Your Favorite Big Band

[Miss 1929]

Since the band is the total sum of all its parts, I have to say BASIE, BABY! They are the best at swinging together in a unit.

I would say next favorite is Ellington, for his amazing compositions and unique sound, followed by Cab Calloway for sheer craziness.

Miller I can take or leave, it sounds very "white" to my ear. But Goodman! Now., that cat could blow!

 

[Widebrim]

I don't entirely disagree, but I think you're not giving Miler enough credit. I'm not saying he was one of the great players of all time or anything, but he sure worked steadily, and with some top-notch groups, before he started leading his own bands, so he clearly brought something to the table as a musician.

He also crafted a distinct sound that clicked with (and is still beloved by) the public -- no small achievement.

I think that is a very large part of Miller's popularity-that "distinct" sound that, after years of experimenting, he finally hit upon around 1939. As far as bands go, Miller's is (are) my favorite(s).

 

[Widebrim]

Since the band is the total sum of all its parts, I have to say BASIE, BABY! They are the best at swinging together in a unit.

I would say next favorite is Ellington, for his amazing compositions and unique sound, followed by Cab Calloway for sheer craziness.

Miller I can take or leave, it sounds very "white" to my ear. But Goodman! Now., that cat could blow!

And what does sounding very "white" mean?[huh]

 

[vitanola]

And it appears that none have yet mentioned Fletcher Henderson!

For big band Jazz hi sides are nonpariel. From the early stuff with Armstrong & Hawkins, a la "Dicty Blues", "Prince of Wails" and "Sugar Foot Stomp", through his "classic period" waxings like "Clarinet Marmalade", "St. Louis Shuffle", "Variety Stomp", "Blazin'' and "My Pretty Girl" on to hard-swinging platters like "Down South Camp Meeting", "Christopher Columbus", "Riffin'", "Radio Rhythm", "Stampede" and "New King Porter Stomp" his was a band justly famous in its day, and famous still amongst jazz afficianados, but for nome reason not too well known to the swing community at large.

 

[Chas]

And what does sounding very "white" mean?[huh]

I know exactly what that means.

White = Commercial, predictable, safe, squeaky clean and intended for mass consumption. For example, I don't believe that there was ever an entertainer who was referred to as "The Black Lawrence Welk".

 

[LizzieMaine]

I know exactly what that means.

White = Commercial, predictable, safe, squeaky clean and intended for mass consumption. For example, I don't believe that there was ever an entertainer who was referred to as "The Black Lawrence Welk".

Check out some mid-thirties Noble Sissle records, for an example of a black band that sounded every bit as commercial and "mass consumption oriented" as any white group. And then there's Jimmie Lunceford, who could reasonably be called the Black Kay Kyser, with his fondness for funny hats and wacky antics on the bandstand.

Some of Calloway's stuff was awfully commercial and predictable as well -- not in a Mickey Mouse sense, but no less turned out according to a successful formula. It's no coincidence that he was probably the most successful black artist among white record buyers during the early thirties -- even up here, in the Whitest State In The Union, his records are still as common as Nat Shilkret's. If that's not "commercial" I dunno what is.

 

[vitanola]

I know exactly what that means.

White = Commercial, predictable, safe, squeaky clean and intended for mass consumption. For example, I don't believe that there was ever an entertainer who was referred to as "The Black Lawrence Welk".

No, but in the early 1920's, Fletcher Henderson, who was recording director and chief accompanist for Black Swan, aspired to be "the Negro Paul Whiteman", a coal that he pretty much achieved in 1924. His orchestra developed in a different direction after 1925. Many give credit to the influence of a trumpeter that he brought in from Chicago for a year, a young Louis Armstrong, and most importantly on Armstrong's influence on Henderson's other soloists.

And besides, "WHITE"??? Do you mean "White" like Champion 16192, "Shake That Thing' by Barbecue Joe & His Hot Dogs, or "White" like "Wailing Blues", Broadway 1355 by Harry's Reckless Five, the same number by the Cellar Boys, on Brunswick 80066, Vocalion 15858, Farewell Blues by the Venuti-Lang All-Star Orchestra, or perhaps the pioneering "cool" sides by the Trubauer organization, such as Okeh 40772 "Singin' the Blues" or "For No Reason at All, In C" (Columbia 35667).

