Formal Wear Primer

[Midnight Blue]

Page two of this thread:


This made me think that a cummerbund shouldn't be worn with braces.

I see where your confusion comes from. However, that advice is wrong for the reasons I have already pointed out. (If it was true then men would have stopped wearing braces with their evening clothes back in the 1920s when the cummerbund was introduced. That's hardly the case.)

 

[avedwards]

But even on your website you say that a modern alternative is waist adjusters, providing one is slim enough to carry this off. I personally found that with me it worked fine, as my trousers stayed where I wanted them to all evening.

 

[David V]

But even on your website you say that a modern alternative is waist adjusters, providing one is slim enough to carry this off. I personally found that with me it worked fine, as my trousers stayed where I wanted them to all evening.

The operative phrase was "...shouldn't be worn... "

 

[avedwards]

The operative phrase was "...shouldn't be worn... "

But I thought the only reason for wearing braces is a practical one. On the Black Tie Guide it says that if you can afford tailored trousers you don't need to necessarily wear braces. I don't have tailored trousers, but mine fit just as well as tailored ones would, hence I see no need why I need to wear braces (plus my trousers lack the buttons).

 

[Midnight Blue]

But I thought the only reason for wearing braces is a practical one. On the Black Tie Guide it says that if you can afford tailored trousers you don't need to necessarily wear braces. I don't have tailored trousers, but mine fit just as well as tailored ones would, hence I see no need why I need to wear braces (plus my trousers lack the buttons).

Sure, if your trousers stay in place without braces then you can certainly get by without the braces.

I am just trying to make the point that braces and cummerbunds serve entirely different roles because so many Americans mistakenly believe that they serve the same purpose. In other words, suspend the waist any way you want (except a belt, of course) and cover the waist any way you want. Just be sure you do both.

 

[avedwards]

Sure, if your trousers stay in place without braces then you can certainly get by without the braces.

I am just trying to make the point that braces and cummerbunds serve entirely different roles because so many Americans mistakenly believe that they serve the same purpose. In other words, suspend the waist any way you want (except a belt, of course) and cover the waist any way you want. Just be sure you do both.

In that case, even if my DJ is not very classic I did the right thing by keeping my waistline in the right place and wearing a cummerbund. The notched lapel DJ is slightly more contraversial.

 

[Orgetorix]

Original case or not, "NOS" or not, one should never wear a notched lapel dinner jacket. Peaked is the way. It's better to wear a velvet smoking jacket (which may have a notched lapel) than an incorrect notched lapel on one's dinner jacket...In short, it is better to be insouciantly under-dressed than stylistically and traditionally incorrectly dressed.

There is absolutely, positively no possible way that anyone can legitimately argue that notch lapels are historically "incorrect." Not as far as United States sartorial history is concerned. They have, quite simply, been around as long as Americans have been wearing dinner jackets. Period photos, catalogs, and advertisements bear this out, as they show them as early as the first decade of the 20th century. Maybe earlier. Here's a 1927 catalog page, just for example:

Argue, if you like, that they weren't as common as peaks or shawls in the prewar era. I admit it. I have a 1902 photo where the notch lapel wearer is outnumbered 15 to 1 by peaks and shawls. But there is one there, and he's no less appropriately dressed than the others.

Argue, if you like, that they aren't as elegant as a peak or shawl lapel. I agree with you. Notch lapels sometimes seem a bit too much like a business suit. I think there's nothing as elegant as a well-cut peak-lapel dinner jacket ensemble.

Argue, if you like, that notch-lapel dinner jackets are an unfortunate Americanization, a sartorial maladaptation of something the British have always done better. Ok, maybe. I'm a bit of an Anglophile myself. But the fact that I like my suits with double vents doesn't mean I won't wear one with a single vent, or that I'll tell people they're incorrect if they do.

Just don't try to argue that a notch-lapel jacket is somehow "incorrect" or inappropriate. It's a perfectly acceptable option with over a hundred years of precedent. It may be the red-headed stepchild of the evening formalwear clan, but it's certainly a legitimate member of the family.


Not sorry for the rant.

 

[jamespowers]

I was going to post that ad for clarification but I see you beat me to it.
I have another around from 1916 as well. They were around that is for sure.
There were many choices. I have a long cleric as pictured in that ad as well---however I doubt I will ever wear it in a formal situation.

