Do you think there could be a second Great Depression?

[PrettySquareGal]

People are taught to believe in "the market" as some sort of divinely-ordained mechanism that can do no wrong. They're also taught to never, *ever* try to peek behind the curtain to see who's really pulling the strings, because once they do the whole illusion falls away.

What concerns me is that even with the widespread reporting of human rights abuses in Apple factories in China, people still worship their iPhones.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/apple-admits-it-has-a-human-rights-problem-6898617.html

 

[LizzieMaine]

We really do live in the Golden Age of Rationalization.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

We really do live in the Golden Age of Rationalization.

And depersonalization. And distraction from the truth.

 

[William Stratford]

Many Americans are kept in fear of speaking out against Big Business at the cost of being called Un-American.
How dare anyone question the right of Business to make as much money as they can at the expense of You, your neighborhood, country, and any Third World we can drag into the mix to skirt U.S. Environmental and Human Rights laws..

That is in no small part down to a staggering act of legerdemain in politics - rebranding economic liberalism as "conservative" with the result that people who considered themselves to be conservative (small "c" - patriotic, socially conservative, supporting of small local trades) became conned into thinking that "the market" was anything to do with such (and now support "the City" and "Wall Street" and Global Freetrade). [huh] A mind-blowingly audacious move, and people actually fell for it! :eusa_doh:

 

[LizzieMaine]

Milton Friedman: the Kingfish of Economics.

 

[William Stratford]

Milton Friedman: the Kingfish of Economics.

Indeed.

Although he was only the last link in a chain that toppled decency, a chain that has went back through (over here) Thatcher and her Mephistophelian pair of Vons (Hayek and Mises), as the last even remotely conservative PM we had was Sir Alec Douglass Home, but then even before them stretching back to Burke even!

*sigh*

 

[nihil]

Not true in the least. Check out any old Sears catalog. Prices for everyday appliances, furnishings and clothing made in the USA were within the middle-class price range.

The cost-percentage of your disposable income back then still make those 'good old days' products much more expensive than what is available today. The price classes of the products are not really comparable.
You can also still get severely expensive products today. Bespoke clothes, furniture, etc.

 

[Undertow]

People who are low income (or temporary low income) might have problems making the original purchase price...I don't blame people who just need a pair of shoes and all they have is $5. It's better to have shoes than not, even if they are cheap. I've worn $5 shoes in my life, and while they aren't nice, they're shoes. It would have been nice to have been able to invest in a nice pair of $100 shoes, but then I wouldn't have eaten for two months. Lots of people make those choices every day.

Oh yes. It's sad, really, the disparity between the poor in Western societies and their cigar smoking, golf playing, Lambo driving counterparts. But I wonder...

The folks that can't afford proper shoes, what are their priorities? Where is their money going? Why can't they mend and make do? Is it the case that they truly need a new pair of shoes, and they only have $5 for a pair of cheap White Stags (Wal-Mart brand Keds)? Or is it that they're living beyond their means, and when new-shoe day came up, they'd already spent money on something else? I would argue that there are poor people, and then there are people that live outside of their means.

Please know I'm not being cold-hearted - I grew up poor and I still have issues with living like every day is a crisis. But living like that has taught me to ask the questions, "Do I need this? Can I fix what I have? Can I find an alternative?" What happened to cardboard inserts in shoes? Or duct tape? What happened to hand sewing holes in fabric? Or taking the toaster apart and fixing the wires? Yes, I know some of this stuff isn't built to be repaired - so throw it away. If you can feed yourself, clothe yourself and keep a roof over your head, you're probably do better than a billion people already.

I fully agree that theoretical economics is really nice on paper, but woefully lacking in reality. When the "free market" is abused and manipulated, and when very smart people learn how to legally steal billions of dollars, and when an entire population is convinced that it needs to buy new, nice things every day, it's hard to defend the "free market" with a straight face. Obviously, our current problems aren't the result of a single factor, but the culmination of decades of abuse.

However, I stand by the assertion that regular people, in numbers, can play the manipulation game as well. It would take education and justice (good luck), but it's possible.

 

[LizzieMaine]

However, I stand by the assertion that regular people, in numbers, can play the manipulation game as well. It would take education and justice (good luck), but it's possible.

Justice will be the difficult part. Most people pay lip service to human rights and wring their hands when they read about sweatshop atrocities, but that's as far as they go with it. In practice, the only rights most people honestly care about are their own -- and high on that list is the supposed "right" to an unlimited supply of artificially-low-priced shiny junk. Who cares if Those Other People on the other side of the world suffer because of it -- after all, living thirty-to-a-room in a sweatshop dorm is an improvement over the way Those People usually live, right?

I think the best thing that could happen to humanity is for that supply of cheap goods to suddenly be cut off. Most people will never understand what they can actually do without until they have to do without it.

 

[sheeplady]

The folks that can't afford proper shoes, what are their priorities? Where is their money going? Why can't they mend and make do? Is it the case that they truly need a new pair of shoes, and they only have $5 for a pair of cheap White Stags (Wal-Mart brand Keds)? Or is it that they're living beyond their means, and when new-shoe day came up, they'd already spent money on something else? I would argue that there are poor people, and then there are people that live outside of their means.

