Formal Wear Primer

[Evan Everhart]

I just got back my cream palm beach dinner jacket from the tailor...Whatcha think?

I think that I'd've worn it with either a burgundy/plum/maroon what have your solid coloured pocket scarf or, a black one and, I think that I would talk to the tailor about definitely shortening the sleeves to be at least a half to quarter inch short of your wrist bone and wearing cuffs that are fitted and slim but fitted to come exactly to point of bending between your lower arm and hand. I would also ask that the tailor fit the torso of the coat better so that it gives a true hour-glass fit as it ought to with it slightly fitted inward under the behind and more fitted in and smoothly so around the mid-section. It sounds as if it might give one an effeminate silhouette but, it does not and that really is how coats were tailored back then. Other than that, I LOVE it! Great look man! Have you considered a batwing bow tie with it, the kind with the pointed ends? I have a lovely semi-matte nailhead weave one from this one vintage store in Burbank out here in Cali. Its a bit narrow but very svelte. Awesome look!

 

[Evan Everhart]

Would any of the folks here comment on buttons for dinner jacket sleeves?
I've found myself w/ a new (never tailored) Dinner Jacket & the sleeve buttons were supplied in a small pouch in the pocket. I know that normal suits can have - as a somewhat higher-end option - buttonholes which are cut through & buttons sewn on so they actually are functional. Is there an equivalent for formal wear? The illustrations I've seen seem to show rather loosely sewn on buttons that are non-functional.

BTW. this is not any attempt to be vintage styled of any era, just a decent looking dinner jacket.

Many thanks for any help.

If you really want a "decent looking" dinner jacket then, you really must be somewhat period as what we consider good taste for most of our modern wardrobe is completely rooted more or less in the styles of the 1930s. So, that said, are the buttons plastic or or covered in either black or white mohair respectively as the coat or, are they silk satin or gross grain matching whatever respective material is used for pocket besoming and lower lapel covering? If the buttons are not fabric covered, I would highly suggest that you speak to your tailor and have them first off fit the jacket so that only a finger to two fingers max are able to fit between the space behind the buttons when buttoned up and your torso. I would next have the sleeves taken in on the upper arms a bit but not fitted too much below the elbow and even at that, the taper should flare out somewhat toward the cuff. Make sure that you have a competent tailor do the back fitting as many will argue with you about fit or are incompetent regarding doing a graceful fit that does not bunch up. After all of this is done, make sure that the sleeves also stop at least a quarter inch above the natural wrist so that when worn it displays a respectable amount of shirt cuff which is a sign of gentility and 'class'. Once the cuffs are seen to and altered, have the buttons done. By the by, if your tailor doesn't offer to pin the garment for you while you wear it (the fitting should be done while wearing a white shirt with French cuffs so that you can have it fitted properly as you will be wearing it with French cuffs) please request that he does! That, or find a new and better tailor. Anyhow, see to the cuffs like that and see where you feel comfortable with them. A quick hint; the taller you are the more discreet your should be with your cuffs in that they need not and should not protrude as far as if one were short or average height as it will make him appear ungainly and as if his clothes are too small for him - a goofy look. A short person conversely ought to have a great deal of cuff showing and extremely fitted clothes even towards tight (unless they are rotund) as it will make them appear more athletic and taller! A man of average height must as the term used to describe his height implies, be average more or less in his choice of fit though, idiosyncrasies of mannerism and or taste in one area of dress or another can certainly aid in displaying one's personality and even become the calling card of a personality if that is desired. Basically if one is average height, not too much and not too little and still everything fitted, of course, but, not necessarily as ultra fitted as is more needful and advisable for a shorter individual. Good luck upon your dinner jacket sir and I hope that you'll put up a picture of it! By the by, is it single or double breasted or what and what kind of lapels etc? If its single breasted, I hope that it only has one button on the front and I also hope it doesn't have those horrid notched travesties for lapels...Anyhow, good luck!

 

[Evan Everhart]

Ties, ties and more ties!

Mr. Rover,
I stopped in to Pink the other day and see what you mean. It is unfortunate what has happened to all of their ties. Once upon a time, when they were selling on Jermyn Street the four in hand ties were shorter, narrower and more my size as were the bows. One of my favourite bows is from pink - it must be half the size of what they carry now!

I would suggest ties by John Comfort of New Bond Street in London and Turnbull and Asser as both firms carry neckwear of the utmost quality and classical style and though they might run high in price, you really do get great value for your money. They are both EXTREMELY Traditional in their tastes and styles. I know for a fact that Turnbull and Asser carry the aforementioned grossgrain bowtie. Have you considered a watered silk model in a slim width in a batwing style?

 

[Evan Everhart]

White ones eh? Now I have an excuse to buy some!!

White suspenders in my opinion are a stock item of any gentleman's wardrobe (at least gentlemen who wear suspenders anyway! Hahahaaa!) They go with just about anything and look svelte besides. They are appropriate for all occasions and as they are (and ought to be) fully white including their leathers, they need not necessarily match the leather colour or even tone of one's shoes, gloves, wallet, etc! I wear white suspenders whether custom silk ones with white leathers or even watered silk ones with braided silk loops and NO leathers aside from the Y re-enforcement to the plain elastic ones which I regularly wear with my riding breeches! They always look both understated and uniquely flashy in their own way and are undeniably elegant to boot! Treat yourself!