 

[draws]

Building a formal evening black tie wardrobe

I am in the process of building a black tie formal evening suit for my wardrobe. My primary goal is to acquire the following:

1. Peaked Lapel SB 2 button black tie evening suit
2. Collarless bib front marcella shirt with double cuffs
3. Wing collars (Windsor?) that are washable and durable
4. Black self-tie bow tie
5. White Marcella 3 button waistcoat (more formal white waistcoat preferred)
6. White braces
7. Shoes and stockings
8. Matching black cuff links, waistcoat and shirt studs

There are many very nice peaked lapel suits available and I should not have any problem purchasing an almost new suit for a reasonable price

Bow Ties, braces, shoes and stockings are not a problem.

The primary concern is buying a quality collarless stiff bib-front marcella shirt with double cuffs as well as wing collars.
I have purchased matching black cufflinks and shirt studs but will need to pick up collar studs and black waistcoat studs.

I am looking for vendor suggestions for these items and also suggestions on my selection process. Any and all ideas and leads would be greatly appreciated.

 

[anon`]

...The primary concern is buying a quality collarless stiff bib-front marcella shirt with double cuffs as well as wing collars...

...I am looking for vendor suggestions for these items and also suggestions on my selection process. Any and all ideas and leads would be greatly appreciated.

The Vintage Shirt Company seems to be a well-regarded source around here. In fact, I think they're the only source of modern boiled-front tunics I've found to date, come to think of it...

Being based on the UK, prices aren't that hot for a US buyer, but the construction of the pieces seem to be appropriate.

Specific items of interest include the boiled-front shirt; a pageful of collars, some stiff and in need of specialist laundry (which no longer appears to exist in the the US... the shirt will require this, as well) and some soft and washable; and a white Marcella waistcoat.

(A though on shirt cuffs: they should be single and take links. In the early days of the tuxedo a black tie was paired with the boiled-front shirt and white waistcoat worn with traditional evening wear. That shirt would always have single cuffs fastened with links. A boiled shirt with double cuffs would be one of those sartorial half-breeds that doesn't really belong anywhere. A soft-front shirt is a different story, but I think a white waistcoat would go better with the boiled-front shirt. But that's just my NSHO.)

 

[draws]

The Vintage Shirt Company seems to be a well-regarded source around here. In fact, I think they're the only source of modern boiled-front tunics I've found to date, come to think of it...

Being based on the UK, prices aren't that hot for a US buyer, but the construction of the pieces seem to be appropriate.

Specific items of interest include the boiled-front shirt; a pageful of collars, some stiff and in need of specialist laundry (which no longer appears to exist in the the US... the shirt will require this, as well) and some soft and washable; and a white Marcella waistcoat.

(A though on shirt cuffs: they should be single and take links. In the early days of the tuxedo a black tie was paired with the boiled-front shirt and white waistcoat worn with traditional evening wear. That shirt would always have single cuffs fastened with links. A boiled shirt with double cuffs would be one of those sartorial half-breeds that doesn't really belong anywhere. A soft-front shirt is a different story, but I think a white waistcoat would go better with the boiled-front shirt. But that's just my NSHO.)

Thank you, Anon'. I have visited the vintageshirt.co.uk website and fully agree that they do have a very nice selection of shirts and collars. I will take your advice and follow up with them.

My thought of going with a double cuff is that I had read in this or another forum (can't remember) that the double cuff is preferable for black tuxedo since it is more elegant but not for white tie (tails). I thought that that was reasonable but would accept your view here as well. Any other thoughts are appreciated.

 

[dnjan]

The notched lapels were something which bothered me but the opinions seemed to be very mixed as to whether they were simply a less popular alternative to peaked lapels or a faux pas. As soon as I can I would like to get a shawl lapel one as one can't go wrong with it, plus a turn down collar won't look as out of place with it as it might on a peaked lapel DJ.

I am glad the the photos showing notched lapels have recently been posted.
I, for one, do not really like the appearance of a shawl lapel on a person (like myself) of relatively slender build. To me, it makes my shoulders look even narrower.
At the same time, I am not thrilled by the appearance of a peak lapel with turned-down collar and cumberbund. So for myself, I prefer notched lapel, turned-down collar and cumberbund for more casual black-tie and peak lapel, up collar and waistcoat for the "real" black tie.
I know - this is not in accordance with the mainstream thought presented here already, but I think it works best for me in both appearance and comfort.

