IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[aswatland]

Andrew,

Can I point out that the date in a patent number does not indicate the year of manufacture of the object (Mick Prodger makes this mistake) but the year in which the original patent was granted? Until 1995 this was 15 years.

Also, do you have any documentary evidence that the two numbers after IAC on a label refer to an abbreviated date?

Alan

Alan, I have never stated the patent number indicates the date of manufacture of an object! It is when the patent is registered! There is no documentary evidence about the stamped numbers on Irvin labels. Of course the 33 may not be the date. It might stand for batch number?

What we do know is that by 1935 IAC printed a contract date on their jacket labels and dispensed with a printed stamp. 471922/35 is on Paddy's mid '30s jacket along with the Patent no-407405/32. The 35 here is the date of the contract, although no necessarily the date of the jacket and the 32 is the date the patent was issued. Here's the label:

And here is the earlier label on my jacket, which is the same as the one from the 1932 Irvin in Prodger's book. Prodger's label has a blank rectangle where the stamp would go.

I have seen later IAC jackets with the rectangle stamped with a number which is not the date as the example from a 1941 jacket below shows.

If one discounts the 33 on the label I would still say that judging by the colour of the jacket, the zips and their leather pulls, the thin seam tapes and the style of label it is an early Irvin, dating from the period 1933-5. Of course I may be wrong!

 

[Alan Eardley]

Alan, I have never stated the patent number indicates the date of manufacture of an object! It is when the patent is registered! There is no documentary evidence about the stamped numbers on Irvin labels. Of course the 33 may not be the date. It might stand for batch number?

Fair enough, so you haven't. I suspect the IAC number does represent a batch, or even a production department, in other words production data of some sort. As you show below, there are similar IAC number stamps that are well outside the known range of jacket dates.

What we do know is that by 1935 IAC printed a contract date on their jacket labels and dispensed with a printed stamp. 471922/35 is on Paddy's mid '30s jacket along with the Patent no-407405/32. The 35 here is the date of the contract, although no necessarily the date of the jacket and the 32 is the date the patent was issued. Here's the label:

Yes, the very early jacket that I posted about some time ago had a virtually identical label to Paddy's but with a 1933 contract date next to the 1932 patent, so this format was already established by 1935. Interestingly, that jacket has two labels - one that appears to be civilian and the other an AM label like Paddy's. It's tempting to construe that this was from a civilian IAC flying suit that was then labelled as part of an early AM contract. As you point out, a contract may have tajen more than a year to complete, so the contract date isn't necessarily the date of manufacture either

I have seen later IAC jackets with the rectangle stamped with a number which is not the date as the example from a 1941 jacket below shows.

See comment above.

If one discounts the 33 on the label I would still say that judging by the colour of the jacket, the zips and their leather pulls, the thin seam tapes and the style of label it is an early Irvin, dating from the period 1933-5. Of course I may be wrong!

OK, fair enough!

 

[aswatland]

OK, fair enough!

Thanks for the academic discussion Alan.

 

[aswatland]

Seeing as it is Halloween soon,i decided to take a few pictures of the Dreaded Reeking Halloween Horror Itself
This is the irvin flying jacket i bought on ebay a few days ago.it is not in the greatest condition,due to the previous owner rubbing gun oil into the leather.there is a big tear under the arm,the belt and the zips have been replaced by later versions and the sheepskin on the collar is pretty badly worn now,as is the sheepskin on the sleeve cuffs.

I was wondering how you are going to get the Irvin restored? Are you planning to do it yourself or get Aero Leather or another outfit to do it for you?

