IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[ukali1066]

Where do you find these incredible Irvins mate ??? You must have a time machine

 

[blacklagoon]

incredible

that jacket is incredible Andrew.i sure wish mine was in that condition.it is fascinating how you manage to find such immaculate jackets,i wish i had your touch and gift of acquisition.
I sent an email to pecards uk,asking if they could help getting the oil out of my jacket.they said they will ask pecards in the usa for help for me.I really hope they know a why to get oil out,as it really is smelling bad at times,and the smell sticks to whatever it touches,clothes etc.:eusa_doh:
I have noticed that the collar rings on mine,seem to be a lot smaller than yours,comparing by the pictures.i would say about 1 full inch from the corner of the sheepskin,but mine seem so much more compact into a much smaller ring.your jacket is in such immaculate condition,it beggers belief. i am so glad you bought it,it means it will stay as it is for a very long time to come.

 

[aswatland]

that jacket is incredible Andrew.i sure wish mine was in that condition.it is fascinating how you manage to find such immaculate jackets,i wish i had your touch and gift of acquisition.
I sent an email to pecards uk,asking if they could help getting the oil out of my jacket.they said they will ask pecards in the usa for help for me.I really hope they know a why to get oil out,as it really is smelling bad at times,and the smell sticks to whatever it touches,clothes etc.:eusa_doh:
I have noticed that the collar rings on mine,seem to be a lot smaller than yours,comparing by the pictures.i would say about 1 full inch from the corner of the sheepskin,but mine seem so much more compact into a much smaller ring.your jacket is in such immaculate condition,it beggers belief. i am so glad you bought it,it means it will stay as it is for a very long time to come.

Thanks. Irvin Air chute used much smaller collar rings on their jackets and I guess they made your pre-war Irvin Blacklagoon.

 

[aswatland]

Late War Irvin

Much earlier in the year I bought a late War multi-panelled Irvin. It's a size 5. The jacket is complete with the AM label. The main zip is a Lightning and the sleeve zips have the kings crown on them, the AM and F.S.. I'm not sure what F.S. standards for. I have seen many late War Irvins with F.F. on the zip pulls, which probably stands for "Flash Fastener". The jacket is in superb condition, with no obvious fleece wear.

 

[ukali1066]

LOVE the patina on this one Andrew

 

[Alan Eardley]

Well done. I noticed this Irvin. IMO it's pre-war, probably mid 1930s. It has similar features to my 1933 Irvin: thin seam tapes, single trunion brass Dot zips, a darker brown finish and close pile fleece. A bargain for £80!

Very early - look at the 'first pattern' zips! And the belt - a later addition? Probably a civilian model.

BTW, I have been trying to get rid of a similar aged jacket in similar condition (ripped sleeve) for nothing and no-one will take it off my hands!

Alan

 

[Mike1973]

Very early - look at the 'first pattern' zips! And the belt - a later addition? Probably a civilian model.

BTW, I have been trying to get rid of a similar aged jacket in similar condition (ripped sleeve) for nothing and no-one will take it off my hands!

Alan

Hey Alan, I'm no stranger to wearing wrecks of Irvins...

In fact it sounds in better nick than the one I actually wear Good home waiting if your interested!

BTW, I wore the lovely multi panel Irvin I bought from Andrew for the first time at the weekend, and even better it was at Thruxton Airfield (Brother in law was there for a race day)

 

[Alan Eardley]

Hey Alan, I'm no stranger to wearing wrecks of Irvins...

In fact it sounds in better nick than the one I actually wear Good home waiting if your interested!

Mike

PM me - it's rough but restorable (torn sleeve and patched body panel) but needs and deserves a good home. I'll need you to give me your word on that, of course. It's has no label, but is a trim 38", by the way.

 

[Mike1973]

Mike

PM me - it's rough but restorable (torn sleeve and patched body panel) but needs and deserves a good home. I'll need you to give me your word on that, of course. It's has no label, but is a trim 38", by the way.

PM sent Alan

 

[Quiet Man]

In search of a swop

Hello, is anyone interested in swopping a named 1941 IAC Irvin in pretty much perfect condition for a similar jacket a wee bit bigger? Mine's a Size 4 and I need a 5 or 6. Will post some pictures of the jacket if there's any interest.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[blacklagoon]

pics of my jacket

Seeing as it is Halloween soon,i decided to take a few pictures of the Dreaded Reeking Halloween Horror Itself
This is the irvin flying jacket i bought on ebay a few days ago.it is not in the greatest condition,due to the previous owner rubbing gun oil into the leather.there is a big tear under the arm,the belt and the zips have been replaced by later versions and the sheepskin on the collar is pretty badly worn now,as is the sheepskin on the sleeve cuffs.
By the way,i had a reply from pecards,to see if they could help remove the oil from the jacket,but they could not suggest anything,except the last resort of sending it to a specialist dry cleaners,which,they said would probably destroy the jacket.I have decided to go for broke,and try and get as much help and advice as i can,from anyone i know who has a leather jacket,and may be able to ask others who may be able to help me.seeing as the oil is the worse thing possible to rub into the jacket,and it can't get any worse,i have decided to buy any leather creams,oils etc to rub into it.rubbing a bit of goodness into it,may eventually start dispersing the oil,and make the leather more conditioned,and smell a lot less horrible.

