Fear of the feminine

[VintageJess]

Not just your perspective. I see women who want to stay home and raise children put down as "breeders" by those women who are many times younger and into finding that competative career. Society today feels like it shames the female if she doesn't want to play a sport or seek to perform in the rat race.

There is nothing wrong with a woman going to college and then becoming a homemaker. Who wouldn't want to be educated, or for that matter, educated and raising children?

Matt,

Thanks for your support. Now that I'm a stay at home mom, I can't tell you how many times I've had people (even among our "friends" and family) make comments about me not using my brain or education. I'm actually thinking of starting work on my Master's degree soon, and people have insinuated that to do so would be a "waste" since I am "just" a mom right now.
My husband likes to say that he doesn't want a dummy raising his children everyday!

Jessica

 

[Matt Deckard]

Matt,

Thanks for your support. Now that I'm a stay at home mom, I can't tell you how many times I've had people (even among our "friends" and family) make comments about me not using my brain or education. I'm actually thinking of starting work on my Master's degree soon, and people have insinuated that to do so would be a "waste" since I am "just" a mom right now.
My husband likes to say that he doesn't want a dummy raising his children everyday!

Jessica

And I don't want a dummy raising my children everyday (someday... I hope)!

 

[VintageJess]

Any correlation between fear of the feminine and the trend of "dressing down"

I was thinking about this thread today, and just wondering...anyone see a link between the decrease in ladies dressing traditionally feminine, and the increase in the casual "dressing down" trends of late?

For instance, nowadays skirts and dresses seem to be reserved for formal occasions. It can be difficult to find a casual little housedress or skirt for everyday wear. And even then, people will often ask "Why are you dressed up?" (I had someone ask me that once when I was wearing a JEAN skirt!) The everyday wear of most of the masses seems to be a lot of jeans, khakis, t-shirts, sweats--which of course results in both males and females dressing very similar.

When you do see people dressed up for proms, wedding, funerals, etc. is to me when the big gender differences in attire--men in suits, women in dresses--become apparent. So could it be that since we don't dress up as much in today's society, that we see less feminine dressing overall?

Also, I've always thought that the devil is in the details. For women, I think some of those fabulous accessories like hats, gloves, hose, jewelry are what really make an outfit look feminine. And again, in today's more casual society most women don't even own a hat, pair of gloves, and dare I say any hosiery. So I see that many modern outfits don't have those little feminine finishing touches.

Any thoughts?
Jessica

 

[Tin Pan Sally]

I know, whenever I wear "nude" stockings, guys ask me why I did. And I'm taking about men who dress vintage. It allows shoes and skirt/slip slide around better. Gals just don't wear under garments any more.

 

[Paul]

I was thinking about this thread today, and just wondering...anyone see a link between the decrease in ladies dressing traditionally feminine, and the increase in the casual "dressing down" trends of late?

For instance, nowadays skirts and dresses seem to be reserved for formal occasions. It can be difficult to find a casual little housedress or skirt for everyday wear. And even then, people will often ask "Why are you dressed up?" (I had someone ask me that once when I was wearing a JEAN skirt!) The everyday wear of most of the masses seems to be a lot of jeans, khakis, t-shirts, sweats--which of course results in both males and females dressing very similar.
Any thoughts?
Jessica

I could not agree more you just have to go down any high street here in the UK on a Saturday to see that.
Are ladies loosing out? who knows, some will obviously say no!.Then they could be the ones in jeans.

 

[magneto]

::respectfully SNIPPED::
I'm actually thinking of starting work on my Master's degree soon, and people have insinuated that to do so would be a "waste" since I am "just" a mom right now.
My husband likes to say that he doesn't want a dummy raising his children everyday!
Jessica

Hee! Kudos to you, seriously. All I can say is...for the good of future generations...something will be very wrong with society (if it isn't already) when the very women who are best equipped to raise their children well and intelligently, and provide them the high-quality support and care they need, give up that vital responsibility...(or are forced to give it up for economic reasons, etc).
~Ellie (who can finally admit to myself I *want* to be "a wife and mom", after years of brainwashing in the other direction).

