Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Mr Oldschool]

Sorry if I got the wrong word, but my point remains...it *wasn't* personal. Yet you (and many others) viewed it as such.



Yes, the topic wandered. They tend to do that with open ended questions, such as the one you asked. But I can't for the life of me figure out why you think it wasn't civil. But again, that's the natural reaction around here to any disagreement. It's just the way this forum is wired.

Can I just say, if memory serves, I believe I was more on your side of the disagreement, for what it's worth, and I'm not against you here. I believe you when you say you weren't making it personal; but, from the outside, it looked like an argument, it looked uncivil, and it was starting to look personal. I think it looked more like the other guy was taking offense and was coming back and challenging you on everything you said, but nobody was letting it go.

Part of the inherent problem with message boards is that word choice is almost all we have to go on to try to determine the tone or inflection meant by another person's post, and it is very easy for people to think that someone is insulting them when it couldn't be further from the truth. When I think someone is mistinterpreting something I've typed, because I care what other people think of me, I do what I can to back up and clarify.

In any case, the topic wandering a little is fine, but there was what looked like an argument over "whether young people have it easier now than they did in the Depression, and whether that is a valid thing to compare" in a thread asking "whether hat tipping is still practiced and what hat wearing means to the individual." A lot of people couldn't understand the relevance there. Personally, I just didn't want to get into the middle of it because the "let's agree to disagree" compromise wasn't working and nobody was coming together. Those sort of disagreements get messy. It's like when you watch two of your friends get in a fight with each other. It makes people uncomfortable to watch it.

Oh yeah, I also wanted to just clarify, when I said "have it out" I wasn't meaning like "duke it out", I meant to "talk it out". Perhaps I used the wrong phrase, I thought it meant the same thing. Sorry if I was wrong about that.

Does that cover everything?


EDIT:
And as usual, by the time I've written my response, everyone else has posted and made my statement irrelevant or redundant. In this case both. Okay, so neither of you took it personally. Good, glad to hear it! Really! As I said, it looked like it was getting bad. It looked like it was getting personal. The fact that it was very sharply back and forth with immediate responses that seemed to be picking each other apart were what made it look that way to me.

Kumbaya anyone?

 

[ManofKent]

CaramelSmoothie, JLee, Fedoracentric - I take your points on board and perhaps I read into some of the comments more than was intended. I've been using internet forums/message boards since 1989 and have seen so many boards that started as friendly healthy discussion venues slowly descend into the 'you're a fascist/racist/communist/nazi' exchanges or the playground 'some people' type comment places where established members leave and new members are put off joining that I've lost count. I like this place - and would hate it to descend to those levels. It's always a balance between members being adult enough to civilly address arguments rather than attacking individuals and moderators ensuring thar the level of debate doesn't sink to something resembling the UK Parliament...

As to the original question of 'Is hat etiquette obsolete' , my view is that like any form of social conduct it changes with the times and societal views. Condescension towards women is not appropriate these days, and I think we've moved on from any sense that unquestioning respect for government/national bodies is a given. I'm not sure the 'rules' of hat etiquette were ever as rigid as some of the 'etiquette' writers made them appear to be either - we can't rely on the written word of etiquette writers to get a full sense of the historical nuances across society.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

CaramelSmoothie, JLee, Fedoracentric - I take your points on board and perhaps I read into some of the comments more than was intended. I've been using internet forums/message boards since 1989 and have seen so many boards that started as friendly healthy discussion venues slowly descend into the 'you're a fascist/racist/communist/nazi' exchanges or the playground 'some people' type comment places where established members leave and new members are put off joining that I've lost count. I like this place - and would hate it to descend to those levels. It's always a balance between members being adult enough to civilly address arguments rather than attacking individuals and moderators ensuring thar the level of debate doesn't sink to something resembling the UK Parliament...

Unfortunately, I think we all have to some degree...

As to the original question of 'Is hat etiquette obsolete' , my view is that like any form of social conduct it changes with the times and societal views. Condescension towards women is not appropriate these days, and I think we've moved on from any sense that unquestioning respect for government/national bodies is a given. I'm not sure the 'rules' of hat etiquette were ever as rigid as some of the 'etiquette' writers made them appear to be either - we can't rely on the written word of etiquette writers to get a full sense of the historical nuances across society.