1: bad repair stitching
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/1-1.jpg

2: bad repair stitching
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/2-1.jpg

3: white stitching and leather condition
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/3-1.jpg

4: white stitching and leather condition
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/4-1.jpg

5: body leather and zip leather
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/5-1.jpg

6: under arm seams
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/6-1.jpg

7: under arm seams and vent
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/7-1.jpg

8: collar right side,and centre tear
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/8-1.jpg

9: worn inside sleeve cuff
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/9-1.jpg

10: seam close up
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/10-1.jpg

11: under arm seam close up
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/11-1.jpg

12: collar rings and collar seam
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/12-1.jpg

13: full frontal picture
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/13-1.jpg

14: sleeve seam and arm seam
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/14-1.jpg

15: main front zip and seams
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/15-1.jpg

16: patch,i presume
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/16-1.jpg

17:bad cuff stitching
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/17-1.jpg

18: more bad stitching
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/18-1.jpg

19: sleeve and zip leather
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/19-1.jpg

20: collar strap holder
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/20-1.jpg

21: vent
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/21-1.jpg

22: full back picture
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/22-1.jpg

23: upper back and collar
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/23-1.jpg

24: under arm rip
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/24-1.jpg

25: inside hanging chain
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/25-1.jpg

26: label remains,i presume.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/26-1.jpg

27: inner sheepskin
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/27-1.jpg

28: belt and buckle
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/28-1.jpg

29:badly damaged collar strap
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/29-1.jpg

30: worn inner collar
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/30-1.jpg

31:main body zipper base
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/31-1.jpg

32: collar rings
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/32-1.jpg

33: collar rings
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/33-1.jpg

34: main body zip front
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/34-1.jpg

35: main body zip back
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/35-1.jpg

36: sleeve zip front
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/36-1.jpg

37: sleeve zip back
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/37-1.jpg

38: belt edge and seem
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/38-1.jpg

I don't know any history of this jacket,so i don't know why the belt and zips were replaced.probably damaged,or cut off for safety in the cockpit perhaps? The main zip pull looks ok,but the actual zipper itself is totally destroyed,so i will need to get another one.the sleeve zips may be workable,so i will dab the teeth with 3 in 1 oil,and see if it helps.
Does anyone else think i should just go for broke,and rub any leather conditioning cream and oil i find,into it? Any helpful advice and suggestions will be extremely appreciated.

 

[aswatland]

Great range of pics, Blacklagoon! Your jacket is without doubt an early 30s model made by Air Chute. It is very similar to my 1933 Irvin. Mine also has an unmarked slider bucket. The main zip pull, is, as you say a replacement and would date from post 1940. The un-marked sleeve zip pull, which is mottled on one side and has horizontal lines on the other, is typically seen on jackets and trousers from the period 1938-40. It is probably a replacement too. The belt is also a replacement, although it would seem the original buckle end has been sewn to a later plain belt.

Do you believe the dark colour to be oil? My 1933 Irvin is the same colour and definitely is not oil!

A nice restoration job indeed! Good luck with it.

 

[Alan Eardley]

The belt is also a replacement, although it would seem the original buckle end has been sewn to a later plain belt.

Do you believe the dark colour to be oil? My 1933 Irvin is the same colour and definitely is not oil!

A nice restoration job indeed! Good luck with it.

Or maybe it did not have a belt originally?

Many early examples are very dark (almost black) in what seems to be their original form and some examples I have seen have an oily smell. The latter point has interested me for some time - if you see one jacket that has an oily finish or smell it may be a coincidence or an accident, but two see two or three or four...it begins to look purposeful. I wonder if it was an early attempt at waterproofing?

The sleeve zips are original - first pattern, double trunnion Dots. They are the same as on the example I have been trying to give away, as is the whole jacket, in fact. I think it has found a good home, by the way.

Alan

 

[John Lever]

Or maybe it did not have a belt originally?

Many early examples are very dark (almost black) in what seems to be their original form and some examples I have seen have an oily smell. The latter point has interested me for some time - if you see one jacket that has an oily finish or smell it may be a coincidence or an accident, but two see two or three or four...it begins to look purposeful. I wonder if it was an early attempt at waterproofing?

