Milans from Optimo & Panama Grading

[Panamabob]

I completely understand and I certainly would compare hats to hats. In fact, I'd go to the same homes to buy the hats that Graham does, wouldn't I?

Art has some high dollar hats for customers now. Perhaps he'll chime in.

I can't explain it, I suppose, that I could sell you a $20,000 or $8,000 hat from the very same weavers, but it would be about $1000.00. And yes, several members here have these hats and the quality is similar, since each hat is unique.

The thing we won't do is cherry pick each hat, as several high dollar companies do. We buy hats from everyone, therefore we keep our prices lower.

I've often thought of listing nearly perfect hats for more money. I suppose I should.

I guess the final point is that we don't need to sell hats to live, but rather to help family and friends in Ecuador. If it was my personal reputation, I suppose, I'd never buy hats from little kids and they'd have no reason to weave.

If you look in the archives, I've extensively written about how I could have 5-6 hats from one family rated at 500 wpsi and have 5 very different prices. Hardly anyone buys hats from the kids and young teens and we're more worried about keeping them weaving than in selling their hats for big profits.

I'd be happy for a side by side comparison from a $40.00 hat up to a $20,000 hat.

My wife says I can't write anymore about this, as it just bothers me that I can't communicate well.

BTW, $20,000 hat included round-trip first class to Ecuador and you can pick the hat our yourself in a house with a dirt floor!

 

[Lefty]

Again, I think hats, causes, and people are being intermingled.
I don't doubt that you, Graham, and others have purchased hats made by the same weavers. However, the fact that 3 hats were woven by X does not mean that the 3 hats are equal - even where they're all of the same wpi. In fact, that is something that concerns me. While each hat is bound to be unique, if you only grade by wpi and not weave quality, one 500wpi could be far superior to another 500wpi, but sell for the same price.

Prior to seeing and feeling the Optimos, everything that I had learned from your posts and those of others on the Lounge told me that wpi was the biggest factor differentiating an expensive hat from an inexpensive hat. I certainly understand that the greater the wpi, the greater the work that went into the hat. However, I have come to learn from my own experience that even, uniform weave is at least as important, if not more so, to the quality of the hat. A 500 wpi with a near perfect weave should and deserves to sell for more than a 500 wpi with a decent weave.

I know he's a hot button for you, but I really understand #2 on this list now.
http://brentblack.com/pages/styles_cost.html

 

[Lefty]

If you look in the archives, I've extensively written about how I could have 5-6 hats from one family rated at 500 wpsi and have 5 very different prices.

I have not seen hats of the same wpi offered on your site at different prices.
Please provide a link to the page on your site where such differently priced, same wpi hats can be found.

 

[AlanC]

Keep it nice

Honest and open discussion of this topic is welcome. But just some pre-emptive encouragement for everyone to maintain a civil tone. This issue has a tendency to get everyone worked up for some reason.

As this thread is actually about Optimo Milans perhaps we should pull these last few posts off into their own thread.

 

[Lefty]

My bad, Alan.
I went from milans to Optimo in general to panama grading.
Do as you will.
Thanks for keeping it focused. :eusa_clap

 

[Tomasso]

You've brought up some excellent points, Lefty.

 

[Lefty]

You've brought up some excellent points, Lefty.

Thanks. I'm not trying to argue at all and hope that I'm not projecting a negative tone. I just know that there are many people reading this, the way I read quite a bit before joining, who are really puzzled as to what makes one straw hat better than another. I don't want to convince anyone to do anything, I just like the information to be available.

 

[AlanC]

I have no problem with the discussion of quality across different suppliers. Others are welcome to agree or disagree, etc., I just want the discussion to be civil. Civility often ends up being discarded when Panamas come up, which is beyond me. [huh]

 

[Panamabob]

I think you are intermingling the two. I am plainly stating that I would welcome the chance to compare. I'll cherry pick one, as would anyone else, knowing that some people only buy from the best weavers.

I'm not apologizing for selling hats from less talented weavers. Our mission is to keep weavers weaving. However, when you get to a certain point, generally the weavers are very, very good AND I don't put a premium on the price because the hat is better.

