Do you think there could be a second Great Depression?

[PrettySquareGal]

I don't entirely disagree here. What was once affordable and of high value to the average American 50 years ago is now priced just out of reach.

However, you and Sheeplady argue that there are no choices as a result and thus we as consumers are bound to these purchases. Your example of the Coach purses is a good example of what's happened to "high-end" goods. Look at Florsheim shoes - they once held a standard in men's wear. You could buy a pair of those shoes and keep them the rest of your life. Some of us guys on the lounge search these shoes out still - the old ones - hoping to land a less-worn pair. Today, I wouldn't buy Florsheims out of a shopping mall for 75% off, and I hesitate when their "high-end" shoes are on clearance online.

So yes, choices have been reduced but they have not been eliminated! That's of the utmost importance. Imagine what would happen if even 30% of American households, in unison, purchased durable goods no matter the cost. Say 30% of the entire male population purchased Red Wing work boots and no other boots - what do you think the fellas in marketing would do?

Or what would happen if there was a run on bolts of patterned wool with a correlated decrease in female day wear?

Too many people are making too much money on our laziness. That could be remedied right quick with a little effort. [huh]

I once tried to live by buying "Made in the USA" only. I learned that it's nearly impossible unless I buy all vintage and I do my best with that.

 

[sheeplady]

However, you and Sheeplady argue that there are no choices as a result and thus we as consumers are bound to these purchases. Your example of the Coach purses is a good example of what's happened to "high-end" goods. Look at Florsheim shoes - they once held a standard in men's wear. You could buy a pair of those shoes and keep them the rest of your life. Some of us guys on the lounge search these shoes out still - the old ones - hoping to land a less-worn pair. Today, I wouldn't buy Florsheims out of a shopping mall for 75% off, and I hesitate when their "high-end" shoes are on clearance online.

So yes, choices have been reduced but they have not been eliminated! That's of the utmost importance. Imagine what would happen if even 30% of American households, in unison, purchased durable goods no matter the cost. Say 30% of the entire male population purchased Red Wing work boots and no other boots - what do you think the fellas in marketing would do?

Or what would happen if there was a run on bolts of patterned wool with a correlated decrease in female day wear?

Too many people are making too much money on our laziness. That could be remedied right quick with a little effort. [huh]

My husband and I will only buy gifts for each other made in the USA; we actively search out goods from the US. For gifts, we spend most of the year searching for a single holiday- I often start my research a year in advance. But how many people have months of time to research companies in the US that makes jeans? It shouldn't take that long. I shouldn't have to find a company then find a retailer. I shouldn't have to deep research a pair of jeans.

The problem is, like PrettySquareGal says, you can't live off of a U.S. only diet of goods. If everybody bought redwing or whatever, that's great. But what about your silverware? What about small appliances? What about cars? We can't have an economy based upon boots and woolen suits. While the obvious answer for some of it is vintage, not everybody can wear all vintage, eat off all vintage, drive all vintage.

Being an active consumer (while it makes you feel good) doesn't fix the sources of the problem like unbalanced trade, political wrangling, etc.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's a problem beyond the capability of individuals to fix. We desperately want to think that we, as individuals, can make a difference, but we really can't: the problem is that the essential philosophy that governs the world we're stuck with living in is that the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. If the stockholders demand that manufacturing be shipped to the third world to maximize their profit, that's exactly what will happen, with no regard whatever for the broader impact on society -- because most people, and the institutions those people build up, believe *that's the way things are supposed to be.*

Any action individuals can take is merely palliative. I don't reject modern consumer culture because I think I'm going to change the world, because I know I never will. I reject modern consumer culture because I find it sickening. I've been eating off the same vintage plates (which cost me nothing -- they were found in the cellar of an abandoned restaurant) and using the same vintage silverware and using the same vintage appliances for my entire adult life, and I honestly couldn't live any other way and be able to face myself in the morning. The rest of the world can have all the cheap Chinese plastic trash it wants, but I want no part of it.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I have a working "vintage" (well, old) furnace in my basement made by Thermo Pride. I believe mine is from the 1980s! I just this morning had it serviced (a broken belt) and each technician states that it's the "Cadillac" of furnaces and they run forever. I checked their site and saw when I downloaded the PDF on this page that they are *still* made in the USA. So if you need a new furnace, check them out!

http://www.thermopride.com/products/oil-products/oil-furnace

 

[PrettySquareGal]

It's a problem beyond the capability of individuals to fix. We desperately want to think that we, as individuals, can make a difference, but we really can't: the problem is that the essential philosophy that governs the world we're stuck with living in is that the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. If the stockholders demand that manufacturing be shipped to the third world to maximize their profit, that's exactly what will happen, with no regard whatever for the broader impact on society -- because most people, and the institutions those people build up, believe *that's the way things are supposed to be.*

Any action individuals can take is merely palliative. I don't reject modern consumer culture because I think I'm going to change the world, because I know I never will. I reject modern consumer culture because I find it sickening. I've been eating off the same vintage plates (which cost me nothing -- they were found in the cellar of an abandoned restaurant) and using the same vintage silverware and using the same vintage appliances for my entire adult life, and I honestly couldn't live any other way and be able to face myself in the morning. The rest of the world can have all the cheap Chinese plastic trash it wants, but I want no part of it.

