Your Favorite Big Band

[vitanola]

It's happened in a lot of places. I used to dance a lot, but the hardcore swing dancers turn up in their jeans, t-shirts and deck shoes demanding a steady diet of "windshield wipers"



It's the perfection of his style of swing music. It's highly debatable and another question entirely if his style is swing perfection. Are you saying that Miller outswings Basie?



Not sure what your point is, Liz. Lots of black-produced music is commercial. Even Ellington pumped out a few, because the bottom line had to be met. Comparing Lunceford to Kyser is pretty laughable, because I've heard Kyser and Lunceford. Lunceford had a show band, and the show was the thing. By your reasoning The Nicholas Brothers were "white". I didn't say that all black jazz was non-commercial, just that white jazz is/was, meaning that the swing music produced by white orchestras (a distinction that worked up to the 1940's) is distinctly different in it's style and content from black orchestras.

Miller himself openly stated "I don't want a jazz band."

Chas, when I was younger I thought much as you do. I read the critical literature and the liner notes, and swallowed them whole. Over the past thirty years, however, I have made a pretty thorough study of the musical output of our recording industry during the first half of the Twentieth Century AS A WHOLE. In my late fire, I lost a 40 cubic yard dumpster of discs, which included a nearly compete run of the Victor 16000 series, the Victor 38000 series, the Black Swan catalog (including the red label Classical series) nearly full series of most of the dime-store labels, a nearly full run fo the D series Columbias, etc. Having immersed myself in hundreds of thousands of these discs and cylinders for many years, I conclude that yes, there are stylistic differences, but they seem to be more geographic and temporal rather than racial. Papa Celestin and Tony Parenti's contemporaneus recordings have a great deal more in common that they they differ.

Some of the differences that you note may be due to the requirements of the different audiences of dancers, some may be due to differing priorities of the bands management. A Fletcher Henderson arrangement may perhaps swing a bit more when played by the Henderson band than when played by the more precise Goodman organisation, but the arranger himself claimed to prefer the discipline of the Goodman group to his own excellent band.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Not sure what your point is, Liz. Lots of black-produced music is commercial. Even Ellington pumped out a few, because the bottom line had to be met. Comparing Lunceford to Kyser is pretty laughable, because I've heard Kyser and Lunceford.

As have I. Listen to something like Lunceford's "Rhythm In My Nursery Rhymes," and you'll get the same sort of cutesy novelty vocal and stylized arrangement you might have heard from Kyser. Not identical, of course, but similar enough to appeal to the same sort of record buyer. Both were, as you say, show bands -- one black, one white, but not too different under the skin in their essential appeal.

My point is that I simply don't buy into the dogma that good swing has a pure "racial" quality. Swing, as I hear it, is African, but it's also Scotch-Irish, Jewish, and Eastern European.

 

[vitanola]

Since the band is the total sum of all its parts, I have to say BASIE, BABY! They are the best at swinging together in a unit.

I would say next favorite is Ellington, for his amazing compositions and unique sound, followed by Cab Calloway for sheer craziness.

Miller I can take or leave, it sounds very "white" to my ear. But Goodman! Now., that cat could blow!

Bennie Moten?
Of course, being old-fashioned, I tend top prefer his two-beat stuff ("Tough Breaks Stomp", "Yazoo Blues", "She's No Trouble") or his ricky-tick four beat ("Goofy Dust, "Kater Street Rag", "Tulsa Blues") to his swing of the 'thirties, like 1932's "The Only Girl I Ever Loved", "Toby" (a real scorcher!) "Blue Room", "Prince of Wails" (with it's 2 superb piano choruses by Bill Basie) or his "Moten Swing".

 

[Mysterious Mose]

My point is that I simply don't buy into the dogma that good swing has a pure "racial" quality. Swing, as I hear it, is African, but it's also Scotch-Irish, Jewish, and Eastern European.