 

[mandolynn]

For instance, nowadays skirts and dresses seem to be reserved for formal occasions. It can be difficult to find a casual little housedress or skirt for everyday wear. And even then, people will often ask "Why are you dressed up?"

I never understood that. I like to "dress up" when I have the energy to in the mornings (school starts very early and I like my sleep, thankyou ). I really do wish women would take more pride in their femininity now a days. I hate a lot of what girls wear to be, well, attractive. Guys tend to like mystery, and are therefore more attracted to something they have to get to know better to see more of, because, hey, who's going to buy tickets to the movie when they get to see it for free? And girls now a days tend to have sloppy posture, none of them looked poised and proud of who they are. I think being lady like is being proud of yourself and having some modesty. I have to admit, though, that I'm not always the most modest of people, but there's always room for change.

 

[LizzieMaine]

This whole topic is something that I've thought about for a very long time, and I think it goes a lot deeper than simply a matter of fashion -- all the way down to the deep streak of misogyny that I think is rooted in our society. Femininity isn't simply out of fashion these days, it's actively disparaged -- and I think the root of that is that, historically, our culture simply doesn't much like women. We -- by which I mean women in general -- end up internalizing those messages -- and end up feeling disparaged or self-conscious about actually displaying any markers of traditional femininity. "We're not all *girly* or anything, honest -- we're just one of the guys!"

There was a time in my life where I went thru a lot of second-guessing of myself because of being a traditional-feminine type of gal, but eventually I came to realize that for me, femininity is all about self-confidence, and self-confidence, from whatever its source, is powerful. I don't need modern culture to tell me what's wrong with me -- because I'm confident enough in who I am to *be* myself.

And that self is classically, traditionally feminine -- and proud of it.

So there.

Lizzie From Maine

 

[mysterygal]

along with that, women seem to feel the need to prove to the guys that they're just as good...the sad fact that they're not realizing is that we are, but we each have our own strenghths and weaknesses.

 

[Tin Pan Sally]

That misogyny can have the opposite effect as well. I have often felt pressured to doll up even when it isn't practical and I don't really feel like it. In the beloved golden era, no one wanted to be the worthless ugly girl. At least in these times I can get credit for my intelligence, perspective, humor, talents, kindness, etc. I am treated as a valuable person who can contribute to society. Label me a militant feminist if that makes you feel better.
Now we have men trying to put us right back where we started if we do something horrible like look pretty at work. That's 100% pure bologna. I won't pretend to fit the mold of diesel dyke because I'm not. Neither will I pretend to be fragile, delicate, and helpless, because I am actually independent and self-sufficient. You know the old saying that Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, only backwards and in high heels. I know who I am. I can put on a dress, bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, but if you forget that you are a man, then that's your problem!

 

[herringbonekid]

This whole topic is something that I've thought about for a very long time, and I think it goes a lot deeper than simply a matter of fashion -- all the way down to the deep streak of misogyny that I think is rooted in our society. Femininity isn't simply out of fashion these days, it's actively disparaged -- and I think the root of that is that, historically, our culture simply doesn't much like women. We -- by which I mean women in general -- end up internalizing those messages -- and end up feeling disparaged or self-conscious about actually displaying any markers of traditional femininity. "We're not all *girly* or anything, honest -- we're just one of the guys!"

There was a time in my life where I went thru a lot of second-guessing of myself because of being a traditional-feminine type of gal, but eventually I came to realize that for me, femininity is all about self-confidence, and self-confidence, from whatever its source, is powerful. I don't need modern culture to tell me what's wrong with me -- because I'm confident enough in who I am to *be* myself.

And that self is classically, traditionally feminine -- and proud of it.

So there.

Lizzie From Maine

of course in this male-dominated society there is a deep streak of misogyny, just as there is a fear of anything 'other' (race, sexuality) that threatens the male hierarchy. but i think to say that men want women to be like them in dress and behaviour (i.e. be more male) is too easy. you could argue the opposite (and in fact it has been argued by feminists such as germaine greer).....that male society created the myth of femininity in order to keep women 'weak' and controllable. and that the recent 'one of the guys' attitude of women is their own way of throwing off that myth.