Yes, people do live outside their means. But it's really hard to define that. Lot's of people- even those with minimal or no debt- have been hit hard by this recession. When you don't have a job, or you can only find part-time work, chances are you can't make those obligations that you made a few years ago when things were better- even if you were well within your means at that time. I've known people here who have lost their home for property taxes (about $4,000 a year on a $100,000 home here) even though they don't have a mortgage because they can't make ends meet with a sick family member, etc. I've been in section 8 housing and I've been in some of the poorest rural areas in this country. Believe me, there are plenty of people who can't afford more than $5 shoes. While they are not all the people who buy $5 shoes, I'm not going to discount the fact that these people exist.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying poor in Western society. I think it's a tragedy that we have people who can't afford to eat in Western countries and that we won't feed our own people. Any country that allows it's citizens to go hungry when there is plenty is shameful. We should all be ashamed that there is anyone who lacks appropriate food. It shouldn't be excused away by saying that people in other countries are poorer or have less then what we have here. I'm pretty sure that is not your point, but it's a sentiment I have heard many times that really makes me upset. You (and I mean general everyone) don't justify evil because it's evil.

 

[sheeplady]

Who cares if Those Other People on the other side of the world suffer because of it -- after all, living thirty-to-a-room in a sweatshop dorm is an improvement over the way Those People usually live, right?

People said the same thing about slavery. It's the same sentiment. We're actually "helping those people by enslaving them." Oh, and it's also a feat of modern engineering that we can do so much just in time manufacturing through slave labor.

 

[William Stratford]

I think the best thing that could happen to humanity is for that supply of cheap goods to suddenly be cut off. Most people will never understand what they can actually do without until they have to do without it.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

Justice will be the difficult part. Most people pay lip service to human rights and wring their hands when they read about sweatshop atrocities, but that's as far as they go with it. In practice, the only rights most people honestly care about are their own -- and high on that list is the supposed "right" to an unlimited supply of artificially-low-priced shiny junk. Who cares if Those Other People on the other side of the world suffer because of it -- after all, living thirty-to-a-room in a sweatshop dorm is an improvement over the way Those People usually live, right?

Could you clarify? I agree that if someone is against human rights abuse than that someone should not buy said product made by cheap labor. However, shouldn't the country where the cheap product originates bear responsibility for "exploiting" its own citizens?

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

I think it's a tragedy that we have people who can't afford to eat in Western countries and that we won't feed our own people. Any country that allows it's citizens to go hungry when there is plenty is shameful. We should all be ashamed that there is anyone who lacks appropriate food. It shouldn't be excused away by saying that people in other countries are poorer or have less then what we have here. I'm pretty sure that is not your point, but it's a sentiment I have heard many times that really makes me upset. You (and I mean general everyone) don't justify evil because it's evil.

I think people can afford to to eat in Western countries. The "poor" that I have seen also have cell phones-even smart phones-, designer clothing, high end televisions (think the flat screens in your local Best Buy), and other luxuries. If they are hungry then it is because of their decisions. Unfortunately, decisions have consequences. This world seeks to eliminate all consequences from decisions. I am waiting in bated anticipation for the result.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

The "poor" that I have seen also have cell phones-even smart phones-, designer clothing, high end televisions, and other luxuries. If they are hungry then it is because of their decisions. Unfortunately, decisions have consequences. This world seeks to eliminate all consequences from decisions. I am waiting in bated anticipation for the result.

I agree that many people (and businesses!) living on the dole/in heavy debt brought it upon themselves by viewing absurd luxuries as necessities whether it's a McMansion or cable TV (which IS a luxury). However, there is a large segment of Americans who do NOT fall into this category, and that is the millions of senior citizens who are living on fixed incomes in the same house they've been in since they bought it years ago and can barely afford to heat it or make needed repairs.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Could you clarify? I agree that if someone is against human rights abuse than that someone should not buy said product made by cheap labor. However, shouldn't the country where the cheap product originates bear responsibility for "exploiting" its own citizens?

Yes, but so should the corporation farming out the work. It's up to them to oversee and enforce the terms of their contracts with these sweatshops.

 

[William Stratford]

Could you clarify? I agree that if someone is against human rights abuse than that someone should not buy said product made by cheap labor. However, shouldn't the country where the cheap product originates bear responsibility for "exploiting" its own citizens?

That is a little like saying that pimp bears responsibility but the curb-crawler does not.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I think the best thing that could happen to humanity is for that supply of cheap goods to suddenly be cut off. Most people will never understand what they can actually do without until they have to do without it.

Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes...

"We must be on our guard to see that modern conditions do not weaken our fiber until when faced with hardship we become as helpless as a hermit crab without its shell."
...Daniel Carter Beard (1850-1941)
Founder of the Boy Scouts of America

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes...

"We must be on our guard to see that modern conditions do not weaken our fiber until when faced with hardship we become as helpless as a hermit crab without its shell."
...Daniel Carter Beard (1850-1941), Founder of the Boy Scouts of America

Great quote, sad and scary that we reached that point some time ago.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That is a little like saying that pimp bears responsibility but the curb-crawler does not.

In the end, the customer is every bit as criminal as both the procurer and the provider. If the product itself is filthy, the filth taints everyone who handles it.