Do you think there could be a second Great Depression?

[sheeplady]

I think people can afford to to eat in Western countries. The "poor" that I have seen also have cell phones-even smart phones-, designer clothing, high end televisions (think the flat screens in your local Best Buy), and other luxuries. If they are hungry then it is because of their decisions. Unfortunately, decisions have consequences. This world seeks to eliminate all consequences from decisions. I am waiting in bated anticipation for the result.

I am glad that you haven't seen the poverty I have seen in my own community. I know no one who owns a flat screen TV (most of the poor I know are rural poor too far from broadcast and cable lines), smart phone (cell phone reception is non-existent in many very rural areas of the country), and designer clothing only comes from the city or a computer, and they're lucky if there's a food pantry or a clothing donation center in 30 miles. Most of these people's cars couldn't make it to a city and they don't know how to run a computer. Some poor I know don't even have landlines because the telephone company won't run the lines to their shack because they can't make enough money. Yet alone electric or running water. I know people who've got newspapers for floors and heat with illegal wood stoves. Some of these people are young, but a lot are older individuals who have had their pensions ripped from them. And these are the people who have a place to live.

No one chooses to be hungry, particularly not children. I'm glad you've never seen a kindergartner hoard food on a Friday from the lunchroom, because they know they won't get anything to eat until Monday. I'm glad that you've never met anyone living out of their car or under a bridge. I've known homeless people, and believe me, for all our good decisions we are only one major sweep of bad luck away from all being homeless ourselves. Thinking that you're somehow immune to it just is a pleasant excuse for pretending that it can't happen to you- because, deep down, you know it would be horrible to live on the streets.

But that's ok, because they're probably hiding their flat screen TV out behind the outhouse or in the trunk.

 

[sheeplady]

That is a little like saying that pimp bears responsibility but the curb-crawler does not.

No, it's more like saying you blame the pimp (the country exploiting it's people) and the john (the people who buy the goods, taking advantage of the prostitute). The curb crawler in this case, the workers, are victims- the same as women who are forced into prostitution by the sex slave trade.

 

[William Stratford]

No, it's more like saying you blame the pimp (the country exploiting it's people) and the john (the people who buy the goods, taking advantage of the prostitute). The curb crawler in this case, the workers, are victims- the same as women who are forced into prostitution by the sex slave trade.

Sorry, I think we are suffering from trans-atlantic crossed wires. Over here the curb-crawler is the "client" and not the prostitute.

 

[sheeplady]

Sorry, I think we are suffering from trans-atlantic crossed wires. Over here the curb-crawler is the "client" and not the prostitute.

Ah, I'd never heard that term before and assumed it was the prostitute. Actually, I maybe I've heard it perhaps but maybe I assumed wrong? Sorry.

 

[William Stratford]

Ah, I'd never heard that term before and assumed it was the prostitute. Actually, I maybe I've heard it perhaps but maybe I assumed wrong? Sorry.

Tis not a problem. The phrase is used over here to describe those (usually) men who pull in to a curb in order to pick up a prostitute off the street corner. There are other phrases I could have used to describe such men, but they would not be suitable for here!

 

[Flicka]

A few years ago I got out of a 10+ year long relationship without as much as a penny to my name. It was quite a shock because my bf whom I lived with made a lot of money and I was used to living large (for some reason he'd persuaded me that bills & food were my department despite him making four times what I did so I had no savings). It was a bit of a shock as I had nowhere to live and had to save every penny I could to save up for a place of my own, but I found it was quite liberating too - I really didn't need much more than a bus pass, a library card and cabbage soup. Whenever I buy too much stuff I try to remember that feeling. I also try to always buy used/Fairtrade if I can (although I admit I have an Apple computer - considering the prices they charge they should pay their workers generously).

But people think I'm ultra-weird when I say I didn't have a tv for 2 years because the one I got after a friend's dead grandmother broke down and I didn't really need a new one.

I am glad that you haven't seen the poverty I have seen in my own community. I know no one who owns a flat screen TV (most of the poor I know are rural poor too far from broadcast and cable lines), smart phone (cell phone reception is non-existent in many very rural areas of the country), and designer clothing only comes from the city or a computer, and they're lucky if there's a food pantry or a clothing donation center in 30 miles. Most of these people's cars couldn't make it to a city and they don't know how to run a computer. Some poor I know don't even have landlines because the telephone company won't run the lines to their shack because they can't make enough money. Yet alone electric or running water. I know people who've got newspapers for floors and heat with illegal wood stoves. Some of these people are young, but a lot are older individuals who have had their pensions ripped from them. And these are the people who have a place to live.