 

[Lefty]

I think you are intermingling the two. I am plainly stating that I would welcome the chance to compare. I'll cherry pick one, as would anyone else, knowing that some people only buy from the best weavers.

I'm not apologizing for selling hats from less talented weavers. Our mission is to keep weavers weaving. However, when you get to a certain point, generally the weavers are very, very good AND I don't put a premium on the price because the hat is better.

This is exactly the issue.
Optimo is cherry picking at the point of supply. If the hat is not up to their standards, they don't buy it. Therefore, every $500, $1,000, or $20,000 hat from Optimo will be of approximately the same weave quality as any other hat they sell at the same price. For a comparison, you are stating that you'd be choosing the hat that you'd compare to one from Optimo. I'm saying that you should be able to take any hat you have in stock and compare it to one that Optimo has in stock (whether we're doing the price comparison or the wpi comparison). Your idea of selecting a hat for purposes of comparison is cherry picking from your inventory, indicating that you have hats of varying qualities within the same wpi price point.

By basing your prices solely upon wpi, but agreeing above that hats of the same wpi but varying qualities will all have the same price, one $300 hat from panamas.biz may be of an entirely different quality than another identically priced hat.

Again, each hat is bound to be unique - that's part of the charm. However, do you not agree that hats of the same price, from the same vendor, should be of the same quality level?

I don't want you to apologize for using less skilled or younger weavers. I simply believe that one hat of a certain wpi is not necessarily the equal of another hat of the same wpi. To me (and apparently to Optimo, Brent Black, and others), weave quality is at least of equal importance. Two houses can be built of exactly the same materials, but the difference in the quality of workmanship can make for a huge difference in cost. If you had 2 hats of, for example, 700 wpi and one was of near perfect weave quality, while the other was just ok, I'd gladly pay a premium for the better hat. No one wants to pay for a hat in terms of yards of straw used, or hours taken to weave it. As a consumer, I base my decision on price vs. quality: that's how I determine value. Value of a panama is more than wpi.

You have also stated that you have sold different qualities of weave with the same wpi at different prices. I again respectfully ask for a link to anything on your site that illustrates such a policy.

Again, I'm not trying to criticize you or ask for an apology for any reason. I'm just comparing hats to hats.

 

[Panamabob]

Yeah, you're right, our hats are crap. You've had what, one or two in your hands? If I did cherry pick the best hats, the prices would go up, yes. I suppose I'll do that when I'm back in Ecuador. I'll then unload the youngster's hats on ebay. I don't know if Andykev's or Zohar's hats still have photos on here, but they were under $300, if not under $200.00, and they were cream of the crop (along with dozens of more members' hats. Sounds like you got an ugly hat, sorry!

 

[Lefty]

Yeah, you're right, our hats are crap.

Please PB, I never said anything of the sort. I've discussed differences in hat selection from various vendors using both honesty AND civility. You have disagreed with me, which is fine. When pressed for proof of your own statements (regarding different prices for the same wpi), you have become less than kind.

Sounds like you got an ugly hat, sorry!

Actually, as I've said a number of times, I like my hat.
If it is ugly, by your standards, please remember that you purchased it, whereas another buyer may have passed.

 

[AlanC]

And the pre-emptive encouragement goes unheeded.

There is no reason why a discussion of Panamas needs to decline into a flame war.

A number of us here have very fine hats from Bob, me included. My reading of what Lefty has said is that he is very happy with the PB hat he has. I think Bob has made it clear that he has a business mission different from that of BB or Graham.

 

[Panamabob]

When pressed for proof of your own statements (regarding different prices for the same wpi), you have become less than kind.

Not less than kind, no. I don't offer differing prices unless one of our collector's or hatters says he needs a near perfect hat. Then, perhaps, perhaps not, I might raise the price $20.00 or $30.00 to make up for the trouble of hunting around. What I do do is PAY different prices to the weavers. We still leave the pricing the same on the website.

