Alan Eardley
One Too Many
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- 1,500
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- Midlands, UK
Ahah! I used to own one of those jackets...
Alan
Alan
aswatland said:
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IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!
- Thread starter PADDY
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blacklagoon
One of the Regulars
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- 224
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- united kingdom
wonderful
your jackets are incredible aswatland.i am always amazed and awestruck at how you manage to find the best early,and war time irvin jackets.they are always in such immaculate condition.I have often used the knowledge you so kindly share,to work out if an irvin on ebay is a repro,or if the seller is over exaggerating about it ( I have seen many 4 panel back irvins selling on ebay,and the seller insisting it was used in the battle of britain ).Thank you for all your help.I would have made a few bad buying mistakes if it were not for you and your intense concern for accuracy.
your jackets are incredible aswatland.i am always amazed and awestruck at how you manage to find the best early,and war time irvin jackets.they are always in such immaculate condition.I have often used the knowledge you so kindly share,to work out if an irvin on ebay is a repro,or if the seller is over exaggerating about it ( I have seen many 4 panel back irvins selling on ebay,and the seller insisting it was used in the battle of britain ).Thank you for all your help.I would have made a few bad buying mistakes if it were not for you and your intense concern for accuracy.
aswatland
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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- 3,338
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- Kent, England
I am very glad you have benefitted from my posts, Blacklagoon. I'm learning all the time about Irvins. For the record some of the earliest Irvins had four panel fronts and 4 panel backs. I have one dated 1933 by IAC. Such early jackets were generally darker than the mid war multi-panel jackets. IAC made both 2 and 4 panel Irvins before the war. Wareings, the other large pre-War contractor generally made only 2 panel Irvins, the first for their 1935 contract.
Spitfire
I'll Lock Up
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- 5,078
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- Copenhagen, Denmark.
Panels?
Andrew - For the benefit of the uneducated, can you explain a little about 2 and 4 panels?
Is it so simple that a jacket without any seam across the breast or back is a two panel?
I have just never before heard the word "panel" used in context with Irvins.
So in the beginning of the war Irvins had two or four "panels" and later even more?
How many? And when did they change from four panels?
How do one find out what year a jacket is produced, when they both used two and four pannels before 1940?
Andrew - For the benefit of the uneducated, can you explain a little about 2 and 4 panels?
Is it so simple that a jacket without any seam across the breast or back is a two panel?
I have just never before heard the word "panel" used in context with Irvins.
So in the beginning of the war Irvins had two or four "panels" and later even more?
How many? And when did they change from four panels?
How do one find out what year a jacket is produced, when they both used two and four pannels before 1940?
blacklagoon
One of the Regulars
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- 224
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- united kingdom
incredible
that is an incredible bit of information Andrew.i am even more awestruck by the fact that that info was on the tip of your fingertips.thank you for sharing that information with us.I have noticed,that whenever i type irvin jacket etc,into google search,this site and thread,is one of the first and main things that turn up.with your knowledge and advice in this thread,on this site,i really hope,for the sake of everyone interested and concerned about the irvin flying clothes,it continues to be one of the main sites google picks.
If you ever write a book about the irvin jacket,i will most certainly buy it Andrew.
that is an incredible bit of information Andrew.i am even more awestruck by the fact that that info was on the tip of your fingertips.thank you for sharing that information with us.I have noticed,that whenever i type irvin jacket etc,into google search,this site and thread,is one of the first and main things that turn up.with your knowledge and advice in this thread,on this site,i really hope,for the sake of everyone interested and concerned about the irvin flying clothes,it continues to be one of the main sites google picks.
If you ever write a book about the irvin jacket,i will most certainly buy it Andrew.
aswatland
My Mail is Forwarded Here
- Messages
- 3,338
- Location
- Kent, England
Dating Irvins is not always easy! The first Irvins from 1931 did not have the half waist belt. They were made by IAC and were of the four panel variety. i.e the back was made of four pieces of sheepskin, with the panels sewn together and with cow hide tapes used to cover the seams. A similar configuration was used for the front. From 1932 IAC added the half belt. The zips were marked "Dot, Made in England". IAC also made the more traditional pre-War two panel Irvins, similar to the ones I recently featured on this site. In 1935 the Air Ministry was anxious to increase the size of the RAF and issued more contracts to IAC and Wareing and Co. Further contracts were placed in 1938 with the same firms. Some of the jackets from this time had "Dot British" marked on the slider bucket. Others still had "Dot Made in England". Makers used what ever zips were to hand!
