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LUFTWAFFE jackets - Eagles who Dare to Wear..!

Edward

Bartender
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25,081
Location
London, UK
Interesting discussion... this is the kind of thing I learn so much from on here: intelligent debate about the realities of repros, as opposed to childish carping about "the real thing." Good work, gentlemen! :)

I've had half a lazy eye on the Luftwaffe jackets myself for a long time - actually, much longer than I have the allied jackets (a more recent interest). It seems to me that, yes, given the pp nature of Luftwaffe jackets for most of the war (and even later in the war, those that were issued were all of the shearling type, yes?), it is pretty much impossible to do other than to create a generic style. To the untrained eye, such as my own, the likes of the Highwayman fall into that generic bracket (c/f comparing an ALC and an ELC Battle of Britain model Irvin), although I'm sure there are plenty of smaller details that the likes of BT and the Baron, among others, will spot. Clearly a reproduction of a specific pilot's jacket, such as the Hartmann, has much more chance of being authentic as there is a clear set of "specs" to shoot for - replicating something actual rather than a period jacket that "is along the lines of what the LW might have worn." I'd love a Hartmann in black, myself.... maybe one day.

I suspect, too, that another reason there doesn't seem to have been the same level of repro effort here is the same old 'Nazi' thing - all Luftwaffe being popularly perceived as "Nazis," and not many people nowadays being so keen to seek out and wear what they consider to be "Nazi" clothes, either because of their own negative perceptions, or those of others (wouldn't be the first time I got "oi, Nazi!" shouted at me by maurauding teens for wearing a black leather trench coat).

BT.... you're obviously a lot more knowledgeable than many in these parts when it comes to the minor details of European leather jackets of the mid 20th century period - what would you consider to be the signature detail points of the European jackets that the Luftwaffe tend to be wearing in period photos - collar shape? shoulder yoke detail in the back (I seem to think of continental European jackets as being much more curved rather than straight - am I wrong in that?)? It looks to me in photos of the Luftwaffe as if their jackets quite commonly sit atop the trouser waistband rather than coming down just over it (as on an A2)? Is that what you mean by the 'high waist' tendency?
 
John Lever said:
IMGP0939.jpg

This is one of the greatest i've ever seen. I love the double diagonal buttoned style (I know BT has/had one or more). Oh, to get a hold of one! There is one - more like the brown one you also posted - in my size in a store in London, but at £500 i struggle to afford it. Maybe i should just save up.

bk
 

John Lever

One Too Many
Messages
1,820
Location
Southern England
Baron Kurtz said:
This is one of the greatest i've ever seen. I love the double diagonal buttoned style (I know BT has/had one or more). Oh, to get a hold of one! There is one - more like the brown one you also posted - in my size in a store in London, but at £500 i struggle to afford it. Maybe i should just save up.

bk
Thanks for the kind comment about my jacket. An acquaintance from Berlin gave it to me as an example of how 1930's jackets were made.. The jacket is completely rotten and stinks to high heaven. It's also very small, about a size 34/36. The good news is that some Scots friends of mine are going to make one for me....
John
 

BellyTank

I'll Lock Up
Edward-

The jackets that John Lever posted, or similar styles at least-
the DB buttoning style, with 2 rows buttons and preferably a collar- they carry a very 1939 Teutonic Knight style in my mind- an older, '20s/'30s style carried forward into the early years of the War. Old-school. Buttons and pockets all over the show.
The "Hartmann", or "French Cycling jacket" style, in contrast, which seemed very popular and was definitely very stylish, seems to afford a more modern look, cleaner line, central zip, minimalistic, even though they date from the '30s.
Maybe French style compared to German, of the same era.
The æsthetic of this jacket, small fitting, worn in combination with the "Channel trousers", almost Luftwaffe "bondage pants" is a classic- short waisted, tight jacket, barely covering the top of the high waisted trousers, with a long, visible fly zip, big pockets and the legs tapering to the ankle. Combined with a jaunty LW cap and LW flight boots, this makes a very cool image... of which I can't find a photo right now.

I think the assumption with the "French Cycling Jacket" is hat it's a motorcycle jacket but I believe it is a Cycling jacket, the push bike variety.

Edward, Google up some images if you can.....