I fully agree, but I'd like to mention the French/Belgian Accordeon virtuosi, even if most of 'em were Roma, Italian, Spanish. Anyway, the French really made it (Jass) their own from the very start. The first Dutch "Jazz" record: "Naar de Bollen", by Louis Davids ( It's a beauty, incredibly funny lyrics), from 1932 (!) had to be recorded in London, with an English backing band .

 

[dhermann1]

A few comments: This whole "white" thing: I ain't touchin' it. However, I do feel that Goodman's versions of some of Fletcher Hernderson's charts were a little too clean and didn't swing quite as well as the original. As far as Miller is concerned, I totally love the man. I think his swing tunes are better than they sometimes get credit for. But he clearly knew his bread and butter was the ballads. Which brings me to a MAJOR issue of mine. What the heck ever happened to the ballads??? Most dance bands of the day would probably play at least two ballads for every swing tune they did. Think of songs like "Moonlight Serenade", "Getting Sentimental Over You", and so many others. The question was which favorite Big Band, not Swing Band, but everybody acts as if the ballads didn't exist. You go to a dance with a live band and ask then to play something slow, and the best they can come up with is a slow blues. When they try Moonlight Serenade, they butcher it. The ballads swung in their own way. On Sinatra's album "The Man and His Music" (I think that's the title) he talks about when he first sang "I'll Be Seeing You". He quotes Tommy Dorsey as telling him "Swing it!" Which, if you really listen, is exactly what he does.
For all you dance crazed jitterbugs, it's a very, very nice thing to do a nice slow and sensuous foxtrot with your honey, or some pretty lady that you never laid eyes on before, for that matter, snuggled in close to you. And the music is what makes it happen.
OK, end of rant. But really, it irks me.
Oh, one more interesting (to me) thing about Glenn Miller that I read, was that he was not a great arranger himself, but he was a great editor of arrangements. That's how Joe Garland's song "In the Mood", which had been played in a longer version by many bands (I have a 6 minute live recording from 1938 of Artie Shaw doing it) suddenly became a smash hit, when Miller totally reshaped it.

 

[Chas]

A few comments: This whole "white" thing: I ain't touchin' it. However, I do feel that Goodman's versions of some of Fletcher Hernderson's charts were a little too clean and didn't swing quite as well as the original.

Bingo. My point exactly. For those uncomfortable with dogmas and black/white issues, at the end of the day an educated ear can tell the difference between a black and a white orchestra.

For all you dance crazed jitterbugs, it's a very, very nice thing to do a nice slow and sensuous foxtrot with your honey, or some pretty lady that you never laid eyes on before, for that matter, snuggled in close to you. And the music is what makes it happen.

I don't differentiate between ballads, "windshield wipers" and a "peabody" (high tempo number). It's all swing. You put your finger on one reason why I don't DJ for swing dancers much anymore. It's boring - I like playing ballads; Miller's "Moonlight Serenade" is one of my favorites. The swing scene is "out to lunch" on a number of things, and this is one of them.

Bennie Moten?
Of course, being old-fashioned, I tend top prefer his two-beat stuff ("Tough Breaks Stomp", "Yazoo Blues", "She's No Trouble") or his ricky-tick four beat ("Goofy Dust, "Kater Street Rag", "Tulsa Blues") to his swing of the 'thirties, like 1932's "The Only Girl I Ever Loved", "Toby" (a real scorcher!) "Blue Room", "Prince of Wails" (with it's 2 superb piano choruses by Bill Basie) or his "Moten Swing".

My personal choice as the best big Jazz band of the 1920's and early 30's, actually. I even put the Moten gang above Henderson. It's only an accident that changed the Moten Orchestra to the Basie Orchestra, when Benny died in an operation. I have no doubt that he would have done great things in the swing era. Note that I differentiate between a swing and jazz band. Henderson led the first true swing big band.

