Is chivalry dead?

[John in Covina]

Going Dutch is perfectly acceptable and we should thank the Dutch for inventing it.

 

[Treetopflyer]

I grew up in the Midwest where what some people would call chivalrous, we would call common courtesies. That does not seem to be the case so much anymore. I think the one thing that prevents a lot of young men from showing this side of them, is that in today’s day and age, young women do not like the “nice guy”. They want the “bad boy”, the project that they can work on and make better. It seems like it is not until later in life that most women appreciate the “nice guys” because they have come to the realization that they will never change the “bad boys”. I don’t think that Chivalry is dead, I think that it is just not stylish in the modern world thus not many practice it.

 

[sheeplady]

The idea of the guy paying as being "sexist" would honestly never occur to me. If the guy asked me out, then it's his treat, period. If anybody invites me somewhere, I understand it as being their treat, unless it's specifically stated that we're going dutch. If I invite somebody somewhere, then I pay. Simple, and no need for Ideology.

I see you don't know any radical feminists.

While I think that a knowledge of the history of dating and the man paying is important, I think that most young women were raised that the man shouldn't have to pay for everything, just like the woman shouldn't have to do all the housework. If you are raised to think this way, then a man insisting and not having his date ever pay, would likely be thought of as odd.

I do think it is a thing of respect that if someone says, "I would like to pay for this" and the other person says "I would like to pay" that some sort of arrangement is made so that both individuals can be respected. This could be dutch, it could be alternating, it could be anything, as long as both people have their wishes respected to the greatest degree possible.

 

[Puzzicato]

While I think that a knowledge of the history of dating and the man paying is important, I think that most young women were raised that the man shouldn't have to pay for everything, just like the woman shouldn't have to do all the housework. If you are raised to think this way, then a man insisting and not having his date ever pay, would likely be thought of as odd.

You've reminded me of an incident when I first started seeing my now-husband. I met him and his brother for a drink. He bought the first round, then I got up to get the second. His brother turned to him and said "Is something wrong? Why is she buying a drink?". I felt humiliated - like I had done something inappropriate, and my husband was also belittled. THAT is how the man paying can be sexist.

 

[Drappa]

I don't agree that it is simple at all to figure out who pays and that it is automatically who issued the invitation. It very much depends not only on gender, but on culture, age and social group. Growing up in Germany, whenever it was someone's birthday, the birthday person would invite their friends out for dinner and pay for everyone. When I moved to Canada I had some very awkward moments where friends would refuse to let me pay or tried to pay for me instead. I was very offended, as one friend actually went behind my back and tried to pay for part of it. Once I moved to the UK the rules changed again. We were invited to dinner at my husband's friends' house after we had invited them multiple times (and cooked three course meals). When we got there, they decided to order take-out, and expected us to pay for our share, but we had no cash on us. The rules have to be mutually understood for chivalry to work, and if they don't and are perceived as offensive/rude by the other party, it's not because everyone is politically correct or wants to be offended, it is because they just learned different rules.
That's not new though, that has been the same for thousands of years.
In a multi-cultural, multi-national world these things are never clear or simple, and it is quite easy to offend people, whether it's through sexism, lack of awareness or simply being rude.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I see you don't know any radical feminists.

And I've tried very hard to avoid knowing them, having read enough of their stuff to reject their worldview. If there's any one thing the world needs less of, it's dour, humorless identity-politics ideologues. If it makes the guy happy to pay for lunch, I just don't see the harm in letting him do it.

 

[sheeplady]

I felt humiliated - like I had done something inappropriate, and my husband was also belittled. THAT is how the man paying can be sexist.

There are so many ways he could have put that better, if he had to say something. Couldn't he have said, "You are our guest. Please let me treat for this round."?

One of my girl friends dated a man (shortly) who insisted that if she paid for something that she give him the money beforehand. As in, before they went into the restaurant he would ask her for the money, so he could hand it to the server and have the appearance of being the "man" and doing the "manly things he was supposed to do." So he had no problem with her spending her hard earned dollar, he just had a big problem with her actually paying for the check. He also evidentally had other issues, which substantiated that this behavior was not just embarrassment. (He also wasn't good at giving her back her change, either.)

