Himel Bros jacket, 1st winter update

[Aloysius]

For all my dislike of Himel's marketing and the bespoke lie (yes, it's a lie; how anyone can say otherwise after the "bespoke" bucket hats I can't understand), I will say this.

I can understand how that would be frustrating for him because surely once you've accepted goods you get a chance to look them over. When I got a Vanson recently whose sleeve was stitched on oddly, I sent it back. It had been maybe three days since buying it.

Now Himel is in a very different price bracket from Vanson, and markets himself as the very best, not like those awful low 'stitch count' lesser jackets. Still, I do think that a few weeks after a sale, a seller has assumed the buyer is implicitly fine with the quality of the product.

There's absolutely a QC problem here, but it's understandable that a seller would be confused that it's being raised a year later, which is often the case for these Himel issues.

 

[jeo]

I agree but this is business and he is not handling it professionally. You can't let emotions dictate how you handle customers.
Its inexcusable to say that you will not respond to emails because I left an unfavorable review, customers are allowed to do that

I do not want a refund, I just want him to remake my jacket properly as he advertises. That's why I took screenshots of those YouTube videos, they clearly tell you what you should expect from a Himel Bros jacket.

I'll leave this thread alone and wait for his reply.

If it was just a review then fine.

But from his perspective it’s like you’re trying to use this “complaint platform” to get what you want. I’m sure you can see that he probably views that as a shakedown of sorts.

If a remake is what you wanted in the first place, you should have reached out to him first.

It is kind of like my story all over again and I will admit here to everyone that I made mistakes and I should have handled it differently.

This post is not to condemn or to scold you in anyway whatsoever. People may say that was a right way to do things but it’s not always that black and white. Most people like to avoid confrontation and I completely understand that. It’s an unpleasant situation to be in. I felt the same way.

Because of that, I believe there is no right or wrong here but what Canuck said is spot on. Every word.

 

[Marc mndt]

There's absolutely a QC problem here, but it's understandable that a seller would be confused that it's being raised a year later

December '21 I bought a RRL shirt via the Ralph Lauren webshop. End of May '22 after wearing it twice I found out that the fabric on one of the sleeves wasn't folded over property at the seam before it was stitched, with the result that the fabric started to fray. I contacted Ralph Lauren customer service and they replied by asking why I contacted them 6 month after I bought the shirt and not right away. I explained to them that I only worn it twice since I bought it and therefore didn't notice the defect before. I received a full refund.

As a brand you either stand behind the quality of your product or you don't. If you do, what difference does it make whether a customer notices a construction flaw right after receiving the product or half a year later? It's still a flawed product that doesn't meet quality standards.

 

[Aloysius]

December '21 I bought a RRL shirt via the Ralph Lauren webshop. End of May '22 after wearing it twice I found out that the fabric on one of the sleeves wasn't folded over property at the seam before it was stitched, with the result of the fabric starting to fray. I contacted Ralph Lauren customer service and they replied by asking why I contacted them 6 month after I bought the shirt and not right away. I explained to them that I only worn it twice since I bought it and therefore didn't notice the defect before. I received a full refund.

As a brand you either stand behind the quality of your product or you don't. If you do, what difference does it make whether a customer notices a construction flaw right after receiving the product or half a year later? It's still a flawed product that doesn't meet quality standards.

I'm not excusing the QC issues (and the same thing happened to me with an RRL shirt, incidentally, and they were accommodating).

I'm just saying that I can understand that to him the pattern must be "people come on TFL a year later and decide my BESPOKE product was bad".

But of course, funnily enough, the sequence is more like:

1. Person comes on TFL, has a budget in mind for a normal high quality brand like Aero, Lewis, or Schott.
2. Finds about Himel through the TFL hype machine.
3. Ends up spending double/triple the budget to get one, and the size of the purchase feels like it commits the person to the Tribe
4. Tribe Kool-Aid wears off and they finally look at the jacket objectively, realizing they've been wearing something that would fail QC at the lesser brands from Item 1.

 

[MrProper]

December '21 I bought a RRL shirt via the Ralph Lauren webshop. End of May '22 after wearing it twice I found out that the fabric on one of the sleeves wasn't folded over property at the seam before it was stitched, with the result that the fabric started to fray. I contacted Ralph Lauren customer service and they replied by asking why I contacted them 6 month after I bought the shirt and not right away. I explained to them that I only worn it twice since I bought it and therefore didn't notice the defect before. I received a full refund.