Production was stepped up from 1938 and these jackets were generally the two panel variety. Where the white linen labels have survived they contain the date, i.e, 39, 40 etc...This is the date of the contract, not necessarily the date of manufacture. From late 1940 zip pulls were first marked with a kings crown and the AM symbol. The zip sliders were made by Dot and were either the brass single trunion variety or the fragile double trunion cast iron ones as on my DGL jacket. The fleeces tended to be close pile, whilst later in the war longer pile fleeces were used.
From 1941 four panel Irvins replaced the two panel jackets and from 1943, as sheepskin became in short supply, multipanel jackets were made using anything up to 10 or 14 panels for the front or back! However, there were exceptions, such as the odd two panel jacket made in 1945, with the date on the label. From 1941 Lightning zips were first used and as the War progressed Flash Fastner zips were commonly used on the sleeves.
It would seem that some high ranking officers had much better quality Irvins. I have two Irvins in my collection which are top quality, one from 1938 and the other from 1941-2. On these jackets the seams are wider, the stitching straighter..i.e top quality. One of these belonged to a Squadron Leader who flew Mosquitos.
Hanging straps were either leather strips or chains, with the former on the two top quality jackets in my collection.
From around 1940 the AM issued contracts to other makers, such as DGL, a pre-war maker of motor cycle gear, Robinson and Ensum, and Links.
I might write a book on the subject one day, but would need to do archival research on the contracts. I have info on many labels, but am not in a position yet to link them all to specific makers.
Production was stepped up from 1938 and these jackets were generally the two panel variety. Where the white linen labels have survived they contain the date, i.e, 39, 40 etc...This is the date of the contract, not necessarily the date of manufacture. From late 1940 zip pulls were first marked with a kings crown and the AM symbol. The zip sliders were made by Dot and were either the brass single trunion variety or the fragile double trunion cast iron ones as on my DGL jacket. The fleeces tended to be close pile, whilst later in the war longer pile fleeces were used.
From 1941 four panel Irvins replaced the two panel jackets and from 1943, as sheepskin became in short supply, multipanel jackets were made using anything up to 10 or 14 panels for the front or back! However, there were exceptions, such as the odd two panel jacket made in 1945, with the date on the label. From 1941 Lightning zips were first used and as the War progressed Flash Fastner zips were commonly used on the sleeves.
It would seem that some high ranking officers had much better quality Irvins. I have two Irvins in my collection which are top quality, one from 1938 and the other from 1941-2. On these jackets the seams are wider, the stitching straighter..i.e top quality. One of these belonged to a Squadron Leader who flew Mosquitos.
Hanging straps were either leather strips or chains, with the former on the two top quality jackets in my collection.
From around 1940 the AM issued contracts to other makers, such as DGL, a pre-war maker of motor cycle gear, Robinson and Ensum, and Links.
I might write a book on the subject one day, but would need to do archival research on the contracts. I have info on many labels, but am not in a position yet to link them all to specific makers.
Thank you for that Andrew, very enlightening.
You really should consider writing a book on Irvins or Allied flying jackets in general as you have so much knowledge on the subject and have had the fortune to have and have handled so many. You could certainly put me down for a copy.
You really should consider writing a book on Irvins or Allied flying jackets in general as you have so much knowledge on the subject and have had the fortune to have and have handled so many. You could certainly put me down for a copy.
Such a wide topic, so little info.
This would make a great topic for a book and Andrew as we have previously discussed there is a lack of period written data available but i'm sure it probably lies in your National Archives somewhere- get in there and dig it out!
I still have to pass on to you the commentary Mick Prodger and Graham Potts sent me late last year on this topic- although it's now buried within my Outlook on my non functioning computer. I will have to find a way to extract those older emails. It was quite interesting from memory.
