well be a reason if the straw itself is superior and the technique of construction is superior. I doubt you could find anyone in China who could handweave a Panama hat.

 

[Shane]

Tiffany is a real peach. She put up with me for way longer than anyone should ever have to.
Of course, I'd probably wear a smile all day and be willing to deal with all of the hat crazies if I worked at Optimo.

I love Tiffany. So does my wife. When I was picking out the ribbon for my straw, my wife told me: "Just let Tiffany pick it out; she has great taste." She was so incredibly nice when we first went in there. I (unknowingly at the time) grabbed an expensive hat by the crease and she never blinked an eye.
She just kindly showed me how to pick up a hat and why. Every time I call and introduce myself, she asks me how my wife is doing. It's very difficult to find service like that anymore. She's one of the reasons I will buy all of my hats from Optimo as long as Graham continues to make wonderful gems.

Cheers,

Shane

 

[Lefty]

I doubt you could find anyone in China who could handweave a Panama hat.

Right off the street - no way.
Bug give the Chinese sufficient motivation (better than WalMart pay), and there's going to be someone there who can pick it up.
There are, after all, 2 billion of them.

Again, as to quality, I've got to say it's apples to oranges with an end result of "who cares." Again, no decent hat is going to just fall apart within a year or two and all are made from natural fibers that are subject to weather and insect damage. A hat that lasts forever is a hat that hasn't been well worn.

Cue Indy voice: "That hat belongs in a museum."
Villain voice: "So do you."

 

[Lefty]

Every time I call and introduce myself, she asks me how my wife is doing.

That is cool.

 

[AlanC]

Well, this is apparently where we disagree on the hat issue. There is value to me in a handwoven Panama from Ecuador tied to its centuries old traditional setting. I don't think that's something that can ever be captured in an industrial process. That's not to say I wouldn't be interested in a Milan straw (I very much am!), but nothing can replace the status of an Ecuadorian Panama.

 

[Lefty]

Well, this is apparently where we disagree on the hat issue. There is value to me in a handwoven Panama from Ecuador tied to its centuries old traditional setting. I don't think that's something that can ever be captured in an industrial process. That's not to say I wouldn't be interested in a Milan straw (I very much am!), but nothing can replace the status of an Ecuadorian Panama.

I totally understand and certainly find myself thinking similarly as to many things. My initial reaction on seeing two items, one from China and one from Italy, is that the item made in Italy must be better. The Chinese item is probably made in a sweatshop by a corporation with low quality control and human rights standards. The Italian item is from the land of the Vatican, gondola rides, mobsters with family values, and old women who can cook like nobody's business.

Of course, there's no shortage of human trafficking in Italy (see this for some pretty shocking stuff - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7314175.stm) or anywhere else in the world. The quality of the item will be determined by the seller's standards in the manufacturing or purchasing of the item. Everything else - tradition, politics, geography, culture - that's all just perception. The good is the good.

As I said, though, I understand what you're saying.

I've bought my share of perception and will probably continue to do so.

 

[Lefty]

Wow. That's alot of tax. I had no idea.

I don't know anything about it, but Tiffany said that there was talk about seceding (I can't remember if it was suburbs from the county or what). I'm sure that's just some political hot air, but 10% is really pushing it.

 

[AlanC]

I don't know anything about it, but Tiffany said that there was talk about seceding (I can't remember if it was suburbs from the county or what).

The South(side) shall rise again!

 

[Lefty]

The South(side) shall rise again!

:eusa_clap lol :eusa_clap