As a brand you either stand behind the quality of your product or you don't. If you do, what difference does it make whether a customer notices a construction flaw right after receiving the product or half a year later? It's still a flawed product that doesn't meet quality standards.

All correct.
Nevertheless, I wonder why the pockets are being criticised now, when they were still OK on 6 November (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/himel-kensington-review-first-custom.109119/)?
In the case of hidden defects, a complaint after two years is also OK. With obvious ones too?

When I get something new, I check it for the points I don't like and complain directly, often on the same day. I have never had any problems with this and everything has been solved.
After half a year, I would either no longer complain about such an obvious fault or complain with a very good explanation.

 

[Damon141]

But from his perspective it’s like you’re trying to use this “complaint platform” to get what you want. I’m sure you can see that he probably views that as a shakedown of sorts.

If a remake is what you wanted in the first place, you should have reached out to him first.

It is kind of like my story all over again and I will admit here to everyone that I made mistakes and I should have handled it differently.

This post is not to condemn or to scold you in anyway whatsoever. People may say that was a right way to do things but it’s not always that black and white. Most people like to avoid confrontation and I completely understand that. It’s an unpleasant situation to be in. I felt the same way.

Because of that, I believe there is no right or wrong here but what Canuck said is spot on. Every word.

I didn't want to post anymore negativity but to answer your questions.


I did email him, yes I started this thread and he didn't see it, I told him (through Email) that I was unhappy with the stitching and asked opinions of experienced people.


Instead of just handling it in email form, he asked me where I found such knowledge or opinions, he asked for the link to this thread.

Obviously it wasn't a shakedown, again it was Himel who wanted to come here and I wanted to find out if my complaints were justified.
If this forum can't be used for opinions, Where else am I supposed to ask advice? My friends that shop at Zara?

It was not just a review obviously I was complaining and wanted opinions, when I used the word "review" I was just explaining that manufacturers should not get upset for posting negative feedback, information, complaints, venting etc. in a broad sense

December '21 I bought a RRL shirt via the Ralph Lauren webshop. End of May '22 after wearing it twice I found out that the fabric on one of the sleeves wasn't folded over property at the seam before it was stitched, with the result that the fabric started to fray. I contacted Ralph Lauren customer service and they replied by asking why I contacted them 6 month after I bought the shirt and not right away. I explained to them that I only worn it twice since I bought it and therefore didn't notice the defect before. I received a full refund.

As a brand you either stand behind the quality of your product or you don't. If you do, what difference does it make whether a customer notices a construction flaw right after receiving the product or half a year later? It's still a flawed product that doesn't meet quality standards.

Exactly, that's how big business is done, nothing personal just stand behind your brand

I'm not excusing the QC issues (and the same thing happened to me with an RRL shirt, incidentally, and they were accommodating).

I'm just saying that I can understand that to him the pattern must be "people come on TFL a year later and decide my BESPOKE product was bad".

But of course, funnily enough, the sequence is more like:

1. Person comes on TFL, has a budget in mind for a normal high quality brand like Aero, Lewis, or Schott.
2. Finds about Himel through the TFL hype machine.
3. Ends up spending double/triple the budget to get one, and the size of the purchase feels like it commits the person to the Tribe
4. Tribe Kool-Aid wears off and they finally look at the jacket objectively, realizing they've been wearing something that would fail QC at the lesser brands from Item 1.

I didn't really have a budget, I liked the Kensington and I bought it. Looked at many other brands.

If it was about money then in ask for refund, I just want a jacket I know he can make, one that he advertises.

Like I explained earlier, I was unsure what to do, didn't want to deal with the confrontation (I've seen other threads). I was just embarrassed that I pair so much and received a 2nd quality jacket. As time passed gaining information and knowledge, I know from better experience that this jacket should not have made it out of the shop.

All correct.
Nevertheless, I wonder why the pockets are being criticised now, when they were still OK on 6 November (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/himel-kensington-review-first-custom.109119/)?
In the case of hidden defects, a complaint after two years is also OK. With obvious ones too?

When I get something new, I check it for the points I don't like and complain directly, often on the same day. I have never had any problems with this and everything has been solved.
After half a year, I would either no longer complain about such an obvious fault or complain with a very good explanation.

I could have done this earlier, but that does not excuse this from leaving the shop. I made this thread because I was unsure if my complaints were justified, if the work was bad. I haven't handled the numbers of jackets as you.
I am hearing a lot of " you should have". and I get that but the problem is still here right now, tomorrow, 10 years from now.
I didn't want to offend anyone, even Himel, it's just a piece of clothing, if it isn't made up to standards then replace it with one that is. Dave Himel didn't even stitch the jacket and there is a good chance he wasn't there when it shipped. So it should not offend him.

