In what era were the best hats in America made?

[mayserwegener]

Everything I wrote is based on documented research. I am fairly certain it would hold up under careful scrutiny.

 

[TheDane]

Tony: Wouldn't that make any debate on any issue obsolete - and meaningless? The way to get wiser is to exchange opinions and experiences - and if a person do not believe what he says/writes to be true, why should he speak or write in a debate? I don't really get your point

 

[Baron Kurtz]

We're (you, me and Manofkent) talking at crossed purposes. The early 1950s British and European hats frequently feature the cheapest garbage leather imaginable, which happens to be thin. No deep embossing, no suppleness; just crap. That's what was available in a war-ravaged continent for the lower-end hats. They really are terrible. I've seen an awful lot of these things, good ones and bad. I can honestly say that this German one, dated 1953, is the worst leather sweatband I've ever encountered ,on modern or vintage hats.

I think you misunderstand what you are looking at. The ultra thin sweatbands are actually a mark of high quality, not "cheapness." Those fine leathers did not age well past 50 years, granted, and often got brittle (but hats weren't meant to last 100 yrs after all). But to make leather that thin, supple and deeply embossed is the height of the leathermaker's art! That is why as years passed the leather got thicker and less adorned--it is because the quality fell! It did not rise.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes certainly. High end stuff always had better trimmings. I should have prefaced that I was talking strictly of lower end goods.

But this would not be the case with high end German hats from 1950s. IMO the high end German hats (say Mayser) in general were better made than there US equivalents (say Stetson) from that time period.

 

[mayserwegener]

Steve: I totally agree. As you other places have pointed out, the Germans and Austrians didn't file patents like US-manufactorers did. We know about as much about the old German and Austrian velours as we do about Stetson's VitaFelt. What was it - what did it contain - and how was it made? We don't know, and written documentation seems impossible to find

I think we are gaining ground. We know more than we did a few years ago but still many details are missing maybe never to be found. Regardless I will keep looking!

 

[alanfgag]

The title of this thread is set up for broad sweeping generalizations. I'm rather enjoying the discussion despite the obvious pitfalls and I am excited to go out and use conflating in conversation.(thank you for that Tony!)

RLK, who is probably the most experienced hat wrangler in our midst and absent from this conversation, has commented in prior threads of this type that he feels we are prone to romanticizing the quality of vintage hats. That said, I would set my time machine for 1900-1928 for my own personal fantasy shopping expedition.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Watch out or the aliens will get past your tin hat. The only editorial tightening was to refer to TonyB's post.

I would argue, having read several patents for felted edges (I don't recall how many or who fled them, but I think I got links to them from Brad B.), that a competent maker of felt bodies would be able to work up the skills "very easily". To argue that one maker's one-off effort - which produced a felted edge that was somewhat far away from the originals (one of which - a Resistol, I believe - I provided to Brad to dissect) - is proof that it can't be done is disingenuous. [edited to clarify - nothing sinister!] With effort (but still within the realm of very easily) a person conversant with the arts of making felt bodies shouldn't have too much trouble making initial prototypes then refining the process.

As far as I know, Brad once succeeded in getting Winchester to make a felted edge on old machinery. As I understood him, the result was pretty far from the old edges. The principles are very simple, but it seems like it can't be done by any living felters or hatters. Nobody knows the details anymore. I would like to see some documentation for "very easily". I guess that was an "editorial tightening"

I don't doubt, that a lot of yesterday's techniques and knowledge can be reinvented, but many of them cannot be taught - simply because the teachers are not alive anymore. The micro breweries is a little different story, as there still were lots of living master brewers who had learned the old craft - and the craft was partly kept alive by a lot of "basement-brewers" during the profession's decline. The brewing craft was very much alive in other countries, and a lot of the new micro-master-brewers went to places like The Czeck republic, where high quality beer from small breweries always had been common. We don't have equivalent isolated enclaves where felting and hatting crafts have been untouched for centuries.

I'm aware that both Optimo and Art have developed their felts in coorporation with Winchester and Fepsa over the last couple of years. But there are still a lot of earlier used materials, that are no longer available to felters and hatters. Partly due to environmental restrictions and partly because the goods are economically unprofitable to produce today. Try to read old patents and check how few of the chemicals that can be used today.

