Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Tomasso]

These constant calls to close threads simply because one grows tired of the subject is actually more irritating than the mundane and redundant subjects themselves.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

These constant calls to close threads simply because one grows tired of the subject is actually more irritating than the mundane and redundant subjects themselves.

Agreed. I've never understood this type of complaining. It's like when people threaten "I'm going to put you on ignore!'. Umm...so you mean to tell me you don't have the WILLPOWER to just ignore the poster on your own?


Don't like the thread? Fine. There are a gazillion other threads that you can peruse.

 

[facade]

These constant calls to close threads simply because one grows tired of the subject is actually more irritating than the mundane and redundant subjects themselves.

Amen... I thought this was a discussion forum not a library. Otherwise might as well close all threads and be done with it since pretty much everything has already been covered before.

 

[ManofKent]

Agreed. I've never understood this type of complaining. It's like when people threaten "I'm going to put you on ignore!'. Umm...so you mean to tell me you don't have the WILLPOWER to just ignore the poster on your own?


Don't like the thread? Fine. There are a gazillion other threads that you can peruse.

I would never suggest closing a thread simply because the discussion has been repeated many times before, but when the civility of the forum (one of the great things about this place) is threatened by personal attacks then I think the bartenders should be allowed to make a judgement call on closing a topic of conversation, in the same way that the site owners don't wish to see overtly religious or political discussions. Sadly some subjects seem to lead to the "I'm right therefore you are an ignorant idiot" level of discussion.

Rusty did close this thread at one point, presumably he decided to delete offending posts and re-open it instead.

I want to post in a place where civil discussion takes place. I've left forums before where an 'anything goes' attitude led to threads becoming meaningless fights over personal beliefs. If this place became like that I'd exercise my willpower to find another forum.

 

[facade]

I would never suggest closing a thread simply because the discussion has been repeated many times before, but when the civility of the forum (one of the great things about this place) is threatened by personal attacks then I think the bartenders should be allowed to make a judgement call on closing a topic of conversation, in the same way that the site owners don't wish to see overtly religious or political discussions. Sadly some subjects seem to lead to the "I'm right therefore you are an ignorant idiot" level of discussion.

Rusty did close this thread at one point, presumably he decided to delete offending posts and re-open it instead.

I want to post in a place where civil discussion takes place. I've left forums before where an 'anything goes' attitude led to threads becoming meaningless fights over personal beliefs. If this place became like that I'd exercise my willpower to find another forum.

I would love to find a place that is limited to civil discourse. Does such a place actually exist on the internet? I think not. It is simply a fact of life that people argue they get defensive and in so doing usually resort to personal attacks of one sort or another. That is what our culture teaches and in truth it is much easier to "win" an argument by attacking the person rather than their ideas. If you paint a person as an idiot/racist/extremist then you can dismiss anything they say out of hand and many people will follow suit. Winning an intellectual discussion is much harder because ideas are never 100% right or wrong. So to have any form of discussion, you have to accept there will be some rancor. Otherwise we are left with nothing but "nice hat" threads.

The Bartenders are there to moderate, it would be best if we left the job to them. They don't need the 'helpful' lock this thread posts anymore then the rest of us do.

 

[hatguy1]

I would never suggest closing a thread simply because the discussion has been repeated many times before, but when the civility of the forum (one of the great things about this place) is threatened by personal attacks then I think the bartenders should be allowed to make a judgement call on closing a topic of conversation, in the same way that the site owners don't wish to see overtly religious or political discussions. Sadly some subjects seem to lead to the "I'm right therefore you are an ignorant idiot" level of discussion.

Rusty did close this thread at one point, presumably he decided to delete offending posts and re-open it instead.

I want to post in a place where civil discussion takes place. I've left forums before where an 'anything goes' attitude led to threads becoming meaningless fights over personal beliefs. If this place became like that I'd exercise my willpower to find another forum.

+1 !!! Well said, sir.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fedoracentric]

Agreed. I've never understood this type of complaining. It's like when people threaten "I'm going to put you on ignore!'. Umm...so you mean to tell me you don't have the WILLPOWER to just ignore the poster on your own?


Don't like the thread? Fine. There are a gazillion other threads that you can peruse.

Hear, hear and well said.

But some people are more interested in controlling others, I guess. Most people who live in western democracies oppose that lack of freedom, but not all, apparently, as we can see.

 

[alanfgag]

The problem for me is not the content or the tone but the din of noise around an old, much discussed topic that takes up space and energy, pushes interesting threads into the background, pushes long tenured members away and in general buries the wealth of information stored on the lounge further down into the dust.