 

[Tom71]

All correct.
Nevertheless, I wonder why the pockets are being criticised now, when they were still OK on 6 November (https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/himel-kensington-review-first-custom.109119/)?
In the case of hidden defects, a complaint after two years is also OK. With obvious ones too?

When I get something new, I check it for the points I don't like and complain directly, often on the same day. I have never had any problems with this and everything has been solved.
After half a year, I would either no longer complain about such an obvious fault or complain with a very good explanation.

Yes.

All I can add to that is that in any event I would complain to the vendor directly and in a solution-focussed way.
Not publicly. For all the reasons @Canuck Panda stated.

These sort of threads all go the way of social media these days: a shit show for the amusement of people without a relevant stake in the matter at hand.

I feel equally sorry for the OP who received an obviously flawed product that he now feels unhappy about and for Himel who’s business and livelyhood are at risk here.
He performed some spectacular ****-ups in terms of crisis management sure. But the members most vocal about this leave at lot to be desired in terms of communicatory skills themselves.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

I think @Canuck Panda nailed it. Nothing is going to be gained here. No matter what Dave says is going to change most of the minds against him. But I totally understand why he would want to defend himself here since this thread has gone from issues with this specific jacket to very broad statements about his brand, his customers, etc. And I also understand the pain of having spent really good money on something that you now regret because it's not living up to the promise/hype/baseline expectation/etc. etc.

I own a HB Avro. Bought it used for a great price. So maybe my .02 doesn't mean as much. But that's in my top 3 jacket as far as what I really care about (leather quality, fit, pattern, hardware). I'll give it a microscope look this weekend out of curiosity to see how many stitching issues I find, but truth be told, unless it's something detrimental to the structure of the jacket, I probably won't care. Not saying others shouldn't care, but it's not my pain point.

I just think it's funny that if I'm happy with my purchase, I'm somehow some mindless mouth breather that's in a cult. LOL. So much definitive speak in these forums lately. You guys know it's clothes right? Never knew there was such absolute answers about many of the things we talk about.

 

[Mich486]

I wouldn’t be happy at all with that jacket and the problem is there to see, stitching quality is subpar in those areas no arguing.

But… the timing is weird… also reading back your original review it seems you were aware of these flaws from day one. What made you change your mind now? Why didn’t you reach out to him first? Don’t know dude…

 

[Marc mndt]

In the case of hidden defects, a complaint after two years is also OK. With obvious ones too?

Good question. Personally I'd say no, after x amount of time you as the customer have accepted the product.

But from a professional perspective some companies go about this differently. I've worked as a sales associate for several high end luxury brands. Some of them would take back products that didn't meet qc standard years after they were bought. Usually if more than a year had past since the item was bought they didn't issue a refund but instead offered a replacement item.

Hermès didn't even sell factory seconds to their own employees because they did not want to take the risk of those items entering the market, afraid their brand image might get harmed.

 

[Damon141]

I was told not to expect perfection because it's handmade versus off the rack because it's made in a different style, one person usually in one shot versus sectioned out to multiple machinist.

This is a key reason which I didn't say anything earlier, this is what was said to me, we actually had a little conversation about how other manufacturers do things, Dave is very knowledgeable and I was picking his brain for information.

So i didn't know what was an acceptable margin of error. I had since come forward privately and was told these were unacceptable.

 

[jeo]

I didn't want to post anymore negativity but to answer your questions.


I did email him, yes I started this thread and he didn't see it, I told him (through Email) that I was unhappy with the stitching and asked opinions of experienced people.


Instead of just handling it in email form, he asked me where I found such knowledge or opinions, he asked for the link to this thread.

What negativity?

I saw the issue from your perspective and the “shakedown” thing is me trying to see it from his perspective.

I still don’t understand what came first, emailing him or the thread came first or was it done at the same time?

Either way my point was that you should have reached out to him privately and either get a resolution or not get a resolution before you come on a public platform.

That would have been the right thing to do. But I will state again, it’s not always that black and white. That’s me trying to see this from your perspective.

That’s exactly what I did. I reached out to him privately first. My mistake is that I did not show him the totality of my jacket. Maybe I would have gotten a different resolution if I had.

It was completely different reasons why I ended up making my thread back then and even then I was struggling with it tremendously! It was only the support of the amazing people on this forum that helps me realize that I must share honestly and therefore decided to make the thread.