 

[Evan Everhart]

White Suspenders:

Anyone know where I can get a pair of white suspenders with button loops, all white, including leathers or corded/braided silk loops in a children's size as I've noticed that what passes for adult sizing (and probably due to the increasing height of men on average today and their likewise increasing rotundness) is rather on the long size no matter how I adjust non-custom suspenders! I really need a pair or two to go with both my high waisted fall-front jodhpur breeches and the equally high waisted formal trousers of my evening suits. My old supplier no longer carries them as far as I can ascertain. . .UGH!

Thanks in Advance!

E.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Wear the white braces; I agree with you; it's better than droopy drawers!



Formal trousers are never cuffed

Formal trousers are really supposed to be so perfectly and immaculately fitted that no real suspension is required. The suspenders are only really useful if you intend to dance and even at that, the best made evening trousers usually have a strap and buckle at the waist with a rise that is above the waist and split up the back to the buckle arrangement so that there is still freedom of movement These are usually worn with suspenders anyway and that really is as it should be. They allow freedom of movement and great support besides. Also, the higher the rise of your trousers, the less likely that your will have the misfortune of your shirt front popping out between your waistcoat/kammarband and your trouser tops as happens so often with the ridiculously low cut modern evening trousers made and worn today...And yes, formal trousers are never cuffed because cuffing was originally done at sporting occasions to prevent mud from caking on trouser bottoms and, as we all know, sporting means informal. Right right! ;P

 

[Mike in Seattle]

Well, that special event was my wedding, and I didn't opt for the above ensemble. I found a great 1930's suit that fit the occasion perfectly!

Congratulations! You both look fantastic!

 

[flat-top]

Thanks for all the kind words, folks!

 

[Kodiak]

Here's a photo from this year's prom (last Saturday), just for giggles.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Pardon my colloquial and affectionate use of the word "brogue". The exact terms are of course, necessary. I was referring to a suitable oxford, in my case a pair of plain-toe patent lace ups.

Though I believe a pump, patent or calf, to be an entirely appropriate choice with black-tie. I would think that they are de riguer for dancing in tails, in spite of the heart-stopping looseness in the heel. That said, I've been to many black-tie events, and rarely do I spot pumps. Needless to say, these were at ball dances. Therefore, idle pumps in the wings.

At one time, I had a pair of red Doc Marten 8-eyes in patent, now those were a pair of "brogues"!

Actually sir, I must disagree! A pump, while a highly elegant item of a gentleman's wardrobe is, too formal and not of a contemporaneous age with the 'black tie' ensemble the proper footware for which is really either the black patent leather non-brogued close laced cap toe or, the identical model in calf skin - silk laces preferable though, by no means obligatory due to the more casual historical roots and status of the black tie ensemble relative to the white tie ensemble also know as 'Full figure formal'. "Brogue", is an abbreviated term in some of our English colloquial dialects which is descended from a much older Scotch Gaelic term which means a whole punched into something, a perforation/puncture, specifically in a shoe, hence, "broguing" or the calling of a shoe which has been brogued a "brogan" (See abrogated for the related root) So, technically speaking, while a 'wing-tipped shoe with its characteristic patterned, brogued decorations is a brogue or, even an ostensibly more formal cap toe with just an edging of broguing upon the rear edge of the cap toe where it meets with the rest of the shoe may be considered in some respects a brogue, no shoe which does not have decorative punched patterns upon it may be considered a brogue. Also, the term brogue does not denote a bulkier or more ungainly shoe just as it certainly does not indicate a slimmer or more formal shoe. It has simply come to be sub-consciously associated with more clumsy looking shoes in the contemporary sub-conscious due to the current trend towards most shoes resembling poorly made and rather clunky "army boots" what with soles wider than they need or ought to be etc, especially present in cheaper or so called more 'fashionable' shoes. Formal pumps are the most formal footware for either a man or a woman and, look rather similar for both sexes. Formal dress pumps are descended from ancient times and their design has hardly changed save for the details and the height of the instep which alters unfortunately with the vicissitudes of whatever passes for taste and fashion day to day in our lacking modern times. Properly speaking, the dress pump should only be worn with White Tie and Tails or, with Court Wear. Dress pumps should also only really come up to just cover the knuckles of the toes so that no 'toe cleavage' is visible and, a gross grain, watered silk or silk satin bow should be at the toe and about the same width as the pump itself with the bow arranged neatly whether that bow is floppy or sewn stiff. Black silk hosen are to be worn with the dress pumps if for White Tie and, whatever sort of hosen are in the uniform for Court Dress.