 

[blacklagoon]

Theo Sturge

Hi Andrew.
I have been reading what has been written by everyone,and been engrossed in what to do.I have been searching for leather restorers etc on the net.there is a farrier who has just started up in my area,but i do not know if he can do jackets.
Out of the blue,i came across a gentleman called Theo Sturge,who is a professional restorer,and works alongside the national trust,historic house association,museums etc.i will post you a link to his site,and,a link to nothing more,than a reconditioned b3 flying jacket he has restored.

site link: http://www.leatherconservation.co.uk/

b3 jacket link: http://www.leatherconservation.co.uk/USAF leather jacket restoration.htm

Hopefully,he will consider taking on the job.I have just this minute sent him a message,explaining the jacket's state,and asking him if he can restore it.seeing as it is so old,i think i will try and get a professional to restore it.I do not know when i will be able to afford to get it reconditioned by a professional,as winter is here now,so most of my money will be going on bills etc.He may,like aero leather suggested when i enquired about my 1942 irvin,suggest i send my early irvin to him,to examine.
I told him i can either send him pictures i have on photobucket of the jacket,or,he can visit this forum to see the pictures,and compare your jacket pictures Andrew,with mine.I also said,if he does not want to join a site,just to look at your pictures and compare them,i will ask you Andrew,if i can send some of your 1933 irvin pictures to him,so he can see what it looks like,and will have a better idea about it all.
May i have your permission Andrew,if Mr Sturge asks,to send him any of the pictures you have so kindly posted here,for us all to see?
PS: no,i do not think the dark leather colour is due to the oil.after you told me your jacket is dark brown,i immediately knew mine was the natural colour.I must just add,my reference to the jacket being a halloween horror,was mainly based on the horrible strong oil smell coming from it,it goes straight into peoples stomach when they smell it,and the dark leather look,coupled with the smell,gives it a pretty grim appearance and impression.

 

[blacklagoon]

thank you

That is a beautiful Irvin Andrew. The condition of the fleece is stunning and it seems from the photos to be a wonderful honey colour.

Blacklagoon, I think you have picked up a jacket with great potential. All the best with getting it all sorted out and fixed up.

Thank you for your kind words Smithy,that is so considerate of you to say.I may get some pecards for it,if Mr Sturge asks for a high price for the restoration,until i can save up the money he requires,for it to be restored.I really want this gentleman to restore it,he seems so genuinely respectful to the items he restores,and probably will not over do things too much,so it keeps it's original uniqueness and original state.i mentioned in my message to him,how none of us can decide which were the original zips used in 1933,and how difficult it will be to aquire them now,so i guess i will ask him to keep the sleeve zips,as potential originals,and,if he cannot obtain an early zip for the main zip,ask him to just use the one on there now,as it's a damn good zip pull,and,as i may come across an original zip pull one day,i will be quite satisfied using it until the day comes,whe i can obtain a genuine early irvin zip pull.

 

[blacklagoon]

thank you

Or maybe it did not have a belt originally?

Many early examples are very dark (almost black) in what seems to be their original form and some examples I have seen have an oily smell. The latter point has interested me for some time - if you see one jacket that has an oily finish or smell it may be a coincidence or an accident, but two see two or three or four...it begins to look purposeful. I wonder if it was an early attempt at waterproofing?

The sleeve zips are original - first pattern, double trunnion Dots. They are the same as on the example I have been trying to give away, as is the whole jacket, in fact. I think it has found a good home, by the way.

Alan

Thank you so very much for such an incredible compliment Alan.I hope it has found a good home with me also.
Regarding the oily smell.the only way i can describe it,is very strong,and smells very similar to the smell of old oil,that is in garages and coach repair garages ( there's a coach repair garage near my house ).I think,having it in my hands,it is just too strong and fresh smelling,to be any kind of original coating or waterproofing.like i was saying trying to say to Andrew,the smell goes in thorugh the nose,down the throat,then, hits and rests in the stomach like a tonne of bricks,at times.
I am extremely grateful to you,for pointing out the zips on the sleeves could possibly be genuine.it means i do not have to worry about finding originals now,because they may actually be the originals .
The belt loop threads on my jacket,are covered in the same thick looking stuff,as the original seams are.the newer replacement parts,like the belt itself,does not have a thick covering of years of oils,creams,dirt etc.the threads can clearly be seen on the actual belt,but not on the seams or the belt loops.in some ways,it is like comparing a wooden fence,that has been brushed with black tar to preserve the wood,and having a fresh,un tarred fence placed next to it.the original threads have a black tarred type of covering,the newer threads do not have that.