I know most of your knowledge has been gained through observation and handling of originals and recording contact numbers where you could and that is also the method used by the two gurus mentioned previously, but without the period printed matter to back that up they believe (and i'm with them) that it will always be somewhat objective.
I would love for you to uncover the dated patent drawings for all of the contract- that would certainly answer a few questions. Also from what Graham has told me I understand all items of kit had a prototype which was bound up with wire, lead sealed and was labelled accordingly as the definitive example to aim at- apparently years ago he owned a pair of Irvin trousers trussed up this way. I wonder if anyone has ever seen an Irvin labeled like this?
If you did start such a project i'd put you in touch with Graham as I know he's been writing another major one over the past few years on RAF fliying clothing. A definitive text on the Irvin would only arise through shared knowledge I feel.
This would make a great topic for a book and Andrew as we have previously discussed there is a lack of period written data available but i'm sure it probably lies in your National Archives somewhere- get in there and dig it out!
I still have to pass on to you the commentary Mick Prodger and Graham Potts sent me late last year on this topic- although it's now buried within my Outlook on my non functioning computer. I will have to find a way to extract those older emails. It was quite interesting from memory.
I know most of your knowledge has been gained through observation and handling of originals and recording contact numbers where you could and that is also the method used by the two gurus mentioned previously, but without the period printed matter to back that up they believe (and i'm with them) that it will always be somewhat objective.
I would love for you to uncover the dated patent drawings for all of the contract- that would certainly answer a few questions. Also from what Graham has told me I understand all items of kit had a prototype which was bound up with wire, lead sealed and was labelled accordingly as the definitive example to aim at- apparently years ago he owned a pair of Irvin trousers trussed up this way. I wonder if anyone has ever seen an Irvin labeled like this?
If you did start such a project i'd put you in touch with Graham as I know he's been writing another major one over the past few years on RAF fliying clothing. A definitive text on the Irvin would only arise through shared knowledge I feel.
Spitfire
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 5,078
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- Copenhagen, Denmark.
Thank you Andrew. Very enlightening info.
And like the Windsock and Smithy: Please write that book.
And like the Windsock and Smithy: Please write that book.
Alan Eardley
One Too Many
- Messages
- 1,500
- Location
- Midlands, UK
Andrew,
When you say, '... dated 1933 by IAC' what piece of information on the jacket are you refering to specifically?
Alan
When you say, '... dated 1933 by IAC' what piece of information on the jacket are you refering to specifically?
Alan
aswatland said:
Alan Eardley
One Too Many
- Messages
- 1,500
- Location
- Midlands, UK
Windsock said:
I agree with Messrs. Prodger and Potts. 'Dating by artefact' (e.g. constructing a timeline by looking 'backwards' at historical objects) has been largely discredited in other forms of archeology, as so many examples of its use have been found to be erroneous. In our area, I would not trust dating by zips or by construction, unless I knew for a fact that the inspection processes that were in place would have made it mandatory to use such and such a zip or to make up a jacket in such and such a way. Modern production control techniques (especially for military contracts) make us take this for granted, but can we be sure that the same things applied in war-time? Without documentation, I don't believe we can.
Over the last twenty or so years I have myself tried to produce a timeline and a taxonomy of RAF flying jackets yo my own satisfaction several times, and have never been sufficiently satisfied with them to 'go public'. First, as soon as you feel you have 'things in place', you will uncover a fact that causes you to question what you already know. Second, in research there are such things as 'standards of proof' that are intended to replace subjectivity with objectivity, and these usually depend on contemporary documentary evidence. This is exactly what Windsock is refering to, and he (?) is exactly right - rigorous research into the archives, patents etc. is needed and this would not be easy. I supervise PhDs, and I get the feeling that we are talking about something of that scale. Perhaps when I retire...
For what it is worth, about Windsock's reference to the ' wire sealed sample', I worked on government flying clothing contracts in the 70s and this is how things worked then. The 'Specification' arrived like 'sealed orders' and contained a description of the item. The 'Sample' also came sealed (by this time in a bag rather than wire) and enough bales of material and crates of trimmings (e.g. zips) were delivered to complete the contract. There was also 100% inspection of finished items by MOD inspectors who were in the factory more or less full time.