 

[ManofKent]

I would love to find a place that is limited to civil discourse. Does such a place actually exist on the internet? I think not. It is simply a fact of life that people argue they get defensive and in so doing usually resort to personal attacks of one sort or another. That is what our culture teaches and in truth it is much easier to "win" an argument by attacking the person rather than their ideas. If you paint a person as an idiot/racist/extremist then you can dismiss anything they say out of hand and many people will follow suit. Winning an intellectual discussion is much harder because ideas are never 100% right or wrong. So to have any form of discussion, you have to accept there will be some rancor. Otherwise we are left with nothing but "nice hat" threads.

There's generally very little rancor on this forum, and it is predominantly civil discourse. I don't accept that personal attacks are inevitable, but for some reason this thread seems to have attracted them. I've been on internet forums since before they had pictures, and yes some have degenerated into personal attacks but there are quite a few out there where the tone is generally friendly and discussion avoids snide remarks.

You're right though - it's for the bartenders to decide when a thread is degenerating, and for whatever reason, Rusty re-opened it and I respect that decision. I'd hate to be a bartender.

Hear, hear and well said.

But some people are more interested in controlling others, I guess. Most people who live in western democracies oppose that lack of freedom, but not all, apparently, as we can see.

Personally I am quite comfortable with a private forum having rules regarding topics of conversation, just as my local public house won't tolerate swearing or abusive language. I don't have a problem with existence of bars where anything goes, but you won't find me drinking in them. There is big difference in believing in freedom of speech as a principal, and wanting a private forum to remain civil. I like forums where discussion is held without personal attack, or snide asides, as I believe do most members. Personally I think this thread has in some posts at least bordered on the personal. Perhaps I am being over sensitive.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

Honestly, I would feel bad if I had started a thread that denigrated into nothing more than a flame war. I try very hard to make sure that my posts and topics of conversation, no matter how touchy of a subject, are presented in as civil of a manner as possible. Having been drawn into a flame war long ago when I was relatively new to message board forums, I have made a personal point of being vigilant against participating in anything becoming more of a fight than a discussion. That said, if this thread was ever locked, it couldn't have been for very long, because I have had updates coming in regularly since I started it. There were a couple people who started sniping at each other over a disagreement that really wasn't related to the thread topic. They were asked to stop a few times and eventually did. There have also been a few instances of people making rude personal observations about each other that haven't led to further back-and-forth, which we could all do without. The primary topic of the thread may be a repeated notion, but it clearly is not a dead issue, since so many people have wanted to participate, and my goal in bringing it up was to have a philosophical discussion about the underlying related issues, not to have a yes or no answer to the surface question. Philosophical discussions are never completely done, because they are enriched by every new perspective brought into them. Anyway, as is mostly clear by the decline of participation, this thread is dying down, so there really isn't any need for someone to lock it. If we are done talking about the subject, the thread will die on its own, and be replaced by new ones. If there is more to be said, let's have it out, then. Everyone has the ability to unsubscribe from any thread they don't want to follow. If you really find it such a boring subject and have said everything you want to say, why not unsubscribe and stop participating. Enough people do that and it will go away from the top of the list. Sound fair?

 

[fedoracentric]

With Shadomega's last post, we must now veer off into the deep philosophical subject of "are paragraph breaks dead"?
Ha, I kid because I love.

 

[HudsonHawk]

If we are done talking about the subject, the thread will die on its own, and be replaced by new ones. If there is more to be said, let's have it out, then.

But people don't want to "have it out". That requires disagreement, which is generally frowned upon around here. Even you suggested people were getting "snippy" just because there was a philosophical disagreement, suggesting some personal disapproval, when, as one of those participants, I can assure you was far from the truth. This phenomenon is not unique to this thread. There is a general call for shutting down debate. That's just the tone of the FL.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

With Shadomega's last post, we must now veer off into the deep philosophical subject of "are paragraph breaks dead"?
Ha, I kid because I love.

Ha ha! Good one! I must confess, my posts lack proper paragraph settings because I usually don't intend on saying more than a couple sentences. After revising a few times, I don't take the time to then break it up. I shall make a stronger effort to in the future.

But people don't want to "have it out". That requires disagreement, which is generally frowned upon around here. Even you suggested people were getting "snippy" just because there was a philosophical disagreement, suggesting some personal disapproval, when, as one of those participants, I can assure you was far from the truth. This phenomenon is not unique to this thread. There is a general call for shutting down debate. That's just the tone of the FL.

Sorry, HH, I wasn't saying either of you were being "snippy", I said there was "sniping" taking place, which is to say, personal jabs. That's a subtle difference, but it is a difference in my mind. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone was in a bad mood and looking to take offense, but that the disagreement was turning personal. I don't remember who started it, nor do I really care to remind myself, because it was getting unpleasant to watch. The only objections I had were that it wasn't remaining civil, and it really was off on a tangient from the purpose of the thread, going on about whether or not upward mobility is better or worse now. I can see how we got there from hat ettiquette, but it had travelled far enough that it wasn't really inline with the topic anymore.

