Your Favorite Big Band

[LizzieMaine]

"Everybody, of course, except black people."

The utter silliness of that production number aside, you have, I see, missed someting. The "Melting Pot of Music" that Whiteman was pictured to be stirring was the drum on which the "African" (actually a blacked-up Ken shawn, as I recall) danced at the start of the number.

Jacques Cartier, actually -- doing an authentic Haitian dance, probably the first time anything like that had ever been shown in a mainstream film. No blackface was used -- the entire scene was shot with trick lighting to throw the dancer into shadow so all you see is his silhouette. In his opening narration, Whiteman declares that "jazz began in Africa, to the beat of the voodoo drum." Granted, voodoo is Haitian, not properly African, but neither Whiteman nor John Murray Anderson -- who properly deserves credit/blame for the number -- were anthropologists.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

My favorite would have to be Jack Hylton even though his swing period was relatively brief -- he had been around since the 1920s. The outbreak of the war in 1939 spelled the end of the Jack Hylton band. Hylton dissolved the band and retired when many of the members were either drafted or had enlisted in the Forces.

 

[vitanola]

Jacques Cartier, actually -- doing an authentic Haitian dance, probably the first time anything like that had ever been shown in a mainstream film. No blackface was used -- the entire scene was shot with trick lighting to throw the dancer into shadow so all you see is his silhouette. In his opening narration, Whiteman declares that "jazz began in Africa, to the beat of the voodoo drum." Granted, voodoo is Haitian, not properly African, but neither Whiteman nor John Murray Anderson -- who properly deserves credit/blame for the number -- were anthropologists.

Thank you for the correction regarding Mr. Cartier. For all of these years I have assumed that the dance done on the drum was some of Shawn's pseudo-primitivism, not an actual dance in a traditional idiom.

I'm familiar with Mr. Marsalis' rather one-sided racial assertions about jazz, what of Mr. Sudhalters? The last book of his that I read was "Bix". Did Mr. Sudhalter put the argument for jazz being trans-racial development onto paper?

 

[LizzieMaine]

"Lost Chords," published in 1998. A definitive, exhaustively-referenced summary of the "melting pot" theory of jazz. There's also a companion CD released in conjunction with the book that contains the records referenced therein.

I showed the "King of Jazz" segment to a friend of mine who has taught Afro-Carribean dancing for over twenty years, having studied under Arthur Hall, and she was very very impressed with Cartier's performance in the film.

 

[Miss 1929]

So many to reply to I am not even going to try and quote and reply to all, it's tedious...
But a few thoughts -

Vitanola, yes to Bennie Moten! But I think Whiteman's biggest draw and jazz/swing innovation was actually Bix Beiderbeck. When Bix left the band, they took a major plunge in hotness. And really to compare Whiteman to Ellington isn't fair, one is an arranger and the other a serious composer.

I think the evanescent quality of swing is entirely missing from most of Miller's recordings. Probably the result of overproduction to make the music comfortable for the common denominator. I know a lot of you like him, but I can take it or leave it. In fact, it really isn't swing per se, but big band, a rather different animal.

Of course I am speaking from a MUSICIAN'S perspective, which is rather different than a listener, or a dancer alone (and of course, I listen and dance too). It feels really different as you're hearing it, when you are used to creating those feelings inside, then executing them. Bland is the word that comes to mind when I hear Miller.

One note about different dance tempos, ballads etc. - I think that part of why my band is not as popular as some of the swing bands out here is that I do vary the types and tempos all night. So Ballroom dancers love us, but the Lindy crowd (the kind who keep dancing when the band is done because they haven't finished their choreography yet) wants the same tempo all night long. BORING. Unfortunately, the few places left to play for pay in public think they want "the sizzle, not the steak" ( I was actually told that was why we lost a gig, "you're too good") and would rather have the trend than actual entertainment. It's sad as they will ultimately lose the customers when the trend is past.

 

[Fletch]

Of course, then they get to dispense with live music altogether, and feel particularly smart and shrewd in that decision because It Didn't Pay.

But you're right, it's sad when entrepreneurs learn to recognize quality and still consider it a losing proposition. One of the less endearing anecdotes about Glenn Miller is that he used to carefully note his sidemen's reaction to playing new charts. Anything they obviously enjoyed went straight into the dumper, on the principle that it was too sophisticated for the paying crowd.

 

[Miss 1929]

Fletch, that last bit is really sad! Imagie the great tunes and performances that could have been!

 

[Widebrim]

I'm familiar with Mr. Marsalis' rather one-sided racial assertions about jazz, what of Mr. Sudhalters? The last book of his that I read was "Bix". Did Mr. Sudhalter put the argument for jazz being trans-racial development onto paper?

Sudhalter's book, Lost Chords: White Musicians and Their Contribution to Jazz, 1915-1945, attempts to do so, and includes references to lesser-known figures such as Emmett Hardy, Adrian Rollins, and Nick LaRocca (the latter being the leader of the Original Dixieland Jazz Band).

A much-earlier White figure who played proto-jazz was Papa Jack Laine, who around 1885 played with a "ragged time," which meant he was employing variations on the tempo to make it swing. Many of the Black, Creole, and White members of Laine's Reliance Brass Band went on to pioneer Jazz in their own bands.

 

[Aristaeus]

I think the evanescent quality of swing is entirely missing from most of Miller's recordings. Probably the result of overproduction to make the music comfortable for the common denominator. I know a lot of you like him, but I can take it or leave it. In fact, it really isn't swing per se, but big band, a rather different animal.

swing music
–noun
1. Also called Big Band music, swing music. a style of jazz, popular esp. in the 1930s and often arranged for a large dance band, marked by a smoother beat and more flowing phrasing than Dixieland and having less complex harmonies and rhythms than modern jazz.

2. swing
A kind of jazz generally played by a “Big Band” and characterized by a lively rhythm suitable for dancing. The bands of Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, and Glenn Miller played swing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/swing+music

To say that Glenn Miller isn't a Swing Band is like saying the Beatles weren't a Rock n Roll Band. The Glenn Miller Orchestra played Swing music and he had the number one Swing, Big Band of the 1930's and early 40's and I am fairly sure he still does today.
Harry James was the second most popular Swing, Big Band during this time.

 

[Paisley]

One note about different dance tempos, ballads etc. - I think that part of why my band is not as popular as some of the swing bands out here is that I do vary the types and tempos all night. So Ballroom dancers love us, but the Lindy crowd (the kind who keep dancing when the band is done because they haven't finished their choreography yet) wants the same tempo all night long. BORING.

Have a bunch of lindy hoppers actually told you that they want the same tempo all night long? I've been in the Denver swing scene for nearly eight years and have never heard anyone say this. (Nor do I know of anyone who does choreographed lindy outside of performances, but that's neither here nor there.) About the only complaint I hear regarding tempo is that the band or DJ is playing too many fast songs. I imagine too many slow songs would elicit complaints, too.

I'm happy to support live local music and I love it when bands enjoy the dancers. That said, it's not unreasonable to expect a band that has been hired to play at a swing dance to take appropriate requests, play a program of songs that most of the crowd can swing to, and at least pretend not to be bored.

 

[dhermann1]

Well, this thread has certainly elicited an interesting discussion of Big Band and Swing music, but the original poll is certainly a shambles! lol

 

[Carlisle Blues]

One note about different dance tempos, ballads etc. - I think that part of why my band is not as popular as some of the swing bands out here is that I do vary the types and tempos all night. So Ballroom dancers love us, but the Lindy crowd (the kind who keep dancing when the band is done because they haven't finished their choreography yet) wants the same tempo all night long. BORING. Unfortunately, the few places left to play for pay in public think they want "the sizzle, not the steak"

I understand the frustration you speak of. I am a solo performer and I get requests for specific songs that I have done for years. Apparently I do them well enough that people identify me with those songs. I do find the songs tedious, as I am expanding my style and skills toward a more 1920's feel as well as others eras. However, I am very grateful that I can bring a sense of happiness and joy to those who listen to me. When I see them dance or smile or sing it reminds me that I have truly been given a gift and the opportunity to share that with another which has always given me more joy than I have provided.

 

[Chas]

But you're right, it's sad when entrepreneurs learn to recognize quality and still consider it a losing proposition. One of the less endearing anecdotes about Glenn Miller is that he used to carefully note his sidemen's reaction to playing new charts. Anything they obviously enjoyed went straight into the dumper, on the principle that it was too sophisticated for the paying crowd.

You know, the more I learn about Miller the less I like him, and the more I like the Duke - who composed and arranged specifically for his sidemen. "Concerto For Cootie" and "Boy Meets Horn" now mean more to me than all the Miller sides, combined.

Anybody want to buy some Miller 78s? Cheap?

 

[Mr. 'H']

You know, the more I learn about Miller the less I like him....

:eusa_doh:

How so, specifically?

 

[Chas]

:eusa_doh:
How so, specifically?

Dude, I'm a musician who digs Lester Young, Duke Ellington and company. You figure it out. Like the George Hamilton IV song goes, If You Don't Know, I Ain't Gonna Tell Ya

Some of us dig 52nd Street and uptown, the rest dig something else. Not all swing is jazz. I am a jazz fan. Figure it out. Miller was the shlockmeister from the planet wongo. For me, listening to him is like eating baloney sandwiches when there is steak, crawfish etoufee and caviar to be had. With a $200 bottle of Chateau Margaux to wash it down.

I'm so done with this thread. Enough of the Republican swing music fans. Done.... so done.

 

[Mr. 'H']

Okaaaay....

Are you having a bad day? Although I have to commend your writing style, it is very James Ellroyesque!

:eusa_clap

 

[LizzieMaine]

OK, now that he's gotten that out of his system, let's keep in mind this thread isn't about your favorite *jazz* band, or sticking your tongue out at those who prefer "Republican Swing Bands" (Wendell Willkie and his Ten Red States, with vocals by Tom Dewey and the lovely Claire Booth Luce -- what a swell band that was!)

If you like hot or sweet, traditional or outre, any Big Band is fair game for discussion in this thread, and there are no "right" answers.

 

[Harp]

If you like hot or sweet, traditional or outre, any Big Band is fair game for discussion in this thread, and there are no "right" answers.

Glenn Miller/Billy Eckstine.

 

[Aristaeus]

You know, the more I learn about Miller the less I like him, and the more I like the Duke - who composed and arranged specifically for his sidemen. "Concerto For Cootie" and "Boy Meets Horn" now mean more to me than all the Miller sides, combined.

Anybody want to buy some Miller 78s? Cheap?

All this from a quote that Fletch made? WoW!

 

[Fletch]

I don't know whether to feel flattered or what.

The sideman who said that - can't remember who - said Miller was right to do it too. He didn't elaborate.

It was probably more reliable than asking a random sample of giggling kids what they liked hearing - they'd like everything live. But Glenn wanted to sell records - he was the first big bandleader with a royalty deal since Isham Jones in the mid 20s. And the kids of that day bought records very cautiously - likely with an ear toward what would be acceptable on the parlor electrola. Musicians' tastes, OTOH, tended toward too much variety and arrangements that didn't "sell" the song.