It makes me sick, too. I have to hold my nose when I buy many things new and cheaply made.

 

[William Stratford]

It's a problem beyond the capability of individuals to fix. We desperately want to think that we, as individuals, can make a difference, but we really can't: the problem is that the essential philosophy that governs the world we're stuck with living in is that the *only* thing that matters is the bottom line. If the stockholders demand that manufacturing be shipped to the third world to maximize their profit, that's exactly what will happen, with no regard whatever for the broader impact on society -- because most people, and the institutions those people build up, believe *that's the way things are supposed to be.*

Sad, but true. Although we can do our bit to spread knowledge of this fact, and of the values that we hold to. After all, everything large once began small.

Any action individuals can take is merely palliative. I don't reject modern consumer culture because I think I'm going to change the world, because I know I never will. I reject modern consumer culture because I find it sickening. I've been eating off the same vintage plates (which cost me nothing -- they were found in the cellar of an abandoned restaurant) and using the same vintage silverware and using the same vintage appliances for my entire adult life, and I honestly couldn't live any other way and be able to face myself in the morning. The rest of the world can have all the cheap Chinese plastic trash it wants, but I want no part of it.

I know that feeling well.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Sad, but true. Although we can do our bit to spread knowledge of this fact, and of the values that we hold to. After all, everything large once began small.

It's possible to reach individuals -- there's a small hard core of us here on the Lounge, although we're a minority even here -- but the problem is overcoming the whole deeply-entrenched system of propaganda that's brainwashed the last several generations of people. We can raise our voices and maybe influence a few people here and there, but the Boys From Marketing control what we so flippantly call "Western Civilization," and they aren't going away without a mass global revolution. Which won't ever happen as long as the Soma holds out.

Watch Ned Beatty's speech from "Network" sometime. He really does nail it:

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature, Mr. Beale, and I won't have it. Is that clear? You think you've merely stopped a business deal? That is not the case. The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back. It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity. It is ecological balance. You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations; there are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems; one vast, interwoven, interacting, multivaried, multinational dominion of dollars.

What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state? Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions, just like we do.

It is the international system of currency which determines the vitality of life on this planet. THAT is the natural order of things today. THAT is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today. And YOU have meddled with the primal forces of nature. And YOU WILL ATONE. Am I getting through to you, Mr. Beale? You get up on your little 21-inch screen and howl about America, and democracy. There is no America; there is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today.

The world is a business, Mr. Beale; it has been since man crawled out of the slime. Our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that perfect world in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality - one vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock - all necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused.

 

[Undertow]

Ah, again, I don't disagree entirely but I don't think our model is as rigid as we make it.

Granted, current Asian production is low quality, high output, bottom line junk that's meant to be thrown away two years after it's purchased when a bakelite housing melts due to a bad wire connection. I'd go even one more step and say that I've purchased "Made in USA" items that were junk, too.

However, the problem doesn't lie in WHERE the product is manufactured, it's HOW the product is manufactured and WHY people purchase the product.

Until people are willing to spend extra money on a more durable item, or until people are willing to give up said modern convenience altogether, there is absolutely no motivation for change.

Or in other words, the only language these people speak is money - and until we start speaking that language, they're not going to listen.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's the problem, really, and again, it goes back to propaganda more than anything else. People buy crappy junk because it's cheap, sure -- but they buy it because they've been brainwashed into thinking they need it, not because they actually do need it.

Go back to something as elementary as silverware again -- there is no functional reason whatsoever why a crappy set of Chinese-made stainless from Wal-Mart is an improvement over a second-hand set of vintage Rogers silverplate, especially when such sets are dirt common on eBay, Craigslist, and your local flea market. Why do people feel they have to have the former and not the latter? Answer that question and you'll understand the root of the problem.

I've survived for decades scavenging the remains of pre-Boomer civilization without buying any major item new -- I've never owned a new car, a new appliance, new furniture, new computer, new telephone, or anything else like that. The only new clothing I buy is underwear, and I make that last as long as it possibly can. I've managed to reduce my consumption of "new" goods, for the most part, to food and books. And I don't feel that my life is in any way deprived -- I don't have any of the latest communication doodads and gimmickry, but I don't *need* them. Life is perfectly functional and practical without any of that stuff. *That* is freedom. Rather than speaking *their* language, we need to learn to ignore their language and instead speak our own. We need to reject their definition of "The Good Life," and define it on our own terms.