Were pre-war or war-time contracts done like this? Not according to the people who I worked with who had actually worked on them in war-time. They told me that quality control was much less rigorous, including items being subcontracted to other firms that were not subject to the same QC processes. According to people 'who were there' war-time material supply and stock control in the clothing industry was apparently not the smooth-running machine that some contemporary journalism would have had us believe. Under these conditions, and with so many unlabelled examples, I don't think we can assume the sort of standardisation that would allow us to say that a certain jacket is from a certain maker because it has a certain collar detail, or to give it a date because it has a certain type of zip.
Just my opinion.
Alan
Alan
aswatland
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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- Kent, England
Alan Eardley said:
The 1933 Irvin in my collection has the date stamped on it. The label says: 407445/32. IAC 33. The 32 is the issue number for the AM contract and the IAC 33, which is stamped on, is the date the jacket was issued. As I have said earlier research needs to be done on the contracts. My observations are based upon the jackets I have handled and nothing is full proof. I have undertaken considerable historical research on my PhD 25 years ago and more subsequently before it was published as a book in 1996. So I am fully aware of the need for documentary proof! I agree with Alan that zips alone can't be used to date Irvins. I always endeavour to link dates of contracts on labels with jackets and construction features when dating an Irvin. It is not a precise science. We all make mistakes! I am learning all the time!
Buzz Rickson
New in Town
- Messages
- 4
- Location
- Germany
Eastman 1940 pattern Irvin
Hi folks,
I'm selling my Eastman RAF 1940 Irvin. Its from 2001. One of the first ELC made. Its size 40 and in very good condition. If anyone is interested please contact me.
Thank You!
Buzz
Hi folks,
I'm selling my Eastman RAF 1940 Irvin. Its from 2001. One of the first ELC made. Its size 40 and in very good condition. If anyone is interested please contact me.
Thank You!
Buzz
ukali1066
Practically Family
- Messages
- 514
- Location
- West Yorkshire
I'm still saving up funds to buy myself an Irvin repro [ hope I can manage it before next summer ! ]
One thing I do want is the seam tapes to be the same shade as the body of the jacket, just for personal aesthetic reasons, I've noticed Eastman's seem to have almost orangey coloured taping...I don't like this.
The real deal version made by Aeroleather has what I'm after, from the photos I've seen...
Is this universal on all made by either company ?
Any info/ advice would be much appreciated
One thing I do want is the seam tapes to be the same shade as the body of the jacket, just for personal aesthetic reasons, I've noticed Eastman's seem to have almost orangey coloured taping...I don't like this.
The real deal version made by Aeroleather has what I'm after, from the photos I've seen...
Is this universal on all made by either company ?
Any info/ advice would be much appreciated
ukali1066 said:
I can only speak in relation to my Eastman 1940 Pattern but the seam tapes are not orangey at all on my jacket. Rather they are merely a lighter brown from the rest of the jacket.
I think it is the flash being used in photos which is creating this appearance.
Buzz Rickson
New in Town
- Messages
- 4
- Location
- Germany
Smithy said:
Yes, I think so too. I also have the Eastman 1940. The color difference is surely from the flashlight. No worries. The color is great!
ediamond
New in Town
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- 7
- Location
- Skokie, IL
The Cockpit version of the Irvin: Is it any good?
Ok, now i've been lurking for a while and I just ordered one of these jackets. I am not a re-enactor so historical accuracy isn't that important to me. I am looking for a good quality shearling bomber in a size 58. (I'm big.) I want it to keep me warm on el platforms and when walking my kid to school, or riding on my motorcycle. I'd like some freedom of movement. I want it to age well and last a while (5 or more years). I don't want to have to treat it too gently, though I am generally not too rough on clothing. The price on the Cockpit version was pretty good and the price on their B-3 version is even better in comparison to some of the more precise repros...I am a sucker for the honey colored fleece though.
Does anyone have experience with their products? Will this fit the bill for me?