Sometimes the things that typify a privately purchased wartime LW jacket can be a little vague and of course there were many different styles but if I had to try and categorise what I have seen, I would say:1) the DB style with 2 rows of buttons, 6, 8, or more buttons, sometimes zip pockets, sometimes 4 buttoning pockets, quite often a scalloped back yoke and sometimes at the front, back can be multi piece but not for the sake of economy, rather for style, back panel, which curves in from the armpit, narrowing down toward the waist, usually short waisted. 2) the Hartmann/Cycle jacket style, short waisted, side buckles over a side vent, front fastening clasp type buckle, central zip, 2 horizontal zip chest pockets and 2 concealed lower pockets with small buttoning flaps, very close to the bottom of the jacket, 1 piece back.
3) jackets which appear a little more contemporary in appearance, not so "classic", similar to the Eastman LW jacket.

Of course there are endless variations and mixtures of all of them all.
I have looked on German eBay, there are usually a multitude of faked-up jackets, ones which are apparently post-war but of course, in some cases it's difficult to prove the inauthenticity. But usually the vendors post a lot of wartime pilot images alongside their auction piece- usually a lot of the short DB style but I can't find any today.

The jackets were normally slim fitting and short, worn in warmer weather, with a shirt and tie. Slim fitting, short-waisted, very skinny arms, zips at the wrist-
mostly pretty cool looking.

This eBay item is a nice example of the "Hartmann" style:
#180255109929

This eBay item is a nice example of the double breasted style: #250253872836

I have a folder somewhere on this laptop, with lots of photos but I haven't found it yet- here are some to be going on with...

Hans-JoachimMarseillewithoneofhiski.jpg

Old school jacket on Hans Joachim Marseille, the Star of Afrika and Jeremy Irons in a past life.

hansjoachimmarseillem.jpg

Same guy, same day.

marseille.jpg

Closer.

hartmann44.jpg

Hartmann in an issue cloth flight jacket.

HartmannMertians.jpg

The classic Hartmann. This is the Cycling/Hartmann jacket style.


LuftwaffepilootMe109G-6.jpg

Short, tight, skinny sleeves and Channel suit trousers. The classic look.
This is the Cycling/Hartmann jacket style again.


LuftwaffepilootMe109G-62.jpg

More of it.

LuftwaffepilootMe109G-63.jpg

Even more of the look.

Two_pilots_wevelghem.jpg

Issue jacket and Channel pants.

Werner_Moelders2.jpg

Short skinny with diagonal pockets/zips, service breeches and trousers.


Needs to be edited and corrected.
Will when I can...


B
T
 

John Lever

One Too Many
Messages
1,820
Location
Southern England
BellyTank said:
Is it yours, John?
Aero?

Very good indeed.


B
T
No it's not mine or Aero. I really liked this one but had slight reservations about the padding and the epaulettes. I let it go for £125. Shame as I deeply regret it now.
John
 

BellyTank

I'll Lock Up
Bugger!

Who made it?
Where'd it come from?

I very nearly bought a beautiful vintage German bike jacket from Aero, about 7 years ago- it had the braided epaulets, lots of zips, with leather pulls and it was brown. More like a "biker" biker jacket than the one pictured in your last post.
Too small, however. Bugger!


B
T
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
25,081
Location
London, UK
John: the one that got away, eh?

Belly Tank - thanks so much for your post - I'm a lot clearer now about the LW pp styles. Really are gorgeous jackets - and definitely, the look of one of those over a shirt and tie is very sharp indeed. I've worn my AN6552 that way before now and it works really well - nice alternative to a suit or blazer for those spring days at work when an outercoat is necessary, but too much on top of a jacket. I do like the button styles very much - I agree that they're reminiscent of a much earlier military styling, Napoleonic period.

