John Lever
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Ingo, this is the one I have waited a long time for !!!Paden said:
The colour looks black or very dark brown ?
Thanks,
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LUFTWAFFE jackets - Eagles who Dare to Wear..!
- Thread starter Jokerswild7
- Start date
The colour looks black or very dark brown ?
Thanks,
johnnyjohnny
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BRiTs still winning the Luftwaffe warZ?
yes, i thought that might be the case...whilst the fliegerjacke website sells the current luftwaffe jacket (a nice exact version also done by flightsuits/gibson and barnes, for less money i believe as price is in doLLar$ not euroz), vedddy interesting their ww2 replica is done by the briTz at eastman...
as for me...i sent my noble haus back and am waiting for my aero which i chose options for that replicate nearly exactly the ww2 luftwaffe hartmann...by the great Scotts
johnnyjohnny
yes, i thought that might be the case...whilst the fliegerjacke website sells the current luftwaffe jacket (a nice exact version also done by flightsuits/gibson and barnes, for less money i believe as price is in doLLar$ not euroz), vedddy interesting their ww2 replica is done by the briTz at eastman...
as for me...i sent my noble haus back and am waiting for my aero which i chose options for that replicate nearly exactly the ww2 luftwaffe hartmann...by the great Scotts
johnnyjohnny
johnnyjohnny said:
The GB luftwaffe is not an original Luftwaffe jacket.
In WWII the most jacktes were private purchased jackets by the pilots.
The only contracted LW WWII jacket is from 1944.We got the patterns
.A friend of mine is a former pilot from JG 52 and he still has his 1944 jacket in a perfect condition.
Also the flight book, his hanhart watch and a lot of pictures.
He survived war, because he was a flight teacher and came late to front in 1944.
By the way, the LW had 24.000 fighter pilots in WWII, 1400 survived war, not a good quote.
Graemsay said:I think that the jackets sold by Original Fliegerjacken are mostly Aeros and Eastmans.
If you compare the Messerschmidt jacket (linked to above), with:
http://www.eastmanleather.com/WWIILuft.htm
It's apparent that the details are identical. (The same label, zips, etc.) Only Eastman are selling their's for a lot less.
Yes, that is right.
But we held the Messerschmitt and Arado Trade Mark for Germany and sell the jackets under our own label.The german Eastman shop sells it nearly to the same price.
But we are selling also a channel jacket, made by us, also the LW WWII shorts also made by us and we are working on a sheepskin version LW WWII.
John Lever
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How about a 30's bike jacket ?Paden said:
Edward
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tonypaj said:
I really like the looks of that.... I thought I'd heard of something like this being worn in the South Pacific theatre, but I may be very wrong on that! Either way, a good looking and practical jacket - could be a great adventurer type jacket for Summer wear.
Also really like the looks of their khakis (I'm thinking for civilian wear.... plus I like the practicality of washable cotton)... when you say 'uneven', what exactly do you mean?
John Lever
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Any thoughts on the LW jacket any one ?
Although the LW is not my big thing, to my eyes the jacket in your original post appears to be different from wartime originals in terms of pattern and fastenings.
I posted a photo of an original LW fleece flying jacket (albeit the white version) in the other LW jacket thread here. You may like to have a look at that.
I posted a photo of an original LW fleece flying jacket (albeit the white version) in the other LW jacket thread here. You may like to have a look at that.
John Lever
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The pocket and sleeve zip details look the same to me. The main difference to originals is the colour which was usually white or blue. Were there any brown jackets issued other than those made in Bulgaria ?
johnnyjohnny
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"How about a 30's bike jacket ?"
how ironic a suggestion...
that's what i finally did...rather than finding a replica, i went for the aero highwayman, which is as close to a 30s biker jacket as one can get without going back in time...
as you suggest, and i believe, i made the right decision and heartily await my aero luftwaffe
how ironic a suggestion...
that's what i finally did...rather than finding a replica, i went for the aero highwayman, which is as close to a 30s biker jacket as one can get without going back in time...
as you suggest, and i believe, i made the right decision and heartily await my aero luftwaffe
BellyTank
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Hmmm... I'm not sure an Aero Highwayman is very typical of a '30s motorcycle jacket- or, for that matter any kind of Luftwaffe jacket that I'm aware of.
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johnnyjohnny
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YaVoLT!
i must respectfully disagree mr. bellytank...
before ordering the aero hwayman i was all over the net looking at old pictures of the real luftwaffe jackets, and then the repros at eastman et aL
now take a look at this highwayman d'aero...you will see that it is minus the buckle at the bottom, and the small neck snap, and needs one more top slit pocket (yes, i ordered the added pocket), but otherwise it is quite the perfect ww2 luftwaffe jacket:
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL806/142228/7840070/103457197.jpg
now here is the eastman, which is meticulously copied from der aKTuaL (love making up unreal german words):
http://www.eastmanleather.com/WWIILuft.htm
the back on the aero i ordered is one piece, and the side buckles are the same as well...though there are a variety of highwayman jackets, i made all the options conform to the luftwaffe ww2 style...since the aero is in essence the classic motorcycle jacket, i think it's heritage, and thus it's look, is not unexpectedly very close to the original ww2 luftwaffe jackets...
looking at the pix, dontchathink???
der johnnyjohnny
i must respectfully disagree mr. bellytank...
before ordering the aero hwayman i was all over the net looking at old pictures of the real luftwaffe jackets, and then the repros at eastman et aL
now take a look at this highwayman d'aero...you will see that it is minus the buckle at the bottom, and the small neck snap, and needs one more top slit pocket (yes, i ordered the added pocket), but otherwise it is quite the perfect ww2 luftwaffe jacket:
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL806/142228/7840070/103457197.jpg
now here is the eastman, which is meticulously copied from der aKTuaL (love making up unreal german words):
http://www.eastmanleather.com/WWIILuft.htm
the back on the aero i ordered is one piece, and the side buckles are the same as well...though there are a variety of highwayman jackets, i made all the options conform to the luftwaffe ww2 style...since the aero is in essence the classic motorcycle jacket, i think it's heritage, and thus it's look, is not unexpectedly very close to the original ww2 luftwaffe jackets...
looking at the pix, dontchathink???
der johnnyjohnny
John Lever
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By 30's bike jacket, I meant something like these -
BellyTank
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Not really, johnnyjohnny, no, in my opinion.
Typical '30s MC jackets don't really look like a highwayman, from what I have seen and owned. And I believe a Highwayman(as with most modern "vintage" jackets) is too bulky and big(mine was), unless you choose a thinner hide and have it cut smaller. A highwayman, does, however, look like a vintage leather jacket- just not specifically a MC jacket, from what I have observed.
But I'm sure that what you have made, to your spec., will turn out to be what you want.
You are taking what Eastman say about their LW jacket as being true- then based on the assumption that that is what a LW jacket looks like, adapting that jacket's styling to an Aero Highwayman. I believe this to be a mistake, when trying to create a period correct LW jacket. An American style casual jacket is far away from a European leather jacket from 1930-40. You may not be able to see this.
Eastman have taken a few LW-ish, vintage-ish details and made a casual jacket, which they have added a Luftwaffe "brand" to.
Their Hatmann is so much more LW.
MC jackets...
Look at:
www.vintagemotorcyclejackets.com
for some classic examples of ... vintage motorcycle jackets.
Back to LW.
You seem to have decided what a Luftwaffe jacket looks like, so you'll surely be happy with what you get.
That is good.
My impression differs from yours.
Eastman's Hartmann style jacket looks something like the "French cycle jacket", which is kind of typical/generic in a way of a certain LW jacket style(if one must use "typical") but it has a bigger, longer fitting and I think the leather is a little bulky, from what I have seen of folks wearing them. Their generic LW jacket looks kinda like (surprise, surprise...)a Highwayman..., I guess... but not so much like any LW jacket I have laid eyes on.
There is no typical LW leather jacket, as has been discussed here at length- there were many different styles used in the early war years, the "Cycle jacket" style was popular.
Books such as "Luftwaffe vs,. RAF, flying clothing of the air war, 1939-45" are useful in gaging the range of jackets used by the LW. The LW did not issue a "standard" leather jacket until late in the war and it was nothing like any of the cited examples and not the type of jacket you seem to require.
If you were going to take a generic model of leather jacket and try to tweak it to look like something a LW pilot may have used in 1940, then the tweaks need to be in the fitting, the high-cut, tight sleeves, short waist, collar shape and small details. If one takes the jacket away from its LW context, it also loses its LW-ness.
The Eastman jackets have always(few exceptions) been engineered to be impressive, to sell and to fit those who would buy them- not to be absolutely accurate.
Most of their A-2s have been profoundly inaccurate for many years, as far as fit is concerned- which left them lacking. They sold a lot of jackets to the barrel chested, pot-bellied 40-something chair pilot- this was their market.
But this is changing now.
I can see that in your mind, you are right and have a fixed idea about what the jacket should be- I believe now, that we are looking from very different perspectives. If you want a very accurate version of a LW leather jacket, well, there isn't one on the market, as far as I have seen. This is why I don't own a repro LW jacket.
eBay is a bad example if resourcing LW jackets because there are so many faked-up examples of post war leather jackets.
Repro flight jackets is a tough world because what looks good in a photo will never be like a WW2 flight jacket if the cut is wrong and it's in a size 52.
Please, don't take anything I have said the wrong way- I too, have researched such areas, at great length, I have collected vintage clothing, uniforms and militaria AND repro flight jackets for many years and have my own, firm ideas but mine are different from yours and given this arena, I feel compelled to express them.
I disagree with you, that is all.
P.S.-
John Lever's MC jackets, posted above, are actually closer to a "Luftwaffe" jacket style than the "Highwayman type", including Eastmans generic LW. These ones above have some actual, German 1930s era styling to them.
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Typical '30s MC jackets don't really look like a highwayman, from what I have seen and owned. And I believe a Highwayman(as with most modern "vintage" jackets) is too bulky and big(mine was), unless you choose a thinner hide and have it cut smaller. A highwayman, does, however, look like a vintage leather jacket- just not specifically a MC jacket, from what I have observed.
But I'm sure that what you have made, to your spec., will turn out to be what you want.
You are taking what Eastman say about their LW jacket as being true- then based on the assumption that that is what a LW jacket looks like, adapting that jacket's styling to an Aero Highwayman. I believe this to be a mistake, when trying to create a period correct LW jacket. An American style casual jacket is far away from a European leather jacket from 1930-40. You may not be able to see this.
Eastman have taken a few LW-ish, vintage-ish details and made a casual jacket, which they have added a Luftwaffe "brand" to.
Their Hatmann is so much more LW.
MC jackets...
Look at:
www.vintagemotorcyclejackets.com
for some classic examples of ... vintage motorcycle jackets.
Back to LW.
You seem to have decided what a Luftwaffe jacket looks like, so you'll surely be happy with what you get.
That is good.
My impression differs from yours.
Eastman's Hartmann style jacket looks something like the "French cycle jacket", which is kind of typical/generic in a way of a certain LW jacket style(if one must use "typical") but it has a bigger, longer fitting and I think the leather is a little bulky, from what I have seen of folks wearing them. Their generic LW jacket looks kinda like (surprise, surprise...)a Highwayman..., I guess... but not so much like any LW jacket I have laid eyes on.
There is no typical LW leather jacket, as has been discussed here at length- there were many different styles used in the early war years, the "Cycle jacket" style was popular.
Books such as "Luftwaffe vs,. RAF, flying clothing of the air war, 1939-45" are useful in gaging the range of jackets used by the LW. The LW did not issue a "standard" leather jacket until late in the war and it was nothing like any of the cited examples and not the type of jacket you seem to require.
If you were going to take a generic model of leather jacket and try to tweak it to look like something a LW pilot may have used in 1940, then the tweaks need to be in the fitting, the high-cut, tight sleeves, short waist, collar shape and small details. If one takes the jacket away from its LW context, it also loses its LW-ness.
The Eastman jackets have always(few exceptions) been engineered to be impressive, to sell and to fit those who would buy them- not to be absolutely accurate.
Most of their A-2s have been profoundly inaccurate for many years, as far as fit is concerned- which left them lacking. They sold a lot of jackets to the barrel chested, pot-bellied 40-something chair pilot- this was their market.
But this is changing now.
I can see that in your mind, you are right and have a fixed idea about what the jacket should be- I believe now, that we are looking from very different perspectives. If you want a very accurate version of a LW leather jacket, well, there isn't one on the market, as far as I have seen. This is why I don't own a repro LW jacket.
eBay is a bad example if resourcing LW jackets because there are so many faked-up examples of post war leather jackets.
Repro flight jackets is a tough world because what looks good in a photo will never be like a WW2 flight jacket if the cut is wrong and it's in a size 52.
Please, don't take anything I have said the wrong way- I too, have researched such areas, at great length, I have collected vintage clothing, uniforms and militaria AND repro flight jackets for many years and have my own, firm ideas but mine are different from yours and given this arena, I feel compelled to express them.
I disagree with you, that is all.
P.S.-
John Lever's MC jackets, posted above, are actually closer to a "Luftwaffe" jacket style than the "Highwayman type", including Eastmans generic LW. These ones above have some actual, German 1930s era styling to them.
B
T
BellyTank
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johnnyjohnny said:
This jacket could easily be a fake. I'm making the assumption that this was from eBay..?