Very good points, particularly about the etiquette writers. Also, I think the introduction many of us had to hat ettiquette is probably from some adult yelling at us to take our hat off when we went inside as children. How much of that was adults keeping their kids/grandkids/students/whatever in line and how much was actual societal norms?

 

[Seb Lucas]

I dislike it when threads go right off tangent - it means having to wade through pages of irrelevant material to get to the actual information you are after. I rely on this place for clarification or information not personal views on a range of other subjects. Those discussions can be had anywhere. In fact we live in an era of inflated personal opinion and that stuff can stay on blogs or discussion sites. I don't get it when a thread about jackets becomes a thread about education standards or a thread about hats becomes something about economics. I think of this place as a venue to learn from collectors and appreciators of classic objects, not as a creaky showcase for undergraduate pontifications. I guess no one minds an aside or a witty related digression but a wholesale discussion on a subject different to the title of the thread doesn't belong and I endorse any mod taking a machete to that stuff and cutting it back. It shouldn't need locking up, however.

 

[facade]

I dislike it when threads go right off tangent - it means having to wade through pages of irrelevant material to get to the actual information you are after. I rely on this place for clarification or information not personal views on a range of other subjects. Those discussions can be had anywhere. In fact we live in an era of inflated personal opinion and that stuff can stay on blogs or discussion sites. I don't get it when a thread about jackets becomes a thread about education standards or a thread about hats becomes something about economics. I think of this place as a venue to learn from collectors and appreciators of classic objects, not as a creaky showcase for undergraduate pontifications. I guess no one minds an aside or a witty related digression but a wholesale discussion on a subject different to the title of the thread doesn't belong and I endorse any mod taking a machete to that stuff and cutting it back. It shouldn't need locking up, however.

I personally don't mind when topics wander but I can understand and respect your view. I would say its hard not to wander a bit, as evidence, your very post is off topic. In my opinion, it should be up to the person who starts the thread to determine how strictly the conversation stays on the original topic. But that's just my opinion. What I can not respect are those members who feel that since they've spent half their adult life here that gives them carte blanche to be rude dismissive jerks to those who don't share their opinions. (I am not suggesting this applies to you.)

 

[jlee562]

EDIT:
And as usual, by the time I've written my response, everyone else has posted and made my statement irrelevant or redundant. In this case both. Okay, so neither of you took it personally. Good, glad to hear it! Really! As I said, it looked like it was getting bad. It looked like it was getting personal. The fact that it was very sharply back and forth with immediate responses that seemed to be picking each other apart were what made it look that way to me.

Kumbaya anyone?

I'm an INTJ personality. One of my favorite quotes about INTJs: "Their way of showing that something you say (an idea, a suggestion) has potential or merit is by trying to pull it apart (which shocks those poor souls who instead expected awe or admiration). The ultimate INTJ insult to an idea or suggestion is to ignore it altogether, because that means it's not even interesting enough to deconstruct."

 

[fedoracentric]

As far as hat etiquette... goes.... LOOK A SQUIRREL!

 

[Mr Oldschool]

I'm an INTJ personality. One of my favorite quotes about INTJs: "Their way of showing that something you say (an idea, a suggestion) has potential or merit is by trying to pull it apart (which shocks those poor souls who instead expected awe or admiration). The ultimate INTJ insult to an idea or suggestion is to ignore it altogether, because that means it's not even interesting enough to deconstruct."

Good to know. I think I was an INFP, but it's been like twenty years or more since I took the Myers-Briggs tests. I don't know if I would answer the questions the same way now as I did then.

As far as hat etiquette... goes.... LOOK A SQUIRREL!

:eusa_clap

 

[Huertecilla]

It is very much main stream custom to state ´hats off to you´ or in several european areas a simple ´chapeau´ to express repsect, pay tribute to someone´s actions.

To mé this implicates that this core bit of hattiquette is there to stay for long time yet.

I have been going going a lot the past few days and wore my Glyn fedora.
Upon meeting with ´The Hat lady´ sunday I took off my hat in discreetly galllant manner and she just about swóóned óhhhh... that is éver so charming; men don´t do that anymore and it makes me feel so spécial´ with a beaming ´THÁNKS´and enthusiastic kiss. I was not taken aback but a bit surprised and she simply observed as matter of fact ´it is international day of the kiss!´.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

See, if she were made at me, I'm not sure I could stand it. I'd be on my knees, grovelling.

This made my day!

 

[Big Man]

As far as hat etiquette... goes.... LOOK A SQUIRREL!

Point well made.