Love the look of the cloth issue jackets too - a reproduction of one of those would be a great Summer jacket.
 

johnnyjohnny

Practically Family
Messages
633
Location
lake balboa
aHHHHHH, Auld Lang Syne!!!!!!!

wow mr. beLLyTank! what a treasure trove of pix!

certainly proves that there was no one style of the ww2 luftwaffe jacket, but definitely what was in fact out there, as multivariated as they were...

as for jans joachim marseille, i believe he predated jeremy irons, though maybe irons was him in a former life...

but these jackets...on a nice summer day, they just make me want to get in my stuka junkers ju 87, fly up into the blue, and dive bomb a small spanish town...

johnnyjohnny

(i realize the style of these are all so mezmerizing, and i fall prey to the spell most of all people...but i do have to remember it's the style, not substance, looking at the great romantic pix mr. bellytank took the time to find...and looking at the pix of our paL jans, smiling as they put a kill on his plane tail, you wonder who went down for that mark...and remember that these guys warmed up in spain...the classic picture of the other side of the coin being picasso's guernica...alas, it sometimes makes me wonder, how i am so drawn to the styles of the dark side, but a flame in the back of my mind is always aware that it was the dark side...still kudos for the great, and fascinating, research work)
 

BellyTank

I'll Lock Up
Well, it's only "a style" of jacket- it's just that we don't have any photographic resources for '30s and '40s German and French leather jacket wearers, apart from the boys, above- well, not easily found.

War is evil, people adapt to the necessity of killing.
People of all nations and beliefs.

I realise that Mr. Hans J. Marseille pred-dates Mr. J. Irons but thanks for pointing that out to those too young to know.
There is a web page devoted to the former life of Mr. Irons as HJM.

What I notice about all but a few of these "LW" jackets is that they're so darned cool- in my idea of cool and it's not the military "side" of it that appeals but the military aspect did bring about many eclectic pieces and combinations of clothing and styling that we would not have seen otherwise.
German Submariners had even more dress quirks and would pretty much wear what they desired, when on a mission at sea.


B
T
 

johnnyjohnny

Practically Family
Messages
633
Location
lake balboa
pLeeeeeeeeeeZE!

not to get political, but rather from purely a technical standpoint:

Technically this is political and unwanted here. Feraud

as for jeremy irons and Hans-Joachim Marseille, irons was born 6 years after marseille...the more accepted reincarnation cycles are in fact in the range of 7 years...

now, what my briLL bros. a-2 jacket was in a past life...i cannot really say, but i'll be consulting a psychic later this week...karma being what it is, could be sTaLin

as always,
johnnyjohnny
 

BellyTank

I'll Lock Up
johnnyjohnny said:
always interesting information from you mr. bellytank...

now here's some interesting news for you that shows how on track you are...there are theories on the net that jeremy irons was perhaps a reincarnation of HaNs...to wit:

http://www.geocities.com/vienna/5373/esoteric/jeremy-irons-theory.htm

tah for now
johnnyjohnny

Spooky...
and from my post, before yours:


Bellytank said:
There is a web page devoted to the former life of Mr. Irons as HJM.

What a coincidence.



B
T
 

johnnyjohnny

Practically Family
Messages
633
Location
lake balboa
DaS JaCKeTS

very nice arado, and it's fascinating the resurgence in interest in the ww2 luftwaffe jacket styles...(hmmm, wonder if jeremy irons has one)...

resurgence...hmmm, i think this is just a surgence (uh, surge)...from what i've seen out there past and present, i don't think any companies up until the last five years, and increasingly now, have gotten into the ww2 luftwaffens

what was out there that most came close to the ww2 luftwaffe classic hartmann style was pretty much a classic middle-zip style motorcycle jacket that is very close to some versions of the aero highwayman......which, interestingly enough, are about the spittin image of what the 1969 movie 'battle of britain' used for luftwaffe jackets, a jacket they bought from lewis leathers at the time, and which lewis still makes:

http://www.hi-starclassics.co.uk/Jackets/Lewis Leathers/corsair b 140205.JPG

hollywood's version of things is usually not too authentic (like the cgi zeroes in 'pearl harbor', and question still open re the eastman a-2s in that bomb of a flick)...however, the lewis corsair is a classic motorcycle jacket look going back to the 40s, pretty close (i think) to what luftwaffe pilots bought as the most iconic of their private purchase jackets...

as i patrolled ebay last night i lucked into finding a schott horsehide that was this basic style, one which normally goes for $600 on the schott site:

http://www.schottnyc.com/images/525x550/689hblkfrt.jpg

i picked it up this morning, slightly used on ebay for $150

http://i9.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/fa/83/e5ef_1.JPG

now all i need is a messerschmitt

johnnyjohnny
 

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