 

[blacklagoon]

a little extra

I must just say,your 1933 irvin jacket is beyond belief in it's condition Andrew.i really hope mine can eventually be brought back to life to such perfection.

 

[blacklagoon]

good luck

PM sent Alan

Good luck Mike.i hope it fits you.mine is really small.i have not tried it on yet,but it seems to have been made for an absolutely miniscule man.luckily,i am only 5 ' 2 '',and slim build,so it may just about fit me.i will let you know if mine fits,when the smell starts to ease off ( the smell sticks to everything,from clothes to skin :eusa_doh: ).
Please post a few pictures of it Mike,when you get it from Alan,i would really love to see you with an original 1933 irvin flying jacket.

 

[Speedster]

Congratulations on your purchase blacklagoon. A nice jacket that i hope you get restored.

When you mentioned this smelly oil that the jacket had been treated with, it struck me that it could be Ballistol, an old German oil product in use by the German army since 1905 for guns, gunstocks and leather. I use it for my blackpowder guns so i know it is smelly and since you bought the jacket from Germany, well then maybe it could be Ballistol.

Their web-page is: http://www.ballistol.de/ and they have an UK distributor here: http://www.ballistol.co.uk/.

A little about the Ballistol history (from the UK site):

quote

The Klever Company
In 1874, Friedrich Wilhelm Klever, an attorney with interest in economy, founded the "Klever Company" in Cologne, Germany. Klever began producing oils and greases from coal - so he would not run out of raw materials he eventually bought a coal mine!

The Birth of Ballistol
At the turn of the century, the German Army began looking for a versatile oil to be used by soldiers in combat - a versatile product that could be used to clean and protect metallic rifle parts, to protect leather gear and wooden gun stocks and even to disinfect minor cuts and scratches.

Freidrich's son, Dr. Helmut Klever, had become a professor of chemistry at the Technical University of Karlsruhe and set out to develop an oil which would answer the Army's challenges. In 1904, he succeeded in creating a new oil with many amazing capabilities - he called the substance Ballistol, a combination of the word "ballistic" and the Latin word for oil, "oleum". The Army tested and approved this new "ballistic oil" and began using it in 1905.

'The World's Most Versatile Oil'
Within a decade, this amazing product became popular with hunters, hikers, skiers, mountaineers and others engaged in outdoor activities throughout much of Europe. Millions of users continue to use Ballistol - and to be continually amazed at the versatility and the high quality results.

unquote

I hope you suceed with the project and look forward to seing photos of the work in progress.

 

[blacklagoon]

Ballistol

Thank you Speedster,that is incredibly helpful information.Judging by the way the guy who runs the site,says he does not like the smell much,makes me seriously think,it could very well be Bollistol.It has an appropriate name aswell,because it certainly seems to * Bollistol * everyone's nose,when they go near it.
I think it must be Bollistol myself,because the seller who i bought it off,said that the previous owner that he got it from,was german,and it was the latter owner who had rubbed the oil in.the seller bought it to renovate and wear,but saw it was too small,so immediately sold it on ebay.it sort of,in a way,passed through the sellers hands,he bought it,and immediately sold it.
I guess anyone in germany would have immediately put two and two together,and said: world war 2 leather jacket = world war 2 leather oil = Bollistol.I would have done exactly the same,and chosen Bollistol as my choice,as it is probably,to a german citizen,the very oil they would possibly have used during the war.I wonder if there was a british equivelent of Bollistol,that the pilots used.I personally can't see pilots going out of their way to look for leather creams and leather oils,when a quick,reasonably safe fix was available.If the germans had a versatile oil,that could be used for machinery,guns and leather,then i bet the british would have had exactly the same thing....but,i don't know.I will ask my father,maybe he can remember my grandfather mentioning something about it.
I don't know how the early german army,air force etc coped with the smell,as it seeps into the sheepskin,and everything smells really strongly.It has made me think a bit positive about the situation,in regards that: if a leather oil can cause such an awful strong smell,then maybe,just maybe,another leather oil,like pecards,over time,can disperse the Bollistol smell.The good thing is,seeing that it is very probably Bollistol that has been used,then it means the leather is in a good state.With my jacket,the bollistol seems to trap the sheepskins old musty smell in with it aswell,so it gives a double whammy to the nostrils.
A the moment,i have been airing it outside in the fresh air over a chair,and i will give it a little quick vacuum later on.hopefully,a few days of that,will draw a lot of the musty smell from the sheepskin.I will also visit pecards tomorrow,and buy a big tub of their vintage leather oil,so i can oil it,and oil my other 1941-42 irvin.