 

[Forgotten Man]

A few comments: This whole "white" thing: I ain't touchin' it. However, I do feel that Goodman's versions of some of Fletcher Hernderson's charts were a little too clean and didn't swing quite as well as the original. As far as Miller is concerned, I totally love the man. I think his swing tunes are better than they sometimes get credit for. But he clearly knew his bread and butter was the ballads. Which brings me to a MAJOR issue of mine. What the heck ever happened to the ballads??? Most dance bands of the day would probably play at least two ballads for every swing tune they did. Think of songs like "Moonlight Serenade", "Getting Sentimental Over You", and so many others. The question was which favorite Big Band, not Swing Band, but everybody acts as if the ballads didn't exist. You go to a dance with a live band and ask then to play something slow, and the best they can come up with is a slow blues. When they try Moonlight Serenade, they butcher it. The ballads swung in their own way. On Sinatra's album "The Man and His Music" (I think that's the title) he talks about when he first sang "I'll Be Seeing You". He quotes Tommy Dorsey as telling him "Swing it!" Which, if you really listen, is exactly what he does.
For all you dance crazed jitterbugs, it's a very, very nice thing to do a nice slow and sensuous foxtrot with your honey, or some pretty lady that you never laid eyes on before, for that matter, snuggled in close to you. And the music is what makes it happen.
OK, end of rant. But really, it irks me.
Oh, one more interesting (to me) thing about Glenn Miller that I read, was that he was not a great arranger himself, but he was a great editor of arrangements. That's how Joe Garland's song "In the Mood", which had been played in a longer version by many bands (I have a 6 minute live recording from 1938 of Artie Shaw doing it) suddenly became a smash hit, when Miller totally reshaped it.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

I agreeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Some of my most memorable moments on the dance floor is dancing to "Moonlight Serenade"... there's a few bands that play it well here and I never miss the chance to dance to that song... which can make me cry. One of the most beautiful songs of that era in my book which contains many sappy and sentimental songs in it, will always be Moonlight Serenade.

"I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" by Dorsey is a very special song to me too... the middle part with the sax section is just like heaven to me.

And everyone I've met raves about Etta James version of "At Last"... she did sing a good cover of that song but, for me it's Ray Eberle with Glenn Miller... that treatment of that song is just beautiful.

Helen Forrest sang some beautiful ballads with Shaw too such as “All the Things You Are” “Moon Ray” and so on… oh, and a special instrumental number of Shaw’s was “Alone Together”… whoa, that song has feeling to it!

One last thing, speaking of Frankie, his 1939 recording of "All or Nothing At All" with Harry James is nothing to forget... That was a speical number too. Oh, I could write a book! lol

 

[Chas]

Chas, when I was younger I thought much as you do. I read the critical literature and the liner notes, and swallowed them whole. Over the past thirty years, however, I have made a pretty thorough study of the musical output of our recording industry during the first half of the Twentieth Century AS A WHOLE. In my late fire, I lost a 40 cubic yard dumpster of discs, which included a nearly compete run of the Victor 16000 series, the Victor 38000 series, the Black Swan catalog (including the red label Classical series) nearly full series of most of the dime-store labels, a nearly full run fo the D series Columbias, etc. Having immersed myself in hundreds of thousands of these discs and cylinders for many years, I conclude that yes, there are stylistic differences, but they seem to be more geographic and temporal rather than racial. Papa Celestin and Tony Parenti's contemporaneus recordings have a great deal more in common that they they differ.

Some of the differences that you note may be due to the requirements of the different audiences of dancers, some may be due to differing priorities of the bands management. A Fletcher Henderson arrangement may perhaps swing a bit more when played by the Henderson band than when played by the more precise Goodman organisation, but the arranger himself claimed to prefer the discipline of the Goodman group to his own excellent band.

If the differences are only geographic, then why was there never a white bandleader of Ellington's stature? In terms of output and impact on the art form?

Discipline doesn't necessarily equal swing. Ellington had a group of highly competitive prima donnas who didn't take orders well, but they could certainly swing. A tight, disciplined organization can also sound stiff. The band sounds (particularly on its studio recordings) how the leader wants it to sound.

My condolences on your loss, by the way.

 

[Mysterious Mose]

There's only one bandleader of Ellington's stature, anyway.
Oh, and Lawrence Welk's Novelty Ork "Spiked Beer"? Brilliant!

 

[vitanola]

However, I do feel that Goodman's versions of some of Fletcher Hernderson's charts were a little too clean and didn't swing quite as well as the original... The question was which favorite Big Band, not Swing Band, but everybody acts as if the ballads didn't exist...

Well I would agree with your first assertion, to an extent. Oddly enough the precision of the Goodman recordings appears to have been Henderson's wish for his own band. I suspect his personality prevented him from making quite the same extreme demands on his musicians as did Goodman. That said, I, too found many of the Goodman sides to be just a bit too tight, and then I began to listen to airchecks. The bands live work generally HAS the extreme swing. I suspect that Goodman may have been a bit TOO obsessive during recording sessions. Note the differences between the general effect of the issued Victor waxing of "Sing, Sing, Sing" and the Carnagie Hall version.

Thanks for reminding some that "Big Band" and "Swing Band" are not necessarily synonyms.

 

[vitanola]

Never a white leader of Ellington's stature? What about Whiteman?

Very influential indeed, in the 1920's, at a time when Ellington was leading a very fine novelty jazz band, playing "Jungle Music". Whiteman, however, floated along on the currents of popular music after 1930, never affecting it an any lasting way therafter, whilst Ellington hit his stride in the mid 1930's, becoming the most influential musician of his generation.

That said, I find that Ellington's "Better" stuff leaves me cold. I prefer "Ring Dem Bells", "Diga Diga Doo" "East St Louis Toodle-Oo" and the "Creole Love Call" to "Do Nothing 'til You Hear From Me", "Sophisticated Lady" or "Take the A Train". It is this Ellingtonia that was so influential in jazz circles in the 1940's. Unfortunately, I do not care for this music. A blind spot of mine, perhaps.

When I began collecting, all of the "experts" maintained that the "White" jazz and dance music was not worth collecting at all. So many reams of paper have been wasted in facile explanations of Armstrong's absolute superiority to Beiderbeck, or that of Henderson to Bill Challis.

Try listening, again, to those amusing novelties made by "Blind Willie Dunn & His Gin-Bottle Four" and tell me what is black or white about the music. It's just good!

Of course there are some racial differences in music, they are just not, in my view, all important.

jkl

 

[LizzieMaine]

Well I would agree with your first assertion, to an extent. Oddly enough the precision of the Goodman recordings appears to have been Henderson's wish for his own band. I suspect his personality prevented him from making quite the same extreme demands on his musicians as did Goodman. That said, I, too found many of the Goodman sides to be just a bit too tight, and then I began to listen to airchecks. The bands live work generally HAS the extreme swing. I suspect that Goodman may have been a bit TOO obsessive during recording sessions.

Very good point, and one that bears repeating: when we hear commercially-released records today we're hearing a highly-polished finished product, but that's only part of what their original audiences heard. Live broadcasts were as important -- if not more important -- than records in building a band's reputation, and it's well worth seeking out surviving examples of those broadcasts before reaching a judgement on any particular orchestra's style. What was heard on the air was often much much looser than anything that could be squeezed onto one side of a 78.

As far as the black/white thing goes, it's one of those things where it very much becomes a matter of faith and belief, Marsalisites versus Sudhalterians, since there's no such thing as an empirical measurement of "swing." In the end, you can dress it up in all the socio-musicology you want, but it's still just a matter of subjective taste.

 

[Paisley]

Live broadcasts were as important -- if not more important -- than records in building a band's reputation, and it's well worth seeking out surviving examples of those broadcasts before reaching a judgement on any particular orchestra's style. What was heard on the air was often much much looser than anything that could be squeezed onto one side of a 78.