A bon a fide collector, or otherwise interested party, or even an individual with some common sense, would surely be able to display such a jacket in a nicer way than this.
Are you being sarcastic with this comment: "...this one has the original (and it is pretty clear it's the original) luftwaffe tag put in the jacket that these apparently had when they were commissioned or bought by luftwaffe pilots"
Because that label has quite obviously been added in a very amateurish way- terrible hand stitching and perhaps even a post-war label. I can't quite read the label, apart from what translates to "...department of the Luftwaffe".
A second look and my limited German would lead me to believe that it reads "Verkaufsabteilung der Luftwaffe", which would mean Sales department of the Luftwaffe, which makes some sense but doesn't seem so logical. L.V.A.- Luftwaffe VerkaufsAbteilung.
This jacket does however have one feature quite common to wartime used, privately procured, civilian leather jackets- shoulder pads!
That's something which adds to the look, along with the high cut armholes, skinny sleeves, tight chest and high waist.
I really don't think that jackets bought privately, by LW pilots, would have LW departmental labels in them, at all.
I could be wrong but it's a weird idea.
Back to Eastman:
http://www.eastmanleather.com/WWIILuft.htm
Look at their offering, then look at the accompanying wartime photos...
only one of them looks remotely like their "LW" jacket(and it's the ugliest of the lot).
Something silly about their LW jacket is that the side/slash/handwarmer pockets are not a LW pilot jacket feature-
not even a practicality- handwarmer pockets are for people who are walking, or doing something "casual"- a pilot would surely have zippered pockets, as you can see from many wartime photos. If there are side/slash pockets, they do tend to be zippered. Keeps the contents inside the pockets, you know.
I just realised that the Eastman "Luftwaffe WW1" and the "Brooklands Motoring Coat" are actually identical... no...
wait a minute... one's black, the other's brown. Sorry, my mistake.
Looking at their website, reading their copy is just annoying. So silly.
Get a copywriter!
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johnnyjohnny
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a RoSe may be a RoSE...not so for the LuFTWaFFe
point well taken mr. beLLytank...i must admit i did not get the eastman hartmann as i like a lower waisted jacket, and less of a biG fLoppy collar...and to have those customizations would have taken me to a price level worthy of a used transportation vehicle
aero made the length, collar, and other customizations at no price (aMazing), so that jacket will cost about half what an eastman would
but to your specific point of there being no true replica maker out there, i did try some of the other lower price replicas, including noble haus (seller on ebay under secret.society i think)...when i got it, it was of the quality you'd get off the wilson's clearance rack...well enough, but not as a replica...
so i had a sneaking suspicion that a true replica could never be had, so i decided to get something that was indeed reaL, a current motorcycle jacket that was remarkably like the hartmann (and a lot of luftwaffe ww2 jackets i have seen in old pix) that was not a pretender, and get it with the available options that came as close to the ww2 luftwaffe jacket as possible...
so, i'm not trying for a replica, but rather a modern version jacket that comes as close as possible to the classic luftwaffe jacket (or what has become the icon for it)...
so with that goal, there is no way i can fail on this...it would indeed be horrible to spend a grand on something thinking it's totally accurate, and it isn't, and almost can't be (as you've made a case)...so better to accept that one is getting a modern jacket, with a very classic look...which is why i decided to go the aero route in the first place
as for 30s motorcycle jackets, indeed, the highwayman does not look like them very much, after viewing your link...and definitely not those button job motorcycle jackets, which look like something from the civil war
to finish then, this conundrum with replications is perhaps why i've never really gotten them in the a-2...both expense, and the points discussed here, have led me to buy the reaL, actuaL post war ('87 and later) milspec a-2s...they are real, made for military use, and don't have to try to look like something they are replicating, tho obviously they follow (some better than others) the ww2 look...
i certainly wouldn't buy an LLbean a-2, as nice but inaccurate as they are to even the current issue a-2s...nor even many of the schott's that have several back panels and such...though i crave the actual milspec schott's that are out there, as they are quite rare...i do have a few of them, alas they are not my size (wahhhhhhhh)...
one question i do have though, is, with all the variations in a-2 design not only over the years, but during ww2, and then again post war milspec versions, etc...hOW has the g-1 jacket been able to remain extremely stable in design from one manufacturer to the next? all manufacturers can pretty much agree on what one of these fine jackets is supposed to look like...how did that happen with the g-1 and not the a-2? is it because the g-1 came along a bit later, or was only meant for one branch of service?