 

[Lincsong]

Is it just a SFO Bay thing but do the women in other areas of the country constantly wear;
1. blue jeans and turtle neck sweaters with short hair?
2. Fushia colored sweat pants, t-shirt, hip bag and drive Suburbans?
3. Elderly women wearing sweat shirts with a glue gun picture of a teddy bear or decorated tree around Christmas time?

 

[PicklePod05]

This I take offense to for men's sake.

Regardless of the appearance of a lady, I can't use that as a determiner of how she is treated.

I think it really depends on the manner of appearance. This is something that, not only have I noticed, but is also coming from my boyfriend and his friends. If you dress like a slut, you will be treated as such, even if you really aren't like that. If, however, you dress in a manner that is respectful of yourself, and your body, you will be treated with more respect.

It's important to distinguish between feminine that's ladylike and feminine that's sexy. Sexy gets attention, ladylike gets respect.

And women treat other women differently based on their clothing.

I do agree with this. Women definitely treat other women differently. Unfortunately, I’ve only run into the ones that treat you like crap because now days, dressing in a ladylike manner is equivalent to thinking that you’re better than everyone else. However, you also must distinguish between back then sexy and now days sexy, since they are two completely different things. You have to be showing a lot of skin and cleavage in order to be dressed “sexy” by today’s standards, whereas women could be completely covered and still be considered sexy way back when. That said, I don’t think of the styles now days as being very feminine at all, it’s very rare to see a woman walking down the street in a dress or skirt that doesn’t show a good portion of her backside, midriff, or cleavage.

My boyfriend and I have actually discussed a similar topic several times. Society has changed so much since then, and taken such a liberal stance that it deems men and women to be "equal". Now, I'm not saying that women are inferior, but it's like comparing apples and oranges. Men are naturally the protectors and providers, while women are naturally the nurturing care-givers. No matter how hard a woman tries to be like a man, she is, in the end, still a woman, and as such, is still bound by her limitations. Don’t get me wrong, men have their limitations too, but you don’t see men trying to be equal to women the way women try to be equal to men.

Now before anyone jumps to any conclusions, I do not believe that a woman should only stand in front of the stove all day and nothing else. There is nothing wrong with a woman having a full time job, or a career, and nothing wrong with her wanting to do her own thing, but there are certain things that women are expected to be able to do at the same time, such as the cooking, housework and raising the kids. They are the ones that are expected to take care of the family and the house, no matter what else they decide to take on such as said job or career.

Now as for being afraid of being feminine, it’s been a little complicated for me. My mother was crazy (literally) and, although I liked to wear dresses and be girly when I was little, it was also what my mom wanted me to do. So when I got a little older (maybe mid 2nd to 3rd grade or so), I started rebelling against all that my mother wanted me to do and be. I stopped dressing like a young lady, and became a tomboy. It wasn’t until recently, maybe within the last 4 years or so, when I began to regain my self, and tried to restore that part of me. Unfortunately, it had been so long that when I put on something other than my brother’s hand-me-down or my own jeans and t-shirt, or school clothes, I felt very self-conscience. I’ve slowly been able to drop it and I can say now that, no, I have no fear of looking feminine, when referring to a decent, respectful, ladylike manner of feminine. Of course, now days, there are times when a woman shouldn’t dress in such a way, especially in the city here, mainly because of the way most look at it now. If you’re dressed well, you either think you are better than everyone else, or you have a lot of money.

Now this is starting to look like an essay. I think I’ll cut it short and elaborate more in a later post… maybe.

Just my two cents.

 

[mysterygal]

to a certain point I agree with you, but, looking good does not always have to give the impression of being better than the other person or rich. (do not take this in a attacking way) have you ever noticed how little people smile? I consider myself to be pretty well dressed most of the time even though I don't have a 'job' , but, I make it a point to try to come across as congenial as possible. I have never gotten the impression that people think that I am snobby

 

[jitterbugdoll]

I think people today do not want to be bothered with
dressing feminine--combing their hair is too much work
in some instances And if they would be so inclined
to dress 'girly', they don't want to stand out from
the crowd, so they choose to dress like everyone
else--in tank tops, gym pants, and flip flops, never
mind the fact that none of these articles are truly
flattering on anyone outside of the gym.