As far as Patent leather in general, it should be kept wrapped in some sort of tissue paper as per the kind you can get at any party supply store each shoe wrapped individually and thinly coated with a finger-tip's worth of vaseline spread thin about the exterior to prevent cracking from the laminated or lacquered leather from drying up underneath its outer veneer. When taken out for wear, the shoes should be brushed lightly with either a horse-hair shoe brush or, a boar-bristle shaving brush to smooth out any sliminess from the vaseline and to even the shoes' complexion.

Oh me, oh my, Wind-Bag I!

P.S. I've got a lovely pair myself, but a fractional bit too lose in the length though, with real wood and leather soles and even heels which are pegged and likewise wooden and leather and they have crimson goat-skin lining. But, the vamps are a little high for my taste. By the by, does anyone else hate Tassel loafers and think they're the non plus ultra of sartorial pedestrianism?! I HATE the things! They are so UGLY and informal! UGH! (They're even worse than Uggs!)

 

[Evan Everhart]

Are you sure? That looks more like a morning coat, the daywear equivalent of tails.

To be precise, the Morning Coat is not in any way shape or form the day wear equivalent of tails or White Tie, as quite frankly, even the more formal Frock Coat is not equivalent to tails in formality. The only thing relatively equivalent to evening Tails in formality for day wear, is the alternate to White tie for evening wear which is also used for the most formal day wear which is Court Wear. Court Wear consists of a number of pieces which rather resemble something which either George Washington or Napoleon Bonaparte would have worn. The Morning Coat is really to Day Wear what the Black Tie/Dinner Jacket ensemble is to Evening Wear; Formally, semi-formal.

 

[avedwards]

Question for UK loungers

As UK loungers will be aware, in November a poppy can be worn in the buttonhole of any suit or jacket out of respect for those who died fighting. I don't know if this is also done in the US. However, if one is to attend an evening event during November in which one wears black tie, would the poppy be worn in the button hole or would one be allowed to take it out for the evening without giving the impression of lacking respect?

 

[Midnight Blue]

As UK loungers will be aware, in November a poppy can be worn in the buttonhole of any suit or jacket out of respect for those who died fighting. I don't know if this is also done in the US. However, if one is to attend an evening event during November in which one wears black tie, would the poppy be worn in the button hole or would one be allowed to take it out for the evening without giving the impression of lacking respect?

If it's good enough for the royals, it's good enough for the rest of us. (At least among Commonwealth countries - the US does not follow this tradition.)

 

[Guttersnipe]

As UK loungers will be aware, in November a poppy can be worn in the buttonhole of any suit or jacket out of respect for those who died fighting. I don't know if this is also done in the US. However, if one is to attend an evening event during November in which one wears black tie, would the poppy be worn in the button hole or would one be allowed to take it out for the evening without giving the impression of lacking respect?

In the US we have Veteran's Day in November to celebrate those who served; Memorial Day, which is in May, honors of the fallen. I'm not familiar with the tradition of wearing a poppy, though.

Not sure what the correct formal wear etiquette about this is, however. But since flowers are sometimes worn with evening wear, there's probably an official "rule."

 

[KILO NOVEMBER]

In Flanders fields where poppies blow

I remember as a child accompanying my mother on her errands when, around Memorial Day, we went into the bank to make a deposit or cash a check, there would be a Veterans of Foreign Wars man outside the bank door wearing a paper barracks cap, holding a white can with a coin slot in the top distributing paper poppies and asking for donations for disabled veterans.

It seems a bit odd that it was the VFW (founded by Spanish American War veterans) and not The American Legion (founded by WWI veterans) that started this.

So poppies do have that association in the U.S. This link has the background http://www.vfwwebcom.org/blog/20256/Buddy+Poppies:+History.html . The association appears to come from this poem.

"In Flanders Fields
By: Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, MD (1872-1918)
Canadian Army

In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields."

 

[avedwards]

In the US we have Veteran's Day in November to celebrate those who served; Memorial Day, which is in May, honors of the fallen. I'm not familiar with the tradition of wearing a poppy, though.

Not sure what the correct formal wear etiquette about this is, however. But since flowers are sometimes worn with evening wear, there's probably an official "rule."

It seems it isn't done in the US. In the UK from the beginning of November to the 11th, a paper poppy is worn in the buttonhole or in modern times pinned to one's clothing. Donations are made to buy poppies, which go towards veterans usually.

I was just wondering if this was done in the evening for formal events during that part of November. As the above picture shows I think it is.

 

[scotrace]

Well, yes we do. We do the paper poppies and donations in November in the USA, (as Kilo November points out). I see this every year.

 

[ThesFlishThngs]

I recall that during my childhood (late 60s - 70s) on the counters of the shops in our small town there were often displays of paper poppies. It seemed to be on of those honor system setups, in which you'd take out a poppy and put a coin into the cardboard stand.
Haven't seen those in years and years, sadly.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Well, yes we do. We do the paper poppies and donations in November in the USA, (as Kilo November points out). I see this every year.

And there is even a thread on it!

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=13417

Which I bring back from its hibernation every year.....has all the info for -who-where- how- in the US...one can obtain a VFW poppy.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Poppies are done in these parts as well....

Also Duck Boats are free to Vets on Nov 11