love to hear if you have any ideaz
johnnyjohnny
point well taken mr. beLLytank...i must admit i did not get the eastman hartmann as i like a lower waisted jacket, and less of a biG fLoppy collar...and to have those customizations would have taken me to a price level worthy of a used transportation vehicle
aero made the length, collar, and other customizations at no price (aMazing), so that jacket will cost about half what an eastman would
but to your specific point of there being no true replica maker out there, i did try some of the other lower price replicas, including noble haus (seller on ebay under secret.society i think)...when i got it, it was of the quality you'd get off the wilson's clearance rack...well enough, but not as a replica...
so i had a sneaking suspicion that a true replica could never be had, so i decided to get something that was indeed reaL, a current motorcycle jacket that was remarkably like the hartmann (and a lot of luftwaffe ww2 jackets i have seen in old pix) that was not a pretender, and get it with the available options that came as close to the ww2 luftwaffe jacket as possible...
so, i'm not trying for a replica, but rather a modern version jacket that comes as close as possible to the classic luftwaffe jacket (or what has become the icon for it)...
so with that goal, there is no way i can fail on this...it would indeed be horrible to spend a grand on something thinking it's totally accurate, and it isn't, and almost can't be (as you've made a case)...so better to accept that one is getting a modern jacket, with a very classic look...which is why i decided to go the aero route in the first place
as for 30s motorcycle jackets, indeed, the highwayman does not look like them very much, after viewing your link...and definitely not those button job motorcycle jackets, which look like something from the civil war
to finish then, this conundrum with replications is perhaps why i've never really gotten them in the a-2...both expense, and the points discussed here, have led me to buy the reaL, actuaL post war ('87 and later) milspec a-2s...they are real, made for military use, and don't have to try to look like something they are replicating, tho obviously they follow (some better than others) the ww2 look...
i certainly wouldn't buy an LLbean a-2, as nice but inaccurate as they are to even the current issue a-2s...nor even many of the schott's that have several back panels and such...though i crave the actual milspec schott's that are out there, as they are quite rare...i do have a few of them, alas they are not my size (wahhhhhhhh)...
one question i do have though, is, with all the variations in a-2 design not only over the years, but during ww2, and then again post war milspec versions, etc...hOW has the g-1 jacket been able to remain extremely stable in design from one manufacturer to the next? all manufacturers can pretty much agree on what one of these fine jackets is supposed to look like...how did that happen with the g-1 and not the a-2? is it because the g-1 came along a bit later, or was only meant for one branch of service?
love to hear if you have any ideaz
johnnyjohnny
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johnnyjohnny said:
If you follow the evolution of the M422 from the late 1930s to the 1970s (G1)there are variations in style, materials used etc. The shape of the pocket flaps changed as did the leather (from goat to cow), lining etc....So I'm not sure how stable the G1 actually was in design. There were also many variations between the G1s of different makers.
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a G-1 is a G-1 is a ...
thanks for the points...it does still seem that the variations aren't anywhere near what the a-2 disparities are...i do notice many of the 'korean' war era g-1s (or are these MA's?) have smaller fur collars...but the vietnam era g-1s and the ww2 g-1s, and the current day ones, all seem to be pretty close to each other...or at least not as far apart in element styling as the muLtivarious a-2s...
but now i must admit ignorance (and it's pretty apparent i'm sure) as to the difference between an MA and g-1...
always learning
johnnyjohnny
thanks for the points...it does still seem that the variations aren't anywhere near what the a-2 disparities are...i do notice many of the 'korean' war era g-1s (or are these MA's?) have smaller fur collars...but the vietnam era g-1s and the ww2 g-1s, and the current day ones, all seem to be pretty close to each other...or at least not as far apart in element styling as the muLtivarious a-2s...
but now i must admit ignorance (and it's pretty apparent i'm sure) as to the difference between an MA and g-1...
always learning
johnnyjohnny
BellyTank
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Maybe the differences/variations in the "G-1"s are not as apparent as those in A-2s but I'm quite sure they're actually there. Collar shape and size, pocket shape, size and position, etc. Maybe there's just more talking done about A-2s, than G-1s...
The A-2 went out of service for a long while and was re-introduced to the military but in a different cut, as you know.
I don't like it.
Re: the/your Luftwaffe jacket:
Now I am beginning to understand what you are creating.
B
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The A-2 went out of service for a long while and was re-introduced to the military but in a different cut, as you know.
I don't like it.
Re: the/your Luftwaffe jacket:
Now I am beginning to understand what you are creating.
B
T
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