Anyway, (look a new paragraph!!) to sum up, I've seen this same phenomenon elswhere too. People don't like a thread, so they call for it to get locked when it isn't out of control. As long as the thread can be kept within range of the topic it was started under, and the debates can be kept civil enough to not be a war, I think people should be free to work through things. That said, I think everyone needs to approach debate with a certain amount of humility or they will be unable to learn anything from the discourse.

Cheers everyone!

 

[HudsonHawk]

Sorry, HH, I wasn't saying either of you were being "snippy", I said there was "sniping" taking place, which is to say, personal jabs. That's a subtle difference, but it is a difference in my mind. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone was in a bad mood and looking to take offense, but that the disagreement was turning personal.

Sorry if I got the wrong word, but my point remains...it *wasn't* personal. Yet you (and many others) viewed it as such.

I don't remember who started it, nor do I really care to remind myself, because it was getting unpleasant to watch. The only objections I had were that it wasn't remaining civil, and it really was off on a tangient from the purpose of the thread, going on about whether or not upward mobility is better or worse now. I can see how we got there from hat ettiquette, but it had travelled far enough that it wasn't really inline with the topic anymore.

Yes, the topic wandered. They tend to do that with open ended questions, such as the one you asked. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it wasn't civil. But again, that's the natural reaction around here to any disagreement. It's just the way this forum is wired.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I would never suggest closing a thread simply because the discussion has been repeated many times before, but when the civility of the forum (one of the great things about this place) is threatened by personal attacks then I think the bartenders should be allowed to make a judgement call on closing a topic of conversation, in the same way that the site owners don't wish to see overtly religious or political discussions. Sadly some subjects seem to lead to the "I'm right therefore you are an ignorant idiot" level of discussion.

Rusty did close this thread at one point, presumably he decided to delete offending posts and re-open it instead.

I want to post in a place where civil discussion takes place. I've left forums before where an 'anything goes' attitude led to threads becoming meaningless fights over personal beliefs. If this place became like that I'd exercise my willpower to find another forum.

Like fedoracentric, I just don't think that this thread has devolved into anything more than personal disagreements between the members.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Hear, hear and well said.

But some people are more interested in controlling others, I guess. Most people who live in western democracies oppose that lack of freedom, but not all, apparently, as we can see.

This is something I have noticed about just about every message board I've been on. I just never understood the need that some posters have for message board administrators to hold their hand in order to ignore a thread or other posters. There have been threads and people (on other forums) that I didn't care for so I just simply didn't click on the thread to read it or I just didn't converse with posters who I disliked. I didn't need an "ignore button" and I didn't need a virtual padlock to control an impulse to read a thread I didn't like....I was just able to do it myself. Again, not really talking about this forum just something I have noticed on a consistent basis since I have been on message boards for the last 10 years.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Let me add again, that I'm only speaking about message boards in general, not anyone participating in this thread. I do understand people not wanting a forum to deteriorate into a slug fest and I agree that moderators should take the necessary steps to prevent that.

 

[jlee562]

Sorry if I got the wrong word, but my point remains...it *wasn't* personal. Yet you (and many others) viewed it as such.



Yes, the topic wandered. They tend to do that with open ended questions, such as the one you asked. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it wasn't civil. But again, that's the natural reaction around here to any disagreement. It's just the way this forum is wired.

As the other participant, I must say at no point did I feel personally attacked by Hudson despite our disagreement. We're clearly two folks who enjoy the back and forth.

 

[fedoracentric]

Yup. There wasn't anything here that broke good manners, really.

But, I think the biggest problem is that the written word often has a problem easily delivering tone.

What one person felt he wrote breezily, others read as severe condemnation.

It's always been a problem with message boards. People are often all too willing to be outrageously outraged where it simply wasn't necessary.

But most importantly we all must remember this... it's just a message board. What one poster says has no actual influence in our lives. If CarmelSmoothie was mad at me, I'd still get paid at work, my kids would still love me (or at least as much as the did before--LOL), and my neighbors wouldn't disown me.

It-is-just-a-message-board.

I'd suggest if one is so aggrieved by what someone else is saying on a message board, then maybe a change of venue is apropos? Why let a mere message board wreck one's life?

Like Carmel said, just don't click on the thread if you are so upset over it all.

 

[HudsonHawk]

If CarmelSmoothie was mad at me, I'd still get paid at work, my kids would still love me (or at least as much as the did before--LOL), and my neighbors wouldn't disown me.

See, if she were made at me, I'm not sure I could stand it. I'd be on my knees, grovelling.