And I've tried very hard to avoid knowing them, having read enough of their stuff to reject their worldview. If there's any one thing the world needs less of, it's dour, humorless identity-politics ideologues. If it makes the guy happy to pay for lunch, I just don't see the harm in letting him do it.

Well, my comment was meant a little tongue in cheek. I just don't see the harm in letting the gal pay for lunch either.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There are so many ways he could have put that better, if he had to say something. Couldn't he have said, "You are our guest. Please let me treat for this round."?

One of my girl friends dated a man (shortly) who insisted that if she paid for something that she give him the money beforehand. As in, before they went into the restaurant he would ask her for the money, so he could hand it to the server and have the appearance of being the "man" and doing the "manly things he was supposed to do." So he had no problem with her spending her hard earned dollar, he just had a big problem with her actually paying for the check. He also evidentally had other issues, which substantiated that this behavior was not just embarrassment. (He also wasn't good at giving her back her change, either.)



Well, my comment was meant a little tongue in cheek. I just don't see the harm in letting the gal pay for lunch either.

I'm all for letting someone else pay, myself. I'm poor.

But I think we can both agree that the lunch table itself isn't the time to make an issue of it -- nothing kills a pleasant, convivial occasion faster than a hectoring sociocultural lecture. Sometimes the real situational high road is to simply let the other person have their way.

 

[Puzzicato]

There are so many ways he could have put that better, if he had to say something. Couldn't he have said, "You are our guest. Please let me treat for this round."?

He could have, but having known him for more than 10 years now, I think he enjoyed bullying both Paul & me.

It sounds like a very good thing that your friend's relationship didn't last. He does NOT sound like a nice man.

 

[John in Covina]

Ladies, I can see now that the only appropriated response is to simply throw a drink in the man's face and storm out if he tries to pay for you. It's the only way to deal with such blatant sexism.

Or you can send him some type of rules packet like a pre-dating agreement so the guys can try to get it right. I don't know if it will add to the spontineity of dating but at least they won't try any inappropriate paying.:eeek:

 

[MikeBravo]

He could have, but having known him for more than 10 years now, I think he enjoyed bullying both Paul & me.

It sounds like a baptism of fire which you passed with flying colours!

 

[sheeplady]

Ladies, I can see now that the only appropriated response is to simply throw a drink in the man's face and storm out if he tries to pay for you. It's the only way to deal with such blatant sexism. :

I've always wanted to throw a drink. Never got any volunteers.

Or you can send him some type of rules packet like a pre-dating agreement so the guys can try to get it right. I don't know if it will add to the spontineity of dating but at least they won't try any inappropriate paying.:eeek

Well, now there are pre-nups, maybe pre-dates are the next thing? You should try to patent something, like a standard form.

 

[Pompidou]

The best time and way to work out the payment is when the bill arrives. Ideally, both parties reach for their wallets simultaneously. Most of the time I get to say, "It's okay, I've got it," and she says, "Okay, I'll get the next thing". That's the perfect situation in my opinion. It's funny - I love doing the paying, but I get skeptical about anyone who doesn't go through the motions. Even if the motion is just a bluff to keep face, which is easy enough to tell, that's good enough for me. I try to ensure that every good thing I do is a favor and not an obligation. That's the good thing about a culture without rules - every time you follow one, you're doing so because you want to do right - not because it's just what everyone does. I'm really conscious about that. Everything has to be a choice.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

I've noticed that on a second date, for which the lady has said she'd like to pay (having enjoyed our first meal I paid for), if you do let her pay there will be people who comment "what kind of gentleman are you letting the lady pay for you?"

It seems when I comes to ladies your damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Here's another example:

What do you call a lady when not using her name? When in a work situation if a man does something for which you want to congratulate him, you say "good man". What do you say to a lady? What about bar staff? You can call a man mate, pal, buddy, friend, young man, sir... etc. What's can you call a lady? Miss? Not if she's married. Ma'am? Depends on her age. And it's really hard when some ladies hate the word lady, some hate woman and most think girl is patronizing. The effort we have to go to in order to determine which words will offend which people is another reason chivalry is dying (imho).