I too hope, but I'm not that optimistic

 

[mayserwegener]

Yes certainly. High end stuff always had better trimmings. I should have prefaced that I was talking strictly of lower end goods.

I was thinking that but I just wanted to make it clear. There were also the hats made in the GDR. They were usually well made but market specific (not the Mayser market).

 

[tonyb]

Tony: Wouldn't that make any debate on any issue obsolete - and meaningless? The way to get wiser is to exchange opinions and experiences - and if a person do not believe what he says/writes to be true, why should he speak or write in a debate? I don't really get your point

If you really wish to know, you have asserted, for instance, that modern hat band ribbon uses synthetics in place of the good old naturally derived rayon used in the vintage stuff, and that's what makes it inferior to the old stuff. That may well be GENERALLY true, but not absolutely so. I came across a stash of some very nice, recently made, hat band ribbon that rivals much of the vintage stuff I have in fairly large quantities. I believe the rayon in this new stuff is made from bamboo, but I'm not certain of that.

I see people asserting things about other matters of the hat that similarly may or may not be absolutely true. I have no objection to people stating an opinion, or to citing sources, or to sharing what their researching into the subject has them believing. But I'd like to see people resist making more of even the reliable information than it actually tells us.

I, as much as most, could benefit from an additional dose of humility. I am reminded of this when I recognize that tendency in others.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes indeed. Britain the same. Your Dunn & Co, Lincoln Bennett et al. (higher end) had much better felt, trimmings and liners than the likes of Hepworths (chain store, now "Next") or Willerby (credit tailors) et al.. At least 'til the 50s, that is, when Dunn went seriously downhill on their sweatbands.

We won't even talk about demobilisation hats which are notorious for their extremely low quality felt and leather. I frequently find what appear to be wool felt hats from the 30s, too. Surprisingly the sweatbands tend to be OK. Maybe they sacrificed felt quality but included a better sweatband to get a slightly better price?

 

[mayserwegener]

RLK, who is probably the most experienced hat wrangler in our midst and absent from this conversation, has commented in prior threads of this type that he feels we are prone to romanticizing the quality of vintage hats. That said, I would set my time machine for 1900-1928 for my own personal fantasy shopping expedition.

Yes we have been through this before!

By the way my view is based on specialized Euro finishes especially Austrian Velours. This would be at the very high end. I know Robert also has a keen interest in this department and I believe we are in general agreement.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

If you really wish to know, you have asserted, for instance, that modern hat band ribbon uses synthetics in place of the good old naturally derived rayon used in the vintage stuff, and that's what makes it inferior to the old stuff. That may well be GENERALLY true, but not absolutely so. I came across a stash of some very nice, recently made, hat band ribbon that rivals much of the vintage stuff I have in fairly large quantities. I believe the rayon in this new stuff is made from bamboo, but I'm not certain of that.

The idea that high quality grosgrain ribbon is not currently manufactured is absurd on its face. The couture fashion industry would be on its knees without it. That people don't know where to source it, and that it is expensive, are undoubted. Also, rayon is rayon is rayon. Synthetic rayon is by definition not rayon. Rayon is the ba***rd son of the natural and chemical fabric industries, but at root is plant cellulose. If it isn't, it's not rayon!

This is a bit fancy for hatbands, but one of the grosgrain fabrics I like to use.

 

[mayserwegener]

We're (you, me and Manofkent) talking at crossed purposes. The early 1950s British and European hats frequently feature the cheapest garbage leather imaginable, which happens to be thin. No deep embossing, no suppleness; just crap. That's what was available in a war-ravaged continent for the lower-end hats. They really are terrible. I've seen an awful lot of these things, good ones and bad. I can honestly say that this German one, dated 1953, is the worst leather sweatband I've ever encountered ,on modern or vintage hats.

I have seen even worse on low end German wool hats of that time period (and earlier).

 

[tonyb]

I'm glad you made the point Baron. I was fairly certain that there is no such thing as "synthetic rayon," as rayon is, by definition, a fiber derived from plant cellulose. But, in keeping with my newly adopted mantra, I didn't wish to assert that without greater certainty. I mean, I'm certainly no expert, after all.