I'm not taking this as anything other than an offense that we don't sell hats as nice as anyone else, because we do. I just can't communicate that, I suppose.

I think I've made it clear that I do buy things that very expensive hatters pass on and we all know why.

This is what you are saying: If you buy a hat from Optimo, it will be better than a hat from The Panama Hat Works of Montecristi.

That is fine, I suppose, but I've got customers who were in Optimo's $1000.00 club or whatever, and their $300.00 or $400.00 hats are eerily similar.

 

[Lefty]

There is no reason why a discussion of Panamas needs to decline into a flame war. A number of us here have very fine hats from Bob, me included. My reading of what Lefty has said is that he is very happy with the PB hat he has. I think Bob has made it clear that he has a business mission different from that of BB or Graham.

I'm agree with everything you've said.
Please note, however, that the points I raised were never intended to go to the question of "business mission." Rather, I've been comparing hats to hats.

 

[Panamabob]

And, I'd gladly compare a $1000.00 Panama Hat Works of Montecristi hat to a $1000.00 hat from anyone, anywhere. Art is blocking one for me now, I'll see if I can get photos before it goes off to the customer.

 

[Lefty]

This is what you are saying: If you buy a hat from Optimo, it will be better than a hat from The Panama Hat Works of Montecristi.

If that is what I've conveyed, then I apologize.
My intention was to convey this:

If you buy a hat from Optimo, you can be certain that your hat of a particular price will be of the same quality as any other hat sold by Optimo of that same price. This is because Optimo grades hats by both weave quality and wpi. Thus, consistency is achieved.

If you buy a hat from TPHWoM of a certain price, you may receive a hat that has a significantly better weave quality or a significantly less even weave quality, than another hat from TPHWoM of the same price - unless, based upon your last post, you specify that you want a higher quality hat; which is not something that can be known from either your posts here or your site. This results in inconsistency.

The archive is filled with your posts discussing the need for a standardized method of rating panamas in order to achieve consistency. It is difficult to be an informed consumer without knowledge of all of the qualities that make for a great hat.

 

[Panamabob]

The website and the collectors and hatters we furnish are two entirely different bases.

As I've said, I'm not in the business to feed my family, so I sell for the weavers. So be it!

I do think, however, that I'll make a webpage with our favorite weavers so that the quality and consistency will be there on those particular hats (BTW, anything 700 weaves are over come from the same 5-6 weavers, so the consistency is there). It makes sense from the standpoint of competing with the high dollar hatters, I suppose. And it looks like I'll have to come out with both guns ablazin'.

I've sent hundreds of customers to Optimo and Graham makes the best Panama I've ever seen.

 

[HungaryTom]

Document your work

And, I'd gladly compare a $1000.00 Panama Hat Works of Montecristi hat to a $1000.00 hat from anyone, anywhere. Art is blocking one for me now, I'll see if I can get photos before it goes off to the customer.

Bob,

Just do it - especially the highlights, the TOP MODELS - like it is done with flesh and blood model agencies - they have the photos.
Photograph those beauties - dont write!
Until they are not sent off to the customer - they are yours.
Nobody can prohibit you doing that.
This is essential - to have a pool of fine hat photos to be posted regularly on your newsletter, at the lounge or on your website.

The Montecristi photos will speak for themselves. And silence any doubts - innocent or not.

Tom

 

[HungaryTom]

Bob,

Not all your customers are as cooperative as I am and show off the nice hats each time.
Especially the collectors of your finer hats seem to be stingy in this regard.
What I see is that it is mostly your ebay hats that are put up here on display.
This gives the WRONG impression about you being the seller of cheap hats - WHICH YOU ARE NOT.

What is obvious for you is NOT obvious to the noobies who are also potential customers.

But you must show -not write! that you are able to provide the high end as well!

Examples> last year the 1000 USD Montecristi raffle hat went out also UNDOCUMENTED!!!
And the winner DID NOT POST PHOTOS[huh].

August 2007 you returned with 6 Espinal hats from Pile - the Espinal Simon hat went to Belgium unphotographed - only my hat was documented...