I hope that a similar resolution is achieved here, for both yours and his sake.

 

[Damon141]

What negativity?

I saw the issue from your perspective and the “shakedown” thing is me trying to see it from his perspective.

I still don’t understand what came first, emailing him or the thread came first or was it done at the same time?

Either way my point was that you should have reached out to him privately and either get a resolution or not get a resolution before you come on a public platform.

I asked someone privately who said it was unacceptable, then I asked more opinions/venting here. Basically at the same time emailed him like you said

 

[Aloysius]

I just think it's funny that if I'm happy with my purchase, I'm somehow some mindless mouth breather that's in a cult. LOL.

I’m not saying that. I’m saying that there’s a really strong social media culture around the Himel #Tribe that’s probably only matched by Iron Heart UK in ‘our world’ and by pop culture fandoms outside of it.

You bought as an informed consumer.

There are however countless people who especially in the workwear world get sucked into the vortex of a brand or store and realize later that they were getting stuff they don’t even want/had issues/was overpriced etc. Workwear is a strange subculture in that people get dopamine hits off of stuff that would be incomprehensible outside of it.

 

[ton312]

I think @Canuck Panda nailed it. Nothing is going to be gained here. No matter what Dave says is going to change most of the minds against him. But I totally understand why he would want to defend himself here since this thread has gone from issues with this specific jacket to very broad statements about his brand, his customers, etc. And I also understand the pain of having spent really good money on something that you now regret because it's not living up to the promise/hype/baseline expectation/etc. etc.

I own a HB Avro. Bought it used for a great price. So maybe my .02 doesn't mean as much. But that's in my top 3 jacket as far as what I really care about (leather quality, fit, pattern, hardware). I'll give it a microscope look this weekend out of curiosity to see how many stitching issues I find, but truth be told, unless it's something detrimental to the structure of the jacket, I probably won't care. Not saying others shouldn't care, but it's not my pain point.

I just think it's funny that if I'm happy with my purchase, I'm somehow some mindless mouth breather that's in a cult. LOL. So much definitive speak in these forums lately. You guys know it's clothes right? Never knew there was such absolute answers about many of the things we talk about.

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t your first 5 Star jacket have similar defects? I do recall you had stitching issues with that jacket. If memory serves these were a pain point for you, enough to write the company off entirely and a full
custom from them is priced at 10% of the jacket in question here. What changed?

 

[ton312]

Another point, as far as being honest goes and calling out issues….sometimes we lie to ourselves. Fit, build quality, whatever. I’ve seen it from every member here, myself included. These are large investment pieces. We WANT to believe they are worth every Penny. In some cases it does take time to realize the outcome is not worth the expense. Depending on where the fault lies, this shouldn’t be a concern at all.

 

[Aloysius]

Hell, I made a thread about jackets that don’t fit but we keep anyway.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t your first 5 Star jacket have similar defects? I do recall you had stitching issues with that jacket. If memory serves these were a pain point for you, enough to write the company off entirely and a full
custom from them is priced at 10% of the jacket in question here. What changed?

damn you got crazy memory. But not crazy enough issue was the color of the thread not the stitch count. That was actually quite impressive. There might have been a wobble or two on a few spots. They told me there was two different shades of green based on whether it was top stitch or not, but yet in various places the color I wanted was used as top stitch in certain places (IIRC, the X marks on the hanging piece near the collar). Basically it was more khaki than olive creating more a contrast look I didn't want. There was also a massive QC issue in that they left some glue paper around the pocket that I had to carefully extract with a sharp knife and I didn't get much of a response from the guy there.

 

[willyto]

Ah here we go again. Blaming the unhappy client.

 

[ton312]

damn you got crazy memory. But not crazy enough issue was the color of the thread not the stitch count. That was actually quite impressive. There might have been a wobble or two on a few spots. They told me there was two different shades of green based on whether it was top stitch or not, but yet in various places the color I wanted was used as top stitch in certain places (IIRC, the X marks on the hanging piece near the collar). Basically it was more khaki than olive creating more a contrast look I didn't want. There was also a massive QC issue in that they left some glue paper around the pocket that I had to carefully extract with a sharp knife and I didn't get much of a response from the guy there.

Ah ok. I don’t remember exactly but I do remember the stitching was an issue. Can hardly blame a guy who paid $2650 or more for a “Top Tier” custom piece for not being happy with failed DUI stitching then. I mean, I gave most of my 5 Stars away for free. I couldn’t have cared less as the input matched the output. But in this case….