 

[Richard Warren]

Brooks Brothers sells the shirts, collars, and vests that you describe. The collars are pretty low.

If you can, get a single button jacket.

 

[draws]

Brooks Brothers sells the shirts, collars, and vests that you describe. The collars are pretty low.

If you can, get a single button jacket.

I see that the prices of vintageshirt.co.uk shirts and collars are a bit pricey but their quality is quite exceptional. This is a factor for me but does not limit my selection in any way. I assume the single button jacket would be more acceptable so as not to limit the exposure of the waistcoat and makes sense.

What color should the waistcoat buttons be? I assume black since that would conform to the shirt studs and cufflinks. Any thoughts here?

What recommendations would anyone make concerning the fit of the trousers?

 

[jamespowers]

You can certainly get at least the bowtie, studs and cufflinks on the Bay. There are deals to be had there now on some decent choices.
I like the white silk braces put out by Trafalgar. Shop around and you can get them for a reasonable price. The elastic things are just not as comfortable as the silk braces.

 

[Richard Warren]

I believe I have read that choice of color and material for the buttons on the white waistcoat (when such things were more commonly worn) was an area in which some individuality was allowed, and colored jeweled or enameled buttons (technically studs?) were seen. I just use the removable white cloth buttons that came with the vest. I have never seen or heard of studs for sale, but have seen pictures of sets of them on the internet.

 

[draws]

You can certainly get at least the bowtie, studs and cufflinks on the Bay. There are deals to be had there now on some decent choices.
I like the white silk braces put out by Trafalgar. Shop around and you can get them for a reasonable price. The elastic things are just not as comfortable as the silk braces.

I did pick up a nice self-tie bow tie for total $2.50 on the Bay and did also manage to buy a nice set of black onyx/silver colored shirt studs/cuff links for $3.50 (both include shipping).

Any opinion on the waistcoat stud color? Would pearl/black both be appropriate or should the color match the shirt studs? I'm thinking that either would be ok but I am not certain.

 

[jamespowers]

I did pick up a nice self-tie bow tie for total $2.50 on the Bay and did also manage to buy a nice set of black onyx/silver colored shirt studs/cuff links for $3.50 (both include shipping).

Any opinion on the waistcoat stud color? Would pearl/black both be appropriate or should the color match the shirt studs? I'm thinking that either would be ok but I am not certain.

Nice buys there.
Thw waistcoat stud color could be either as far as I am concerned. I have both and have worn both. I have one that came with pear buttons on it.

 

[avedwards]

There is absolutely, positively no possible way that anyone can legitimately argue that notch lapels are historically "incorrect." Not as far as United States sartorial history is concerned. They have, quite simply, been around as long as Americans have been wearing dinner jackets. Period photos, catalogs, and advertisements bear this out, as they show them as early as the first decade of the 20th century. Maybe earlier. Here's a 1927 catalog page, just for example:

Argue, if you like, that they weren't as common as peaks or shawls in the prewar era. I admit it. I have a 1902 photo where the notch lapel wearer is outnumbered 15 to 1 by peaks and shawls. But there is one there, and he's no less appropriately dressed than the others.

Argue, if you like, that they aren't as elegant as a peak or shawl lapel. I agree with you. Notch lapels sometimes seem a bit too much like a business suit. I think there's nothing as elegant as a well-cut peak-lapel dinner jacket ensemble.

Argue, if you like, that notch-lapel dinner jackets are an unfortunate Americanization, a sartorial maladaptation of something the British have always done better. Ok, maybe. I'm a bit of an Anglophile myself. But the fact that I like my suits with double vents doesn't mean I won't wear one with a single vent, or that I'll tell people they're incorrect if they do.

Just don't try to argue that a notch-lapel jacket is somehow "incorrect" or inappropriate. It's a perfectly acceptable option with over a hundred years of precedent. It may be the red-headed stepchild of the evening formalwear clan, but it's certainly a legitimate member of the family.


Not sorry for the rant.

Thank you for this . I can now be more comfortable with my DJ. Whether notched lapels look good or not is something that every member on here will probably have a different opinion on, but at least they're acceptable.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

1. Peaked Lapel SB 2-button black tie evening suit.

IMO, go for a 1-button tuxedo instead. Two buttons say "business suit pretending to be a tuxedo."


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