Ok, now i've been lurking for a while and I just ordered one of these jackets. I am not a re-enactor so historical accuracy isn't that important to me. I am looking for a good quality shearling bomber in a size 58. (I'm big.) I want it to keep me warm on el platforms and when walking my kid to school, or riding on my motorcycle. I'd like some freedom of movement. I want it to age well and last a while (5 or more years). I don't want to have to treat it too gently, though I am generally not too rough on clothing. The price on the Cockpit version was pretty good and the price on their B-3 version is even better in comparison to some of the more precise repros...I am a sucker for the honey colored fleece though.
Does anyone have experience with their products? Will this fit the bill for me?
blacklagoon
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 224
- Location
- united kingdom
thank you
I will take photo's of it when i have,eventually,bought,and applied some pecards into the leather,and post a few piccies here mike.In the mean time,the delay in buying pecards,has popped up again.at first,i couldn't buy any,due to the fact i saw those trousers,and decided to put my money towards them.now,miracle of miracles,purchasing some pecards has been delayed again,because in the last 2 hours,i popped to ebay,and saw an original 1940 era irvin,selling for a buy it now price of £80.00,from a seller in germany.so,i bought it!! ( i swear,i did at least 2 or 3 double takes,visiting the page,to check it was really there for that price lol ).
I will post the pictures the ebay seller posted of it,until i manage to get it,and take a few pictures myself.
The main zip does not work at all,it is totally broken.both zips on the wrist/forearm sleeves,do work,but are very stiff.all zips are original.the stitching on one of the arms has come loose,and the arm is hanging off,and the sheepskin on the neck area is badly moth eaten in places.other than that,and the fact the seller has rubbed gun oil deep in,and all over the jackets leather ( he says it pongs of gun oil ),it seems in really great condition.
Anyway,here are 6 little pics the seller posted on ebay,for you to see of it.( at this rate,i'll never manage to get any pecards lol :eusa_doh: ).
here are the direct links to the ebay sellers pics,on photobucket:
1: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin6.jpg
2: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin5.jpg
3: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin4.jpg
4: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin3.jpg
5: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin2.jpg
6: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin1.jpg
I have just noticed,from the pictures,that the damage under the arm,is more of a rip,than loose stitching.i guess i will have to get that repaired,or it will get worse over time.
Mike1973 said:I wouldn't call mine 'done up', more 'done in'! lol I decided it was too far gone to 'restore', so I'm just enjoing it 'as is'.
I'm really looking forward to seeing yours though
I will take photo's of it when i have,eventually,bought,and applied some pecards into the leather,and post a few piccies here mike.In the mean time,the delay in buying pecards,has popped up again.at first,i couldn't buy any,due to the fact i saw those trousers,and decided to put my money towards them.now,miracle of miracles,purchasing some pecards has been delayed again,because in the last 2 hours,i popped to ebay,and saw an original 1940 era irvin,selling for a buy it now price of £80.00,from a seller in germany.so,i bought it!!
( i swear,i did at least 2 or 3 double takes,visiting the page,to check it was really there for that price lol ).I will post the pictures the ebay seller posted of it,until i manage to get it,and take a few pictures myself.
The main zip does not work at all,it is totally broken.both zips on the wrist/forearm sleeves,do work,but are very stiff.all zips are original.the stitching on one of the arms has come loose,and the arm is hanging off,and the sheepskin on the neck area is badly moth eaten in places.other than that,and the fact the seller has rubbed gun oil deep in,and all over the jackets leather ( he says it pongs of gun oil ),it seems in really great condition.
Anyway,here are 6 little pics the seller posted on ebay,for you to see of it.( at this rate,i'll never manage to get any pecards lol :eusa_doh: ).
here are the direct links to the ebay sellers pics,on photobucket:
1: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin6.jpg
2: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin5.jpg
3: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin4.jpg
4: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin3.jpg
5: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin2.jpg
6: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g104/bloodgorged/irvin1.jpg
I have just noticed,from the pictures,that the damage under the arm,is more of a rip,than loose stitching.i guess i will have to get that repaired,or it will get worse over time.
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aswatland
My Mail is Forwarded Here
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- Kent, England
Well done. I noticed this Irvin. IMO it's pre-war, probably mid 1930s. It has similar features to my 1933 Irvin: thin seam tapes, single trunion brass Dot zips, a darker brown finish and close pile fleece. A bargain for £80!
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