No one chooses to be hungry, particularly not children. I'm glad you've never seen a kindergartner hoard food on a Friday from the lunchroom, because they know they won't get anything to eat until Monday. I'm glad that you've never met anyone living out of their car or under a bridge. I've known homeless people, and believe me, for all our good decisions we are only one major sweep of bad luck away from all being homeless ourselves. Thinking that you're somehow immune to it just is a pleasant excuse for pretending that it can't happen to you- because, deep down, you know it would be horrible to live on the streets.

Thank God I'm in Sweden. So maybe I pay a lot of taxes, but it's because I can afford it and at least it means that no one here goes hungry (or without medical care). The welfare state is probably our biggest Golden era legacy here.

...and then she shut her mouth before all sorts of political opinions spilled out.

 

[Undertow]

Flicka, I hear that alot too - about the TV. I don't use the thing, so why should I have one?

Well, I broke down back in 2008 and bought one on sale (so I could watch old Hitchcock movies, duh! lol). But I've never had cable, and I don't use it to actually watch programs.

Now I'm that "weird guy" at work that still doesn't know anything about modern programming. My Mrs. is in the same boat - we gave her tv away because she hadn't actually turned it on in years.

...on second thought, I'm that weird guy at work for many reasons...oh bother.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I also try to always buy used/Fairtrade if I can (although I admit I have an Apple computer - considering the prices they charge they should pay their workers generously).

Consider a used Mac -- we might not be able to defeat planned obsolescence, but we can refuse to go along with it. I've been nursing along several antiquated Macs for years, for which Cupertino never saw a nickel of my money. They're patched up with baling wire and duct tape, but I keep them going -- and there's a ready supply of them being tossed out every year by hipsters who need the Latest Cool Thing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Now I'm that "weird guy" at work that still doesn't know anything about modern programming. My Mrs. is in the same boat - we gave her tv away because she hadn't actually turned it on in years.

Lately I've started watching television, other than Red Sox games, again -- there's a channel that shows Honeymooners reruns at 1030pm, followed by the Twilight Zone at 11. That's as current as I care to get.

 

[Flicka]

At least I give away my old Macs when I get a new one. A good Mac lasts at least ten years in my family so that makes me feel slightly better, but it does appall me just the same that we exploit people like that.

Lately I've started watching television, other than Red Sox games, again -- there's a channel that shows Honeymooners reruns at 1030pm, followed by the Twilight Zone at 11. That's as current as I care to get.

I watch historical documentaries a lot. That's about as current as I get.

(OK, I fib a little - I watch Inspector Lewis on Saturdays too, but I could really manage with just Viasat History)

 

[Undertow]

Now there's an idea! Trust-fund hipsters throwing away Macs!

I knew you had a Mac, Lizzie, but it hadn't occured to me how simple it must be to fix them if you're finding tossed ones. I should stay on the prowl for these things.

 

[sheeplady]

Thank God I'm in Sweden. So maybe I pay a lot of taxes, but it's because I can afford it and at least it means that no one here goes hungry (or without medical care). The welfare state is probably our biggest Golden era legacy here.

...and then she shut her mouth before all sorts of political opinions spilled out.

Things like homelessness and poverty are incredibly complicated in the U.S. We do have safety nets (not to the extent of many countries in Europe) but their application and use is mired by all sorts of political, social, and cultural issues.

The school district were I will be moving in several years has two programs that I think are great but bother me greatly that they need to exist. One is a program where elementary students are encouraged to bring in canned goods in their backpacks- they actually call it "can in your backpack fridays." They encourage students who can to bring in canned goods, which are then distributed to those children who will otherwise not get a meal over the weekend. Essentially they switch the canned goods from one set of backpacks to another. The other is that they have a small clothing donation center and food pantry across from the middle/high school (they also do "canned goods friday") but is open specifically during the school lunch hour and after school one day a week so that children can get necessary clothes and food to take home to their families.

In case anyone reading it hasn't gotten it yet, this area is very very impoverished.

While it makes me feel pretty good to be moving into a community who tries so hard to help each other, it makes me very sad to think that it's at a point where that level of hunger and need is considered remotely normal enough to result in an established event for elementary aged students. Can you imagine being a child in that district and forgetting your can at home for the food drive, and knowing that because of that, your friend might go hungry that weekend? Can you imagine being the kid who needs a can and doesn't get one?