 

[Undertow]

Right.

People have this insane mindset that they need *new* things. "Old stuff" is seen as dirty, grubby, eccentric, disgusting.

The Men on Madison (and some women too, I'm sure) have tapped our vein and they'll just keep pumping this sludge into the collective bloodstream.

This sickening "tactic" is pushed on everyone, seemingly in every way. I think our discussion in the "Pin up" thread alludes to this. Human beings are bought and sold, along with their personalities, desires and needs. It's a form human trafficking, you might say.

It's just that I don't necessarily blame the mechanism, so much as I blame those using it.

(I don't blame a hammer, I blame the kid that uses it to rob the liquor store.)

 

[LizzieMaine]

People are taught to believe in "the market" as some sort of divinely-ordained mechanism that can do no wrong. They're also taught to never, *ever* try to peek behind the curtain to see who's really pulling the strings, because once they do the whole illusion falls away. The whole shape of our civilization for the past sixty years has been built on the idea of making people afraid to peek behind that curtain. As long as they're afraid to do that, they'll remain grinning, shuffling, subservient slaves -- spending money when they're told to spend it, on what they're told to spend it on.

And that, not selling a better mousetrap or improving the well being of all, is the real goal and purpose of the Boys From Marketing -- to keep all the rest of humanity In Its Place -- as nothing more than faceless lumps of fuel for the engine of commerce. That's why those of us who step out of line get stigmatized, that's why the whole idea of rejecting consumerism is seen as the domain of fanatics and crackpots and malcontents, and the concept of using durable, secondhand goods is seen as "dirty gross and yucky." Those of us who do those things are committing the forbidden act: we're peeking behind the curtain and seeing what's really there.

 

[Undertow]

Although I'm sure this is a little off topic, it fits in with what you're saying Lizzie.

Poll: Catching criminals is fine, but don't use drones for speeding tickets, Americans say

"So if they keep beating the drum, we just keep marching?"
"You got it, Mac."

How does this fit in? Well, I don't recall voting on this issue. I'm not even sure our Congress voted on it (although it wouldn't matter - someone would have bought their votes anyway). But by golly, it's been packaged and sold to us! We're dumb enough to go along with it and I'm not hearing any complaints. And tomorrow, if they tell us we all need cute brown pills to match our designer shoe laces, we'll grin and strip naked so we can pass through security checkpoint Bravo before hitting Starbucks.

And we wonder why we're hanging over the edge of a mountain?

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Until people are willing to spend extra money on a more durable item, or until people are willing to give up said modern convenience altogether, there is absolutely no motivation for change.

Given the subject of this thread and the precarious economic situation so many Americans find themselves in, I don't think opting to spend more is an option for most...

 

[sheeplady]

Given the subject of this thread and the precarious economic situation so many Americans find themselves in, I don't think opting to spend more is an option for most...

There probably are some people who would be financially helped if they bought more durable, repairable goods, but they're probably middle class given the cost of many brands of durable goods and the inability to repair things. People who are low income (or temporary low income) might have problems making the original purchase price.

I don't blame people who just need a pair of shoes and all they have is $5. It's better to have shoes than not, even if they are cheap. I've worn $5 shoes in my life, and while they aren't nice, they're shoes. It would have been nice to have been able to invest in a nice pair of $100 shoes, but then I wouldn't have eaten for two months. Lots of people make those choices every day.

 

[Flicka]

People are taught to believe in "the market" as some sort of divinely-ordained mechanism that can do no wrong. They're also taught to never, *ever* try to peek behind the curtain to see who's really pulling the strings, because once they do the whole illusion falls away. The whole shape of our civilization for the past sixty years has been built on the idea of making people afraid to peek behind that curtain. As long as they're afraid to do that, they'll remain grinning, shuffling, subservient slaves -- spending money when they're told to spend it, on what they're told to spend it on.

And that, not selling a better mousetrap or improving the well being of all, is the real goal and purpose of the Boys From Marketing -- to keep all the rest of humanity In Its Place -- as nothing more than faceless lumps of fuel for the engine of commerce. That's why those of us who step out of line get stigmatized, that's why the whole idea of rejecting consumerism is seen as the domain of fanatics and crackpots and malcontents, and the concept of using durable, secondhand goods is seen as "dirty gross and yucky." Those of us who do those things are committing the forbidden act: we're peeking behind the curtain and seeing what's really there.

My sister is an economist and she has a gazillion jokes abt how many economists it takes to change a lightbulb. A favorite is the one that says: 'None, because if the lightbulb needed changing, the market would already have done it'. Says a lot about certain economical theories, that one.