Someone--maybe one of my teachers--told me that Count Basie used to have dancers in the studio when his band was recording. Some musicians have told me that the dancers inspire them; one bandleader told me they'd played at the Mercury one night just because "people dance their butts off" there.

There are things I do on the dance floor that I can't recreate at home or in a class. It would seem that the same sort of interaction (from dancers or an enthusiastic audience) affects musicians, too, so that their live performances might have more inspiration than their studio performances.

 

[vitanola]

Someone--maybe one of my teachers--told me that Count Basie used to have dancers in the studio when his band was recording. Some musicians have told me that the dancers inspire them; one bandleader told me they'd played at the Mercury one night just because "people dance their butts off" there.

There are things I do on the dance floor that I can't recreate at home or in a class. It would seem that the same sort of interaction (from dancers or an enthusiastic audience) affects musicians, too, so that their live performances might have more inspiration than their studio performances.

Victor advertising claimed that the Castles, Vernon and Irene, danced in the studio when the Victor Military Band was recording dance records back in the 'teens. Nonetheless the records did not exactly "Swing", at least in the modern sense.

 

[HadleyH]

Can't vote.

Isham Jones not there.

Swing, Boogie-Boggie stuff? not my thing....( kind of Dance Band rather than Big Band gal myself [huh] )

but....


all of the bands in the survey- yes- but only from the late 20s to the mid 30s.

 

[vitanola]

I fully agree, but I'd like to mention the French/Belgian Accordeon virtuosi, even if most of 'em were Roma, Italian, Spanish. Anyway, the French really made it (Jass) their own from the very start. The first Dutch "Jazz" record: "Naar de Bollen", by Louis Davids ( It's a beauty, incredibly funny lyrics), from 1932 (!) had to be recorded in London, with an English backing band .

Belgian accordeon virtuoso?

Like the fellow in this "Jazz" band?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrsHSOynnIc

Only joking. I actually very much enjoy accordeon and button box music.

 

[Fletch]

Can't vote.

Isham Jones not there.

I feel just the same. But there are reasons he's not there - complex reasons. I thought of a few.

One I didn't mention is that Jones was not a likeable guy. He cared only for music - people just enervated him. He was lucky to have had his success early, so when he couldn't sell his music, he would just flip everybody off and leave the biz.

 

[Mysterious Mose]

Belgian accordeon virtuoso?

Like the fellow in this "Jazz" band?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrsHSOynnIc

Only joking. I actually very much enjoy accordeon and button box music.

Close! They actually have/had "Danceorgans" like this one, in bars in Belgium.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qe0Dv9x2vo

I meant Gus Deloof and Gus Viseur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTJ66Fa8G9k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks1mRvFt8Hs&feature=related

And from Paris, this is Jo Privat, who's club "The Balajo"(At Joe's Ball), still has Musette/Swing bands playing and dancing, 30's style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRLvLcYKHyQ
The guitarist is one of the Ferré brothers.

A lotta links, but you might want to check 'm out. Good stuff!

 

[Chas]

Originally Posted by vitanola
Never a white leader of Ellington's stature? What about Whiteman?

Very influential indeed, in the 1920's, at a time when Ellington was leading a very fine novelty jazz band, playing "Jungle Music". Whiteman, however, floated along on the currents of popular music after 1930, never affecting it an any lasting way therafter, whilst Ellington hit his stride in the mid 1930's, becoming the most influential musician of his generation.

That said, I find that Ellington's "Better" stuff leaves me cold. I prefer "Ring Dem Bells", "Diga Diga Doo" "East St Louis Toodle-Oo" and the "Creole Love Call" to "Do Nothing 'til You Hear From Me", "Sophisticated Lady" or "Take the A Train". It is this Ellingtonia that was so influential in jazz circles in the 1940's. Unfortunately, I do not care for this music. A blind spot of mine, perhaps.

When I began collecting, all of the "experts" maintained that the "White" jazz and dance music was not worth collecting at all. So many reams of paper have been wasted in facile explanations of Armstrong's absolute superiority to Beiderbeck, or that of Henderson to Bill Challis.