Then we have the odd-balls, like Gowan's Rhapsody Makers' enthusiastic, though technically imperfect waxing of "I'll Fly to Hawaii", Gennett 3408, or the similarly frenetic sides by Hitches Happy Hermonists or Carmichael's Collegians.

 

[Forgotten Man]

Ah, the “White sound”… I always love when “Whites” make a reference as to music sounding “White”. Ya say it like it’s a bad thing.

I remember being at Memories dancing once… a friend of mine who is one of the palest kids I know idolizes Frankie Manning the famous lindy hopper from the 30s… he was an amazing dancer, and I’ve met him several times, nothing but class that man! Anyway, we’re watching a couple dance “Hollywood” style… a very clean and smooth style of lindy that came about on the west coast in the 40s. Hey said: I don’t like Hollywood style, it’s the white man that perverted Lindy Hop! I had to explain to him that when a popular dance goes national, it’s bound to encounter changes and people will always ad and take away things to it till they make it their own… even then in dancing no one wanted to dance like everyone else.

It’s like the game of telephone, you start with one word and by the time the last person hears it, it’s totally different than the word you first said.

 

[Forgotten Man]

Check out some mid-thirties Noble Sissle records, for an example of a black band that sounded every bit as commercial and "mass consumption oriented" as any white group. And then there's Jimmie Lunceford, who could reasonably be called the Black Kay Kyser, with his fondness for funny hats and wacky antics on the bandstand.

Some of Calloway's stuff was awfully commercial and predictable as well -- not in a Mickey Mouse sense, but no less turned out according to a successful formula. It's no coincidence that he was probably the most successful black artist among white record buyers during the early thirties -- even up here, in the Whitest State In The Union, his records are still as common as Nat Shilkret's. If that's not "commercial" I dunno what is.

:eusa_clap

 

[Paisley]

Ah, the “White sound”… I always love when “Whites” make a reference as to music sounding “White”. Ya say it like it’s a bad thing.

I remember being at Memories dancing once… a friend of mine who is one of the palest kids I know idolizes Frankie Manning the famous lindy hopper from the 30s… he was an amazing dancer, and I’ve met him several times, nothing but class that man! Anyway, we’re watching a couple dance “Hollywood” style… a very clean and smooth style of lindy that came about on the west coast in the 40s. Hey said: I don’t like Hollywood style, it’s the white man that perverted Lindy Hop! I had to explain to him that when a popular dance goes national, it’s bound to encounter changes and people will always ad and take away things to it till they make it their own… even then in dancing no one wanted to dance like everyone else.

fftopic:
I thought partner dancing originally came from white people. [huh]

 

[Forgotten Man]

fftopic:

The lindy hop came from the Charleston... roots to the dance can be seen in the late 20s. I could be wrong, but I recall that a famous dancer was starting to break-away from his partner and someone asked him what he was doing... he said: I’m doin' the Lindy Hop! In reference to Charles Lindbergh flying to Paris… was known as the “Lindy Hop” and was still a big talk for the rest of that decade! And I believe that was in Harlem. That's what I heard but, could be wrong.

We now return this thread to its original intended topic.

 

[Miss 1929]

fftopic:
I thought partner dancing originally came from white people. [huh]

You're right - from the minuet, to the contra dance. After the contra, ballroom breaks off in different directions. In Cuba, for instance, it became the danzon. Then the blacks in Cuba took the danzon and mixed it with their steps from African dances and made the cha cha cha, which has evolved into the "salsa" - although real Cubans says "salsa? what is that?"

And it had a similar evolution all over the place.

Chas gets exactly what I mean by bands sounding "white". And yes, even black bands could sound white (and may still do).

Not that whiteness in itself is a bad thing, but in the world of jazz music...

It's sort of like Louis Armstrong said about jazz, if you have to ask what it is you can't understand it.

Didn't mean to open a racial kettle of fish here!

And yes, FLETCHER HENDERSON! Many of the white big bands used his charts - and in the opinion of some, eviscerated the tunes.

 

[Aristaeus]

Miller I can take or leave, it sounds very "white" to my ear. But Goodman! Now., that cat could blow!

Glenn Miller's sound has nothing to do with being or sounding "White" it is a perfection of swing music that his style now defines.

 

[Fletch]

And it appears that none have yet mentioned Fletcher Henderson!

For big band Jazz hi sides are nonpariel. From the early stuff with Armstrong & Hawkins, a la "Dicty Blues", "Prince of Wails" and "Sugar Foot Stomp", through his "classic period" waxings like "Clarinet Marmalade", "St. Louis Shuffle", "Variety Stomp", "Blazin'' and "My Pretty Girl" on to hard-swinging platters like "Down South Camp Meeting", "Christopher Columbus", "Riffin'", "Radio Rhythm", "Stampede" and "New King Porter Stomp" his was a band justly famous in its day, and famous still amongst jazz afficianados, but for nome reason not too well known to the swing community at large.

If you mean the swing dancing community, there's a reason.

Many vintage recordings - created for an audience of mostly social dancers - are too fast or too slow for the typical serious swing dancer. These folks come out to display moves and form that they've practiced long and carefully. These moves work best in a groove of 90-100 half notes per minute - about In the Mood tempo.

In Henderson's case, much of his swinging-est work is just a tick too fast for this type of dancing. The band was most at home up around 120 to the half note.

Henderson's "not quite immortal" status is another reason. Despite his tremendous importance in creating and defining swing, he really predates what casual listeners (and serious dancers) regard as the Swing Era - and that's when all the big names come from. See the OP's poll.

Neither fish nor Fletch?

 

[Fletch]

Miller does a pretty good job on the 1928 Bennie(sic) Goodman & His Boys sessions, holding his own with Dorsey. He made fine contributions to quite a number of Ben Pollack sides, as well as some Shilkret sessions. His work on the Mound City Blue Blowers' "Hello Lola" and "One Hour" should establish his jazz bona fides, for on "Hello Lola", Miller's chorus immediately follows Coleman Hawkins' justly famous double chorus. Miller's work holds up well in this august company.

My take on Glenn is that he played "arranger's trombone" - that's what he really was best at, after all, was orchestration.

Yes, he could play tasty solo work in the '20s, but it always had a rough edge. Sitting beside Big T and TD all the time, he quickly learned his place. Between "Hello Lola" and about 1938 - nearly a decade - I don't believe he played a bar of solo bone on record.

When he got his own band, he featured himself very sparingly, then not at all - strictly section lead, which was suited to his rather light, bright tone.

 

[Forgotten Man]

If you mean the swing dancing community, there's a reason.

Many vintage recordings - created for an audience of mostly social dancers - are too fast or too slow for the typical serious swing dancer. These folks come out to display moves and form that they've practiced long and carefully. These moves work best in a groove of 90-100 half notes per minute - about In the Mood tempo.

I agree to a point, but most dancers out here aren't even listening to "swing music" They all have gone Bluesy on us out here!

When a good solid song comes on, even if a little fast, you'd only see some of the more expert dancers dance to it... or I because I love the driving sounds of those mid 30s swing songs! They get in me and TELL me to dance, not softly invite, but seem to YELL in my ear to get off my seat and dance!

There is a style of dance that is best for mid 30s hard swing... its shag or balboa! Dancers today just think they can lindy to every brand of music... and if they can't then the music isn't "danceable"... forget those squares man! If they can't hang, they can just go home and cry about it.lol

I'm starting to become like Artie Shaw, I have grown distaste for most common dancers… all whiny square Clair’s strictly from Dixie, the whole lot of’em! lol

 

[Paisley]

fftopic:

If you mean the swing dancing community, there's a reason.

Many vintage recordings - created for an audience of mostly social dancers - are too fast or too slow for the typical serious swing dancer. These folks come out to display moves and form that they've practiced long and carefully. These moves work best in a groove of 90-100 half notes per minute - about In the Mood tempo.

The serious swing dancers here can lindy to "Jumpin' at the Woodside." That used to be the theme song for the Tuesday night jam circle.

If anything, dancers here, at least, are *not* very picky about what they'll dance to.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I guess for me the idea of criticising "white music" for not being "black enough" is like criticising tomato soup for not being vegetable-beef. Music intended for jitterbugging and music intended for hotel dancing are two entirely different things, intended for entirely different purposes and can't reasonably be judged one against the other -- and neither, in my view, is "culturally superior" or "more authentic" than the other. There's room for both on my shelf.

As for commercialization, let's not forget things like the stacks of garden-variety pop tunes Duke Ellington recorded over the years (Sid Garry vocals, anyone?), or the novelty/personality tunes that Louis Armstrong cranked out by the dozen from the late thirties onward. No performer, no matter how hallowed by modern critics, was above this sort of thing -- money needed to be made, and they made what sold. No record company and no recording artist that devoted themselves purely to "art" ever survived.

 

[Chas]

I agree to a point, but most dancers out here aren't even listening to "swing music" They all have gone Bluesy on us out here!

When a good solid song comes on, even if a little fast, you'd only see some of the more expert dancers dance to it... or I because I love the driving sounds of those mid 30s swing songs! They get in me and TELL me to dance, not softly invite, but seem to YELL in my ear to get off my seat and dance!

There is a style of dance that is best for mid 30s hard swing... its shag or balboa! Dancers today just think they can lindy to every brand of music... and if they can't then the music isn't "danceable"... forget those squares man! If they can't hang, they can just go home and cry about it.lol

I'm starting to become like Artie Shaw, I have grown distaste for most common dancers… all whiny square Clair’s strictly from Dixie, the whole lot of’em! lol

It's happened in a lot of places. I used to dance a lot, but the hardcore swing dancers turn up in their jeans, t-shirts and deck shoes demanding a steady diet of "windshield wipers"

Glenn Miller's sound has nothing to do with being or sounding "White" it is a perfection of swing music that his style now defines.

It's the perfection of his style of swing music. It's highly debatable and another question entirely if his style is swing perfection. Are you saying that Miller outswings Basie?

Check out some mid-thirties Noble Sissle records, for an example of a black band that sounded every bit as commercial and "mass consumption oriented" as any white group. And then there's Jimmie Lunceford, who could reasonably be called the Black Kay Kyser, with his fondness for funny hats and wacky antics on the bandstand.

Some of Calloway's stuff was awfully commercial and predictable as well -- not in a Mickey Mouse sense, but no less turned out according to a successful formula. It's no coincidence that he was probably the most successful black artist among white record buyers during the early thirties -- even up here, in the Whitest State In The Union, his records are still as common as Nat Shilkret's. If that's not "commercial" I dunno what is.

Not sure what your point is, Liz. Lots of black-produced music is commercial. Even Ellington pumped out a few, because the bottom line had to be met. Comparing Lunceford to Kyser is pretty laughable, because I've heard Kyser and Lunceford. Lunceford had a show band, and the show was the thing. By your reasoning The Nicholas Brothers were "white". I didn't say that all black jazz was non-commercial, just that white jazz is/was, meaning that the swing music produced by white orchestras (a distinction that worked up to the 1940's) is distinctly different in it's style and content from black orchestras.

Miller himself openly stated "I don't want a jazz band."

 

[vitanola]

fftopic:

The lindy hop came from the Charleston... roots to the dance can be seen in the late 20s. I could be wrong, but I recall that a famous dancer was starting to break-away from his partner and someone asked him what he was doing... he said: I’m doin' the Lindy Hop! In reference to Charles Lindbergh flying to Paris… was known as the “Lindy Hop” and was still a big talk for the rest of that decade! And I believe that was in Harlem. That's what I heard but, could be wrong.

We now return this thread to its original intended topic.

No, Forgotten Man, it appears that the dances with "break-away" steps are descended from the "Texas Tommy Swing", a dance that first surfaced in the infamous Barbary Coast dance halls of San Fransisco around 1909, the original source of quite a number of the famous steps of the Ragtime era. We have remarkable footage of this dance dating to 1914, which may be seen HERE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Q_BHIniAM

Certainly doesn't look like a Rag-time dance, does it? Quite modern, at least to these old eyes. though the hobble-skirt dresses of the ladies don't seem to quite fit the "swing" steps.