The sleeve zips are original - first pattern, double trunnion Dots. They are the same as on the example I have been trying to give away, as is the whole jacket, in fact. I think it has found a good home, by the way.

Alan

If you click on ' image ' rather than ' link ', photos will be displayed rather than the photobucket link.

 

[aswatland]

Or maybe it did not have a belt originally?

Many early examples are very dark (almost black) in what seems to be their original form and some examples I have seen have an oily smell. The latter point has interested me for some time - if you see one jacket that has an oily finish or smell it may be a coincidence or an accident, but two see two or three or four...it begins to look purposeful. I wonder if it was an early attempt at waterproofing?

The sleeve zips are original - first pattern, double trunnion Dots. They are the same as on the example I have been trying to give away, as is the whole jacket, in fact. I think it has found a good home, by the way.

Alan

Alan, You may well be correct about the belt, however the belt loops look original to jacket so perhaps it did originally have a belt, but was subsequently repaired.

As you have pointed out before the history of zips is a difficult area. It would be interesting if the sleeve zips on the jacket are earlier than 1938. They may well be the original sliders and pullers. I have never seen this type of Dot pulls on such an early jacket, but with Irvins you learn all the time! What we need is documentary evidence when particular zips were first used. Also a dated spec label for this jacket would be helpful.

Now the zips on my 1933 Irvin are what I had assumed were the first edition Dots, single trunion brass Dots. These, I believe are the same as on the 1932 Irvin in Prodger's book. They are the single trunion brass variety.

Below are up to date photos of my 1933 Irvin so it can be compared with Blacklagoons. It is the four panel back construction as opposed to the two. The leather zip pulls are all original, as is the collar securing strap. The brass pulls are stamped "Dot made in England" and the slider bucket is unmarked. The stamped numbers 33 are visible on the label. It is made of high quality shortpile fleece, which is generally supple. The elastic collar securing strap is entirely original.

 

[Smithy]

That is a beautiful Irvin Andrew. The condition of the fleece is stunning and it seems from the photos to be a wonderful honey colour.

Blacklagoon, I think you have picked up a jacket with great potential. All the best with getting it all sorted out and fixed up.

 

[Alan Eardley]

As you have pointed out before the history of zips is a difficult area. It would be interesting if the sleeve zips on the jacket are earlier than 1938. They may well be the original sliders and pullers.

Andrew,

The jacket that I have that is the same as this one has those same zips and is definitely before 1938 as it was originally issued to the grandfather of the guy who gave it to me when he joined the RAF in 1936. The son of the original owner was alive when I acquired the jacket and he had dated album photos of his dad wearing what he told me was the same jacket - I have no reason to doubt this.

Given what has been said about artefact dating, photographs are, as far as I can see, the best way to date jacket features, provided the photos can be dated reliably. Obviously a jacket made in 1936 can appear in a later photograph (I have a 1957 photo of a Polish airman wearing with pride the jacket issued to him at the start of the Battle of Britain) but, Dr. Who aside, a jacket made in 1942 cannot appear in a 1940 photograph.

Although I agree that you can't date a jacket by the zips on it, the date on which they are first used as original equipment can be a guide, unless of course they are replacements, whiuch can usually be spotted. These are very different from the later pattern double trunnion Dots, of course.

By the way, are you sure that IAC 33 (or 35 or 37 etc.) refers to the date of manufacture and is not an Irvin production code or something? I have seen IAC numbers in the mid 30s on the labels of jackets that have all the features of war-time jackets.


Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Alan, You may well be correct about the belt, however the belt loops look original to jacket so perhaps it did originally have a belt, but was subsequently repaired.

The buckle of an original belt has clearly been sewn onto a new belt. We could assume that is from the original and that the loops are original. Certainly my jacket (very like this one) has its original belt.

Alan

 

[aswatland]

Andrew,




By the way, are you sure that IAC 33 (or 35 or 37 etc.) refers to the date of manufacture and is not an Irvin production code or something? I have seen IAC numbers in the mid 30s on the labels of jackets that have all the features of war-time jackets.


Alan

The jacket has a 1932 printed date as part of the patent no, but the 33 is stamped on along with IAC, so it was most likely made in 1933.

 

[Alan Eardley]

The jacket has a 1932 printed date as part of the patent no, but the 33 is stamped on along with IAC, so it was most likely made in 1933.

Andrew,

Can I point out that the date in a patent number does not indicate the year of manufacture of the object (Mick Prodger makes this mistake) but the year in which the original patent was granted? Until 1995 this was 15 years.

Also, do you have any documentary evidence that the two numbers after IAC on a label refer to an abbreviated date?

Alan