 

[blacklagoon]

Just to let you know

I have spent a couple of hours,thoroughly vacuuming the sheepskin,and the actual leather itself.I would say,that approximately 80 - 90% of the horrible smell vanished ( so it must have been trapped in the sheepskin and leather itself,probably from bad storage ).I have also just popped to www.antiqueleatherdressing.co.uk and bought 1 large tub of pecards vintage leather oil for £22.40 plus shipping.
Geoff from antiqueleatherdressing,gave me the advice of making sure non of the leather dressing touches the sheepskin or the zip cloth,which i must thank him for.
So,pretty soon,i can get started,at last,on applying it to both my irvin jackets.I will take a few pictures of them when they are finished,and show them to you all.I am unsure if i will be wearing them in any pictures,as the stitching on both jackets is pretty bad in places,especially the arms.but,if it seems strong enough,i may take the chance and slip them on gently.
I was able,after a good vacuuming,to hold the 1933 irvin up,and calculate,it could be a size 36 -38,or even a size 38 - 40 '' chest.Either way,i will bung it outside on a chair later,and let the fresh air get at it.
I am hoping,that the pecards will overpower any remaining smell in the jackets,and leave them a lot more tolerable to handle and wear.i will let you know if it does.

 

[Spitfire]

TALLY HO!!!!!!

My new AL IRVIN has just arrived. It's SO B.... BEAUTIFULL!
(And it fits like glove)
Pics to follow...right now I just wont take it off.

 

[PADDY]

Chocks Away - Soren!!

Get that camera out, you KNOW you want to We'll all do a "snow dance" just for you, so that you can put that baby through its paces!!

 

[Rufus]

Congrats Spitfire!
I know how patiently you've been waiting! Just in time for some chilly weather too..
Looking forward to some photos!

Is there any better way of breaking up a working day than the arrival of a parcel? (containing..jackets!!)

rufus

 

[Smithy]

Come on S??ren, let's see some pics!!!!

 

[Alan Eardley]

Mike has agreed to give a good home to The Orphan Irvin. Brave man. He knows what he is taking on and is undeterred. I just need to find a box and get it weighed and it can start its new life.

Now then, Paddy, about that Irvin suit. Let's get moving, eh?

Alan

Hey Alan, I'm no stranger to wearing wrecks of Irvins...

In fact it sounds in better nick than the one I actually wear Good home waiting if your interested!

BTW, I wore the lovely multi panel Irvin I bought from Andrew for the first time at the weekend, and even better it was at Thruxton Airfield (Brother in law was there for a race day)

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Mike has agreed to give a good home to The Orphan Irvin. Brave man. He knows what he is taking on and is undeterred. I just need to find a box and get it weighed and it can start its new life.

Alan

Drat.

The hunt for a tiny original Irvin continues.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Drat.

The hunt for a tiny original Irvin continues.

bk

'Twas too big for the likes of 'ee.

How about a D-1?

Alan

 

[Mike1973]

Mike has agreed to give a good home to The Orphan Irvin. Brave man. He knows what he is taking on and is undeterred. I just need to find a box and get it weighed and it can start its new life.

Alan

Good show Alan!

I'll make sure I'll post regular updates on it's overhaul on here

Bad luck Baron :eusa_doh: