Zippers

[renor27]

Looking to have few pairs of pants made. Using 1936 to 1941 catologs to have the patterns made from. Not sure about when zippers were first use and was the use of them different for work clothing vs suits? The next question where might I find the right zippers?

 

[Robert Conway]

Does anyone have information about the history of zippers?

When did they start to appear in pants etc? Is this a good method
to date pants?

It seems that the early ones were steel and of a slightly different
construction, than what we are familiar with today.

Thanks,

Robert Conway

 

[Matt Deckard]

I actually preffer Talon slide fasteners...

They are all over 1940's suits and after. Most 1930's and before that I have seen have the button fly.

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Teasers/Teasers/ZipperHistory.htm

 

[Robert Conway]

>I actually preffer Talon slide fasteners...

Are these the ones that aren't permanently connected at the bottom end?


Thanks,

Robert Conway

 

[MudInYerEye]

I have an issue of Life from 1938 which has an ad for Talon slide fasteners. The selling point in this particular ad is that the zipper eliminates the gaps between fly buttons, thus creating a smoother line and avoiding cool drafts.
H.D. Lee starting using zippers as an option on their jeans in the mid to late 1920's.

 

[nightandthecity]

Elias Howe is said to have invented a proto-zipper in the 1850s, but I think the modern zip dates to WW1.

Mud is right about Lee jeans (1926 I think), but zips seem to have been generally slow to catch on with trousers. Levi didn't use them till 1951, and very sparingly until the 60s, and I have only ever seen buttons on 1930s and 40s British trousers.

I suspect their first real inroad was on utility and flight jackets, from around the early 1930s British leather jackets seem to usually use zips. And in the US the zippered A2 of course was introduced in 1931

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I just picked up a suit with 1936 union labels. The pants have a Talon zip fly.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

History of zippers

I read lots of exciting books about the history of zippers - in fact there is rarely one absent from my bedside table.

In my opinion, by far the best (although perhaps a little biased) is:
Brown, S. Rd. (1963) Talon Inc.; A Romance of Achievement. Rand McNally, Chicago, Ill.

This riveting tome describes the history of the Hookless Fastner Co (which became the Talon company) from the Hookless #1 (of 1912, which failed in practice) to the first success in 1913 (Hookless #2). The book ends with the epic Talon 42 Little Zipper of the early 1960s. A classic.

Even the little-known link with Lightning Fasteners of Birmingham, England is discussed!

 

[MudInYerEye]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the modern zipper was a German invention, a product of the Zipp company (anyone who has an old Luftwaffe jacket will recognize this name) The word "zipper" was trademarked by Zipp and thus the word as a catch-all for metal-toothed slide fasteners was verboten for several decades until a settlement was reached. Lee called their product the Wizzit or Whizzit, something like that.
But again, I'm often wrong.

 

[nightandthecity]

I read lots of exciting books about the history of zippers - in fact there is rarely one absent from my bedside table.

In my opinion, by far the best (although perhaps a little biased) is:
Brown, S. Rd. (1963) Talon Inc.; A Romance of Achievement. Rand McNally, Chicago, Ill.

This riveting tome describes the history of the Hookless Fastner Co (which became the Talon company) from the Hookless #1 (of 1912, which failed in practice) to the first success in 1913 (Hookless #2). The book ends with the epic Talon 42 Little Zipper of the early 1960s. A classic.

Even the little-known link with Lightning Fasteners of Birmingham, England is discussed!

Alan - you sound like my sort of chap! And that sounds like my sort of book! I am very interested in the connection between TALON and LIGHTNING. The latter, as you know, were one of the great UK zip companies in the 30s and 40s and were THE great UK zip co. in the 50s and 60s. But it is very hard to find out anything about them, when they started, the exact dates of particular patterns etc. Anyway, I noticed the talon link "in the field" when I came across what appeared to be Talons but marked as Lightning on some old - usually Canadian - jackets. I'll post some pictures. Watch this space...

 

[nightandthecity]

OK here goes......

....BTW, what exactly does your book say about the link between the two companies? cheers!

 

[BellyTank]

Trousers/Zippers-

There were plenty of trousers with zipper flies in the '30s.
Department stores and mail order outfits fitted them...

Look at any Ward's or Sears catalogues from the era.
I have a Fall/Winter '35 Montgomery Ward catalogue in front of me- zippers on everything- sweaters, leather jackets, shirts, pants...

'Slide fasteners' and they look to be Talon brand.

B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

Talon and Lightning

Dear Fedoralounge members,

I would like to make it clear from the outset that I am a much more charismatic person than this posting would suggest, with interests that include archeology and history, art and literature as well as philosophy and the metaphysical.

I am also into zip fasteners. By the way, the word 'zipper' was first used (but not registered) by the Goodrich Corporation of Akron Ohio in 1923. They made galoshes.

OK, here's the link between Talon and Lightning. The Automatic Fastener Co(which later became Hookless which later became Talon) employed a Swedish/German engineer named Sundback who patented a toothed fastener called the Plako in 1913 (Pat. no. 1,060,3780). They were, incidentally, used in mens' pants soon after this. Sundback later patented an improved version (Pat. no. 1,236,784) which is essentially the zipper as we know it today. During WW1 Hookless held the US rights, but Sundback cleverly contrived to keep the rights for the rest of the world.

Also during WW1 Birmingham UK arms manufurer Kynock (which in 1926 joined dynamite producers Nobel to form Imperial Chemical Industries or ICI). As WW1 ended and the demand for arms reduced, Kynoch looked for alternative future products and identified the revolutionary new fastener as a possibility. Zips (as they are called in the UK) were made at Witton in Birmingham. As one of the big overseas markets was Canada, it made sense for Kynoch to open a factory there, whcih it did (in Quebec) in 1924. Kynich was able to send over administrators and managers, but lacked a top engineer/designer. They approached Sundback, who assigned the rights to the patents in exchange for all the stock of the Canadian Lightning Fastener Co. and became its first president. Sundback moved the Canadian operation to Ontario to be near the Hookless plant at Meadville, and since Sundback was associated with both companies in a consulting role, in effect creating a joint co-operation which ran throughout the 1920s and 1930s. Incidentally, during this period Prentice began to make zippers that Lightning claimed infringed Sunback's patents. After a legal battle that lasted until 1934, Lightning won the case. Sunback was now employed as a consultant by Talon (as Hookless now chose to be called on its products) with rights to sell in the USA and also owned Canadian Lightning with rights to sell in the rest of the world. Thus, some Canadian-made Lightnings look very like US-made Talons because Sundback designed and engineered both in his different roles. Incidentally, the Hookless Fastener Co. became Talon Inc. in January 1937.

I hope this helps.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Y'all will talk about anything...

 

[Bebop]

Y'all will talk about anything...

Not only is that funny but you are correct, Bob. There is always an expert on anything you ever want to bring up here. An expert on the history of zippers. Who would of thought. I love it.:cheers1:

 

[Senator Jack]

Okay, I thought Alan was being sarcastic with the first post, (an exciting zipper tome?) but then when Night came in about the link between Almagamated zipper and Consolidated zipper I really thought this was a Python skit. (I envision Jones and Palin as our heroes) Oh you Brits.

Regards,

Senator 'Two-Zippers' Jack

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Dry ass Brit humor...

The boxer shorts thread lasted three or four pages. Why not zippers?

 

[nightandthecity]

Seriously guys, zips are very important, for several reasons!

Firstly, they are one of the main ways we have of more precisely dating a garment. Also a good way of deciding the national origins in the absence of labels etc. I can often tell at a glance where and when an item is from just by looking at the zip.

Secondly, zips, snaps, buckles etc. vary greatly in quality just like anything else. And hardware is as much part of the quality of an item as the stitching or the material or anything else. And if it is visible hardware - like the zip on a leather jacket - it also affects the item?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s appearance. You wouldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t want to spend ?Ǭ£400 on a horsehide jacket if it had a crappy plastic YKK running down the front of it like a long paint slash.

Incidentally - I would ALSO like to make it clear from the outset - if I may quote Alan - ?¢‚Ǩ?ìthat I am a much more charismatic person than this posting would suggest, with interests that include archeology and history, music and literature as well as philosophy and the metaphysical?¢‚Ǩ?.

 

[Senator Jack]

Thanks for understanding how we Yanks found this a bit humorous. I know we have our idiocyncracies that must appear fabuslously comic to you Brits. To paraphrase Terry Thomas in 'It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World':

'What is it with you Yanks and and your obsession with bosoms? It's always bosoms this and bosoms that, and how are we going to go about finding bosoms?'

Anyway, I can of course see the importance of dating clothes by the zipper, and I probably should know more about it as I sometimes can only estimate the vintage of a suit by the length of the pants zipper, but as that's all I know, I am going to seriously follow this thread now to pick up tips.

Thanks Gents,

Senator Jack

 

[BellyTank]

In the World of Vintage Clothing- zippers are a big deal-
Same goes for the World of Flight Jackets- zippers, zippers, zippers...

B
T