 

[Pompidou]

I've noticed that on a second date, for which the lady has said she'd like to pay (having enjoyed our first meal I paid for), if you do let her pay there will be people who comment "what kind of gentleman are you letting the lady pay for you?"

It seems when I comes to ladies your damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Here's another example:

What do you call a lady when not using her name? When in a work situation if a man does something for which you want to congratulate him, you say "good man". What do you say to a lady? What about bar staff? You can call a man mate, pal, buddy, friend, young man, sir... etc. What's can you call a lady? Miss? Not if she's married. Ma'am? Depends on her age. And it's really hard when some ladies hate the word lady, some hate woman and most think girl is patronizing. The effort we have to go to in order to determine which words will offend which people is another reason chivalry is dying (imho).

These people you refer to in your first paragraph - I wouldn't take them seriously. How's that parable go? "Remove the beam from your eye before you worry about the splinter in mine"? Something like that. You're honoring an agreement with your date. That's worthy of praise in my book. Any old schmuck can earn a hundred bucks. Spending it is even easier. Upholding an agreement despite heckling of bystanders is real quality.

What do I call a lady when not using her name? I call her Um. It usually goes something like this:

Me: *Walks up to lady I don't know*
Me: "Hey, Um..."
Me: "Um..."
Me: *Taps on shoulder*
Me: "Hey, Um, you dropped your cell phone."
Her: "What?"
Me: "You dropped your phone."
Her: "Oh, thanks"
Me: "No problem."

Never even had to learn her name. I'd forget it anyway. I call everyone I don't know Um. Gender neutral and no thinking involved.

 

[Tomasso]

When extending an invitation to dine or travel (man or woman, business or social) I always include the words My Guest My Treat or On Me. We may eventually agree to other arrangements but I was raised to expect to pay when doing the inviting.

 

[SgtRick]

When extending an invitation to dine or travel (man or woman, business or social) I always include the words My Guest My Treat or On Me. We may eventually agree to other arrangements but I was raised to expect to pay when doing the inviting.

Sounds like a good rule of thumb.

 

[Edward]

I see you don't know any radical feminists.

While I think that a knowledge of the history of dating and the man paying is important, I think that most young women were raised that the man shouldn't have to pay for everything, just like the woman shouldn't have to do all the housework. If you are raised to think this way, then a man insisting and not having his date ever pay, would likely be thought of as odd.

I do think it is a thing of respect that if someone says, "I would like to pay for this" and the other person says "I would like to pay" that some sort of arrangement is made so that both individuals can be respected. This could be dutch, it could be alternating, it could be anything, as long as both people have their wishes respected to the greatest degree possible.

I should think it simple common sense also that while most women enjoy being treated like a lady, they equally often prefer to be treated as an individual rather than a socially-appointed gender role stereotype.

I've noticed that on a second date, for which the lady has said she'd like to pay (having enjoyed our first meal I paid for), if you do let her pay there will be people who comment "what kind of gentleman are you letting the lady pay for you?"

Such people are wholly entitled not only to their opinion, but also to the contempt which they so richly deserve.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

Thanks Edward, I agree. My missus loves chivalry but always offers to pay her own way because she was taught chivalry but has combined it with fairness and common decency. But loves it when none of the gents let her pay for drinks.

I always hold the door for whoever is behind me and although it hasn't happened in a while, every so often someone will say "being female isn't a disability". Like they think I'd have let the door slam in the face of a man. Has anyone got a good response which expose their presumption that it's because they're female?

 

[rue]

Here's another example:

What do you call a lady when not using her name? When in a work situation if a man does something for which you want to congratulate him, you say "good man". What do you say to a lady? What about bar staff? You can call a man mate, pal, buddy, friend, young man, sir... etc. What's can you call a lady? Miss? Not if she's married. Ma'am? Depends on her age. And it's really hard when some ladies hate the word lady, some hate woman and most think girl is patronizing. The effort we have to go to in order to determine which words will offend which people is another reason chivalry is dying (imho).

In my experience, in the southern US and in the midwest states close to them, ma'am is used for every female over the age of eighteen if you don't know them and if you do know them Miss goes in front of their first name (Miss Rue for example). I'm not sure what they say in the east, but in the west, it seems to be "hey you"

I have no idea what you would use in a work situation.