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

I am glad that you haven't seen the poverty I have seen in my own community. I know no one who owns a flat screen TV (most of the poor I know are rural poor too far from broadcast and cable lines), smart phone (cell phone reception is non-existent in many very rural areas of the country), and designer clothing only comes from the city or a computer, and they're lucky if there's a food pantry or a clothing donation center in 30 miles. Most of these people's cars couldn't make it to a city and they don't know how to run a computer. Some poor I know don't even have landlines because the telephone company won't run the lines to their shack because they can't make enough money. Yet alone electric or running water. I know people who've got newspapers for floors and heat with illegal wood stoves. Some of these people are young, but a lot are older individuals who have had their pensions ripped from them. And these are the people who have a place to live.

No one chooses to be hungry, particularly not children. I'm glad you've never seen a kindergartner hoard food on a Friday from the lunchroom, because they know they won't get anything to eat until Monday. I'm glad that you've never met anyone living out of their car or under a bridge. I've known homeless people, and believe me, for all our good decisions we are only one major sweep of bad luck away from all being homeless ourselves. Thinking that you're somehow immune to it just is a pleasant excuse for pretending that it can't happen to you- because, deep down, you know it would be horrible to live on the streets.

But that's ok, because they're probably hiding their flat screen TV out behind the outhouse or in the trunk.

Laying it on a little thick, don'tcha think?

How about there are people that need help and people who "pimp" the system. I still doubt that many people go hungry in this day and age. Are you talking about one or two children, or hundreds of families.

But it depends where you live. I heard that southern poverty is worse than poverty in the north.

 

[sheeplady]

Laying it on a little thick, don'tcha think?

How about there are people that need help and people who "pimp" the system. I still doubt that many people go hungry in this day and age. Are you talking about one or two children, or hundreds of families.

But it depends where you live. I heard that southern poverty is worse than poverty in the north.

You can accuse me of laying it on too thick all you like, but I lived the life I have lived and have the experience that backs up my statement. Some of the examples I gave you are extremely personal. I am more than happy to share the individual stories if you'd like.

Do people game the system? Absolutely, and those things should not be excused in any way shape or form. But not everyone who is dealing with the system abuses it, and not everyone who could be helped is being helped. Most of the stories I told are of people who aren't involved in the "system." Again, if you'd like personal details from my own life or from those I have known, I am more than happy to share, please ask. I think we need to put names and faces to these things.

Who cares if it is 2 children who are hungry or 200,000? Shouldn't we be ashamed that we allow that to happen at any magnitude? It's not like suffering is somehow less for each of those 2 children than for those 200,000. At what point do we care if it's a problem- 1% of our children being hungry is ok, but 10% is not? Why?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

There is always going to be poor..hungry..and sick people in the world simply because there is greed and a much greater sense of 'I'..or self. Wouldn't need to be. There is enough wealth and food to go around to personally offer for charity. Many 'game the system' on most every level. Too many hands in the cookie jars. That's why..in my view...it's always better to give on a more local level. The more personal and direct the better. Most of us do have more than we 'need'. However..I don't want a charity tax for someone else to control...but give from my heart and free will..as it should be.
HD

 

[Flicka]

Me, personally, I worry less about that someone might get too much from the system than that some may get too little.

Anyway, I'm fine with being relieved from some of my wealth any which way, but then I'm a Christian and find the likelihood of a camel passing through the eye of a needle rather poor odds.

 

[Feraud]

If we relied on the average man to do the right thing and give to charity there'd be a lot more homeless and poverty in this country.
Government should be about taking care of it's citizens (not only the rich corporate pigs feeding at the trough of Government ) and taxes for social programs are essential to the health of the entire country.

The myth of the welfare mother bilking the system and our reaction reflects such a deep hatred of the poor.
Rich businessmen who rob their companies, shareholders, and the Government for millions barely raise an eyebrow among the populace but tell the rabble a jobless mother of three received an extra welfare check and they are ready to teabag the Government. We're a nation of idiots.

 

[LizzieMaine]

If we relied on the average man to do the right thing and give to charity there'd be a lot more homeless and poverty in this country.

This was tried during the Depression, and the result was exactly as you predict. Private and church-based charities were simply unable to keep up with the need. "Let George do it" is hardly a philosophy that's going to work in times of real crisis.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

Rich businessmen who rob their companies, shareholders, and the Government for millions barely raise an eyebrow among the populace but tell the rabble a jobless mother of three received an extra welfare check and they are ready to teabag the Government. We're a nation of idiots.

"ut tell the rabble..." "and they are ready to teabag the government." And this from a bartender? Whatever.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

That's why..in my view...it's always better to give on a more local level. The more personal and direct the better. Most of us do have more than we 'need'. However..I don't want a charity tax for someone else to control...but give from my heart and free will..as it should be.
HD

One benefit is that giving on a more local level would stymie any corruption (hopefully and that is a big hopefully). The bigger the leviathan the less oversight in my book.