Try listening, again, to those amusing novelties made by "Blind Willie Dunn & His Gin-Bottle Four" and tell me what is black or white about the music. It's just good!

Of course there are some racial differences in music, they are just not, in my view, all important.

Well, this is illuminating. You consider Paul Whiteman the equal of Duke Ellington. I've never heard that argument made before. I think it's utterly ridiculous, but at least I know where you're coming from. The work that Ellington did with the Cotton Club orchestra was instrumental in the evolution of jazz composition, and you refer to it as a "novelty orchestra".

"Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four" was a recording group formed by Eddie Lang. He was backed by King Oliver on those sessions. It was a mixed band that recorded a few sides, and never to my knowledge preformed publicly. Not sure what your point is, here.

It reminds me of that climactic scene in "King Of Jazz" where the "Melting Pot Of American Music" is dramatized with it's various influences jumping into the pot. Everybody, of course, except black people.

Everybody, of course, except black people.

 

[vitanola]

Well, this is illuminating. You consider Paul Whiteman the equal of Duke Ellington. I've never heard that argument made before. I think it's utterly ridiculous, but at least I know where you're coming from. The work that Ellington did with the Cotton Club orchestra was instrumental in the evolution of jazz composition, and you refer to it as a "novelty orchestra".

"Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four" was a recording group formed by Eddie Lang. He was backed by King Oliver on those sessions. It was a mixed band that recorded a few sides, and never to my knowledge preformed publicly. Not sure what your point is, here.

It reminds me of that climactic scene in "King Of Jazz" where the "Melting Pot Of American Music" is dramatized with it's various influences jumping into the pot. Everybody, of course, except black people.

Everybody, of course, except black people.

"Everybody, of course, except black people."

The utter silliness of that production number aside, you have, I see, missed someting. The "Melting Pot of Music" that Whiteman was pictured to be stirring was the drum on which the "African" (actually a blacked-up Ken shawn, as I recall) danced at the start of the number.

I consider Whiteman's INFLUENCE in the twenties to be at least equal to that of Ellington's in the forties. Of course, Ellington was by far the more talented and original of the two; there is no question of this. Whiteman's contributions to American music were to some extent ephemeral, Ellington's have proven not to be so.

The deification of Whiteman and Nichols in the late 1920's as originators of jazz was ridiculous. So is the oft-promoted belief that Jazz had exclusively African roots. The music that we know and love would not exist were it not for the immense pool of talented musicians of color who were instrumental in its genesis and development, but neither would it have developed in any land other than the polyglot America of the early Twentieth Century.

I've noticed the racial approach to jazz is strongest amongst those who are least familiar with the small-group recordings dating from the music's genesis, when the cross pollination of styles was most obvious, and when recordings were less commercially managed. Small wonder that the best small group recordings were made by the little Poverty Row record labels, where the A & R controls were least effective.

I gather that you are not familiar with the "Blind Willie Dunn" sides. Had they been well known to you I suspect that you would have gotten my point (although you may well have reasonably disputed it) which had to do with the interplay of the TWO excellent guitarists on these sides, Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson. It is apparent that each has something and important to offer, and each respects the other's work, which is, I think the REAL basis of jazz in America. The great musicians respected each other across the color line which divided the America of the day, even though crass commercial considerations and the endemic racism of the time prevented them form openly working together.

Oh, and by the way, Tommy Dorsey (a great admirer of King Oliver) is believed to have subbed for Oliver on a couple of the Willie Dunn sides, doing a pretty good Oliver imitation, for at the late date of the recording session the deterioration of Oliver's teeth was so advanced that he was seriously limited in his range. By late '28 Oliver was no longer known to play above the staff, and on some of the Dunn sides the cornetist hits a high b flat. Rust lists Oliver as the session musician, as does the master card, but both Tommy Dorsey and Lonnie Johnson later asserted that Dorsey took over at least on "Jet Black Blues"