In my opinion, certain things should cost more money than they do. If you buy yourself some kitchen ware, why shouldn't they be a one time investment? And why do we have to keep chickens in abysmal conditions so we can eat meat every day? We didn't do that 60 years ago and we don't strictly need to do that today either. 60 years ago people here webt biking and camping on their vacations. Now they go to Thailand and push the earth a little closer to ecological collapse with their flying, but are they any happier?

And don't get me started on how we look at people. Somehow, in a world run by profit, the things that matter so much that we can't even put a price on them, like human life, are percieved to have no value at all.

For me it's not about buying 'Swedish made' or 'European made' (as someone who believes in the internal market I shouldn't differentiate between the two). It's about only buying things I really need that are produced in an ethical and ecologically sunstainable way. If that means buying second hand, well, I'm fine with that.

I still don't see a Great Depression soon, but I wouldn't be surprised to see our entire way of life collapsing within the next 50 years.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

It's not for nothing that Economics is known as The Dismal Science.

 

[William Stratford]

It's possible to reach individuals -- there's a small hard core of us here on the Lounge, although we're a minority even here -- but the problem is overcoming the whole deeply-entrenched system of propaganda that's brainwashed the last several generations of people. We can raise our voices and maybe influence a few people here and there, but the Boys From Marketing control what we so flippantly call "Western Civilization," and they aren't going away without a mass global revolution. Which won't ever happen as long as the Soma holds out.

Could not have put it better myself!

Watch Ned Beatty's speech from "Network" sometime. He really does nail it:

I just youtubed that speech and yes it is spot on.

People are taught to believe in "the market" as some sort of divinely-ordained mechanism that can do no wrong. They're also taught to never, *ever* try to peek behind the curtain to see who's really pulling the strings, because once they do the whole illusion falls away. The whole shape of our civilization for the past sixty years has been built on the idea of making people afraid to peek behind that curtain. As long as they're afraid to do that, they'll remain grinning, shuffling, subservient slaves -- spending money when they're told to spend it, on what they're told to spend it on.

And that, not selling a better mousetrap or improving the well being of all, is the real goal and purpose of the Boys From Marketing -- to keep all the rest of humanity In Its Place -- as nothing more than faceless lumps of fuel for the engine of commerce. That's why those of us who step out of line get stigmatized, that's why the whole idea of rejecting consumerism is seen as the domain of fanatics and crackpots and malcontents, and the concept of using durable, secondhand goods is seen as "dirty gross and yucky." Those of us who do those things are committing the forbidden act: we're peeking behind the curtain and seeing what's really there.

Indeed.

All hail the holy economy, which has to keep "growing" and so will always favour consume/dispose/consume over inherit/cherish/bequeath. The old is deemed wrong and bad, whilst the new is worshiped as the saviour of the moment (before shortly being discarded in favour of the next thing to be consumed). The result is generations growing up alienated from all that came before them - rootless little consumers cut adrift on the ocean of history. Taught that lust and appetite are more important than cherishing, whether of people or things.

 

[nihil]

(most especially over the last 50 years when we still had a choice to buy local).

"Back then" you were forced to buy expensive local made products. The "choice" didn't really exist. It have just gone from 'expensive local' to 'cheap foreign'.
(My toaster is 20 years old, made in China, and still works flawlessly..)

 

[Feraud]

People are taught to believe in "the market" as some sort of divinely-ordained mechanism that can do no wrong. They're also taught to never, *ever* try to peek behind the curtain to see who's really pulling the strings, because once they do the whole illusion falls away. The whole shape of our civilization for the past sixty years has been built on the idea of making people afraid to peek behind that curtain. As long as they're afraid to do that, they'll remain grinning, shuffling, subservient slaves -- spending money when they're told to spend it, on what they're told to spend it on.

And that, not selling a better mousetrap or improving the well being of all, is the real goal and purpose of the Boys From Marketing -- to keep all the rest of humanity In Its Place -- as nothing more than faceless lumps of fuel for the engine of commerce. That's why those of us who step out of line get stigmatized, that's why the whole idea of rejecting consumerism is seen as the domain of fanatics and crackpots and malcontents, and the concept of using durable, secondhand goods is seen as "dirty gross and yucky." Those of us who do those things are committing the forbidden act: we're peeking behind the curtain and seeing what's really there.

Many Americans are kept in fear of speaking out against Big Business at the cost of being called Un-American.
How dare anyone question the right of Business to make as much money as they can at the expense of You, your neighborhood, country, and any Third World we can drag into the mix to skirt U.S. Environmental and Human Rights laws..

 

[PrettySquareGal]

"Back then" you were forced to buy expensive local made products. The "choice" didn't really exist. It have just gone from 'expensive local' to 'cheap foreign'.
(My toaster is 20 years old, made in China, and still works flawlessly..)

Not true in the least. Check out any old Sears catalog. Prices for everyday appliances, furnishings and clothing made in the USA were within the middle-class price range.