In what era were the best hats in America made?

[facade]

Exactly! Crofut & Knapp once stated that the Cavanagh Edge process involved 32 separate steps, most of which don't come across in the reading of the patent. I suspect that the 32-step process might be a bit of advertising hyperbole, but it certainly was not as simple as the patent made it out to be.

Brad

Your new website looks like it will be an amazing source of information. Stop chit-chatting and get to work finishing it! I kid I kid... well not really.

 

[TheDane]

I suspect that the 32-step process might be a bit of advertising hyperbole, but it certainly was not as simple as the patent made it out to be.

- and no reason to tell competitors, that they are only four process away. Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your edge-project. I thought the low quality was due to lack of skills and knowledge

On the subject of rayon, the Hawes Von Gal posted earlier in this thread (circa 1903) and the Cheyenne western (later in that decade) both utilize a silk ribbon and bow. These hats were manufactured before rayon became widely available as a substitute for silk. I think you can get some sense from photo just how special a material this is. Did it become too expensive compared to rayon, or was the aesthetic of the stiffer rayon ribbon more manly?

I have seen an old bolt from the French company "Vialaton & Martin", that was silk. The label looked like the ones they used in the 30s/40s for their cotton/rayon ribbon. I don't know if this was made for hats, though

 

[Brad Bowers]

- and no reason to tell competitors, that they are only four process away. Sorry, I obviously misunderstood your edge-project. I thought the low quality was due to lack of skills and knowledge

I know, I need to get back to the website. Much of it I have to work on in between semesters.

I don't know that I mentioned much about Richard and the Cavanagh Edge he made for, so I can understand the confusion. He was/is a longtime employee for Winchester, going all the way back to when it used to be a plant for Hat Corporation of America, and used to make Cavanagh Edges back in the day. When I interviewed him years ago, he was trying to describe the process to me over the phone, and he finally said, "Maybe it would be easier if I just made up some bodies showing you the various stages so you can understand." I already knew the stages from the patent, but I wisely kept my mouth closed, and was extremely excited to be given this rare opportunity. When I received them and called Richard to thank him, he told me he had to dig around in the back of the plant to find the old sewing machine attachment and shackles used for Cavanagh Edges, which hadn't been used in 20 years, at least. Richard said the Winchester employees were fascinated with the process, as most of them didn't know about it, and they watched him make the bodies. They tried to talk the manager at Winchester into letting them try to make them, but he turned them down. Too bad.

Alan, I always figured the switch from silk to other fibers was probably due to wartime shortages, and perhaps cost. Just a guess, though.

Brad

 

[TheDane]

Brad: Thanks for elaborating. Extremely interesting project

 

[Mulceber]

Wait, so you say the refusal to produce cavanagh edges came when they were still controlled by Hatco? Sooo....now that they're independent, maybe now might be the time to ask them about doing it again?

 

[Tomasso]

the available felt, ribbon and leather qualities have substantially declined.

OK so fast forward a few pages and we find that there is leather and ribbon (silk) of comparable quality to be had today albeit at a price that hatters don't wish to pay. So how about the felt? Today's 100 % beaver no match for that of the golden era?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Wait, so you say the refusal to produce cavanagh edges came when they were still controlled by Hatco? Sooo....now that they're independent, maybe now might be the time to ask them about doing it again?

No, I think I was too confusing. Winchester made their own decision to not make Cavanagh Edges, after Hat Corporation of America was gone in 1972. RHE Hatco in Garland, Texas, stopped making them in the 1980s. I've talked to both companies about getting them off the ground, to no avail.

Brad

 

[Tomasso]

RLK, who is probably the most experienced hat wrangler in our midst.......has commented in prior threads of this type that he feels we are prone to romanticizing the quality of vintage hats.

This is common in other sections of the FLounge as well.