I myself dress in skirts, dresses, stockings, and high
heels on a daily basis (and especially for dancing!)
My hair is always done, my makeup always carefully
applied--in short--I am always very overdressed,
especially for ultra-casual Arizona. Many people
really appreciate my style. This is what works for
me. My sister is a stay at home mom; she is of a more
casual, non-retro nature anyway and prefers to dress
in capri pants, nice tops, mules, etc. But when she
leaves the house her hair is always neatly combed, and
she always has lipstick on. When she was in the
workforce, she dressed very nicely--we were taught to
always dress one step higher than your actual position
(if you wanted to be the manager, then dress like one,
that sort of thing.) She's planning on returning to
work this fall (her son is now five years old), and I
have no doubt that she will be back dressing in
tailored, feminine clothing, geared toward her work
environment.

Some people, women mostly, seem to find the effort I
make somewhat off-putting, as if I am single-handedly
destroying the feminist movement by dressing like a
woman. The simple fact is that I wouldn't be caught
dead in sweat pants or pajamas (I don't even own sweat
pants) outside of my house because I like to dress
up--that's what makes me happy. It does not take that
much more effort to put on a skirt--and quite frankly,
a skirt or dress is far more comfortable than a pair
of jeans anyway! I have a sizable wardrobe of house
dresses, casual day dresses, skirts, and even
wide-legged slacks to choose from--it did take me a
while to collect them, but every piece looks polished
and pulled together. People act like it takes so much
hard work to dress feminine, but does it really?

 

[mysterygal]

Is it hard work to dress feminine? in a way yes. I enjoy it, but it takes some time and effort to come out of the house looking 'just right'. To look sloppy, you just put on whatever you find clean in your dresser, put your hair in a ponytail and..whala! there you go

 

[scotrace]

Again, perspective

Personally, a ponytail pulled through the back of a ballcap is a look I consider to be very feminine and quite fascinating. It's rather like the rumpled man's shirt plucked from the floor and tugged on to make coffee thing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Some people, women mostly, seem to find the effort I
make somewhat off-putting, as if I am single-handedly
destroying the feminist movement by dressing like a
woman.

Sometimes, though, you'll find that other women might actually be inspired by your example. I recently started a part-time job at the restored vintage-era movie theatre downtown, and since I dress late thirties/early forties all the time anyway, I sort of fit in well with the decor. The patrons love it -- I'm always getting asked about what I'm wearing -- but what's really been interesting to notice is that some of the other women who work there are catching on to what I'm doing and spiffing up a bit themselves -- one's even asked me to keep an eye out for vintage patterns in her size.

So, you never know -- we might be in the forefront of a whole new movement!

 

[Tin Pan Sally]

Some people, women mostly, seem to find the effort I
make somewhat off-putting, as if I am single-handedly destroying the feminist movement by dressing like a woman. The simple fact is that I wouldn't be caught dead in sweat pants or pajamas (I don't even own sweat
pants) outside of my house because I like to dress what makes me happy.

The key part is that it makes you happy. In the end that's what matters. It's your life, to live as you wish.
I don't own sweatpants OR the dreaded pajama bottoms I see worn to the grocery store. That's fine for them if they like it, but I'm not even comfortable sleeping in those things. I'm glad I work in an office where my coworkers dress well, since I have to look at them all day. Those gals know they can get the job done and be respected without dogging it down or beefing it up.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Sometimes, though, you'll find that other women might actually be inspired by your example. I recently started a part-time job at the restored vintage-era movie theatre downtown, and since I dress late thirties/early forties all the time anyway, I sort of fit in well with the decor. The patrons love it -- I'm always getting asked about what I'm wearing -- but what's really been interesting to notice is that some of the other women who work there are catching on to what I'm doing and spiffing up a bit themselves -- one's even asked me to keep an eye out for vintage patterns in her size.

So, you never know -- we might be in the forefront of a whole new movement!

What restored movie theatre??? Maybe I need to take a road trip.