 

[facade]

This sort of topic is ripe for opinion and disagreement. I myself enjoy talking with people who have different or strongly held opinions. However I recognize that opinions can lead to argument rather than discussion. In hopes of avoiding things devolving into rancor, I would offer the following suggestion.

Be as opinionated as you want, but try and avoid giving the impression that your goal is to prove someone else wrong.

 

[Brad Bowers]

And since my "Winchester Edge" lol hat body came up in the conversation, I'll add that it had been 20 years since Richard had last made a Cavanagh Edge. While not perfect (and it was not supposed to be, as it was for demonstration purposes only), it's still nice enough that I've often considered taking the hat body and completing a hat with it, even though it was never meant for that purpose.

The skills required to make the Cavanagh Edge can be reacquired by felters, it's just that the factory owners feel that the low demand versus the high labor cost (and resulting consumer price) does not justify their production, and they've got a good point. Beyond vintage enthusiasts, there is no demand for Cavanagh Edges amongst the hat buying public. Even if the hat was offered for $500 or $1000, I've been told by Gary Rosenthal at Hatco that he has no interest in pursuing them. Let me revise that: Some of the employees at Hatco (and Winchester) were intrigued and wanted to learn the process so they could offer Cavanagh Edges again, but were told "No" by management.

Brad

 

[TheDane]

It's not a tin hat. It's made out of tin-foil. Tin is to thick to really work - and then, tin is not what it used to be, either lol

We have probably read the same patents, and the principles seems so very simple. So do a lot of next to impossible things. When Winchester is not able to felt an edge, it's not at all proof, that it can't be done. But to me it clearly shows, that it can't be done "very easily". To hold the edge in the absolutely right place from the moment, just after the hood leaves the felting cone - all the way through blocking was not in any way an easy task. With a normal edge you can "rescue" a lot with the rounding jack. A felted edge can not be trimmed. Without the all accumulated knowledge, the old masters gained through thousands of errors, I strongly believe it'll be "very hard" to replicate a felted edge today.

Most patents (also the ones concerning hatter processes) are not particularly detailed. If they were, it would be all to easy to develope an alternative technique. It's a way to protect your product even further. As Steve stated, German and Austrian hat companies instead chose to avoid the patent process altogether. The lacking details often make processes and techniques look so much simpler, than they actually are.

Steve and I have been running through some old patents on chemical treatment of velour bodies. At first they seem so simple and well-explained, but the more you dive into the details, you discover more and more issues, that are not explained - or even hinted. I have even gone through some of them together with a chemist, and her opinion was, that the 90% of the processes still were to be explained, if it were to be duplicated. In theory there is no difference between "theory" and "practice". In practice, it's quite another matter

None of us know what will happen in the future - but beliefs have always supplied interesting matter for debates [huh]

 

[TheDane]

I am reminded of this when I recognize that tendency in others.

lol :eusa_clap point taken!

I stand corrected on both the rayon and the edge, Brad had made at Winchester! I have really tried hard to find rayon made on cellulose, and have only been able to find stiffer rayon (sold as, whether it is or not) from synthetized fibres. The result of my own investigations has only been confirmed by what I have read on the subject. Thanks for putting me right on that

 

[Brad Bowers]

Most patents (also the ones concerning hatter processes) are not particularly detailed. If they were, it would be all to easy to develope an alternative technique. It's a way to protect your product even further. As Steve stated, German and Austrian hat companies instead chose to avoid the patent process altogether. The lacking details often make processes and techniques look so much simpler, than they actually are.

Exactly! Crofut & Knapp once stated that the Cavanagh Edge process involved 32 separate steps, most of which don't come across in the reading of the patent. I suspect that the 32-step process might be a bit of advertising hyperbole, but it certainly was not as simple as the patent made it out to be.

Brad

 

[alanfgag]

On the subject of rayon, the Hawes Von Gal posted earlier in this thread (circa 1903) and the Cheyenne western (later in that decade) both utilize a silk ribbon and bow. These hats were manufactured before rayon became widely available as a substitute for silk. I think you can get some sense from photo just how special a material this is. Did it become too expensive compared to rayon, or was the aesthetic of the stiffer rayon ribbon more manly?