 

[Mulceber]

No, I think I was too confusing. Winchester made their own decision to not make Cavanagh Edges, after Hat Corporation of America was gone in 1972. RHE Hatco in Garland, Texas, stopped making them in the 1980s. I've talked to both companies about getting them off the ground, to no avail.

Brad

Hmm...next time I'm at Optimo, I might broach the issue with Tiffani. Optimo does have a thing for making hats no one else will make (eg. their un-dyed silverbelly) and they do have their own private felter. It would probably be very expensive, but you never know, they might be able to swing a deal to get their felter to start producing the edge, especially what with the uptick in business they've seen lately.

-M

 

[Brad Bowers]

Hmm...next time I'm at Optimo, I might broach the issue with Tiffani. Optimo does have a thing for making hats no one else will make (eg. their un-dyed silverbelly) and they do have their own private felter. It would probably be very expensive, but you never know, they might be able to swing a deal to get their felter to start producing the edge, especially what with the uptick in business they've seen lately.

-M

My guess is that Graham has already asked Fepsa about it. He was pestering Winchester to make Cavanagh Edges long before I came on the scene. If you hear anything new, let us know!

Brad

 

[Mulceber]

Yeah, I'd agree that the odds aren't great. Still, never hurts to ask.

-M

 

[alanfgag]

Moving from the Cavanagh edge, can (are) these more modest edge treatments be duplicated today? From Borsalino c.1950:

 

[tonyb]

^^^^

Yowza, yowza, yowza!

I may be tempted at some point to sacrifice a beater body or two and attempt a "wafer" edge, as seen on some old Stetson Flagship models. I believe it was made by cutting the brim about half an inch wider than it would be on the finished hat. Then the last inch or so of brim was sanded down to substantially reduce its thickness, and then it was folded over on top of itself (resulting in that roughly half inch lesser brim width) and then stitched down with three rows of stitches. The hardest part, I would think, would be setting up the machinery to reduce that thickness evenly and neatly all around the outer portion of the brim.

 

[fedoracentric]

I think this discussion went badly off the rails.

The question was "in what era were the best hats in America made"?

It was not asking about "European made."

Secondly, the question was diluted by a certain modern propensity toward nihilism.

The question was what era were the best hats made, not in what era were all hats perfect.

In NO era have all hats been the best quality. There are always companies that will make the worst, rock-bottom, super cheap products sacrificing the best materials (and that is not to mention shortages because of war) to get the cheapest price.

The question was in what era were the best hats made.

That would completely exclude our modern times for all the reasons everyone else noted--cost and market needs being the biggest factors.

But, TheDane said it best when he said, "Wouldn't that make any debate on any issue obsolete - and meaningless," if we just assume that there is no right, no wrong, no fact and no truth (something Tonyb implied) then any discussion is utterly pointless and a waste of time.

This is a modern invention, sadly. It was an effort to destroy authority of opinion. It is the idea that everything is undercut because there are exceptions to every rule. Because "some" this or that doesn't fit the general rule, why, gosh, that must mean there are no rules, no truths, no facts. This is a WWI era fiction created by nihilists wishing to destroy the status quo. It was a conscious effort to undermine societies and it continues to this day.

Anyway, the era when the best hats were made was between 1900 and 1940. That is my opinion. The best hats with the highest quality came from this era. Hats before that were of a different stripe and hats after that began to seriously slide in finery and expertise as companies drastically cut costs.

 

[mayserwegener]

>>It was not asking about "European made."

Point taken.

 

[tonyb]

...

But, TheDane said it best when he said, "Wouldn't that make any debate on any issue obsolete - and meaningless," if we just assume that there is no right, no wrong, no fact and no truth (something Tonyb implied) then any discussion is utterly pointless and a waste of time. ...

I implied nothing of the sort, so please don't ascribe motives to me.

There is indeed expertise in this world, and some opinions are much better informed than others. No reasonable person would dispute that, just as no reasonable person would dispute that people "know" a lot that they really don't. Or what they honestly thought they knew, or what they thought it meant, turned out to be something less than accurate.