young people & hats

[Pompidou]

It most certainly is a very American struggle. What ideas are open for the next generation to remake, and what is worth keeping? How do we tread that fine line? However, those that think they should be able to start totally over are the most short sighted of all, and I'd contend slightly arrogant. Do people really think they are so much smarter than anyone that has ever come before them that they are smart enough to wholly remake their world without any traditions and social customs observed or held over from those dreaded "old days"? That, I'd contend, is the road to anarchy. Not only that but it cuts off new generations from the good things of the past as well as the bad.

Definitely - there are actually two poles of arrogance: those, like you mention, who think they can reinvent the wheel, abandoning all that came before, and on the other end of the spectrum, those who think that their own/the past generation is so flawless that the need for innovation died with their grandparents. If the former is anarchy, the latter is stagnation, and don't bother taking sides, for both will destroy a culture equally. Fortunately, there's a natural, perpetual cycle at work. Anarchic people seek to destroy the past. Stagnant people seek to destroy the future. They battle it out, and a middle ground is reached by the normal people who realized that the way things are and the way things were aren't all bad, but that there is always room for improvement. We need both groups of arrogant people if we're going to survive.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

Agreed, Pompidou.

 

[The Good]

Generally, I like seeing teenagers and young adults wearing fedoras or brimmed hats as a whole (cowboy, outback, bowler, etc). I'm a part of this demographic, and I wear a hat for a few reasons. Two that I can think of right now are that I want some sun-protection as well as warmth that could be offered through a fur felt hat. Second, is that I have found that fur felt hats in general just appeal to me the most out of all the headwear in existence. I keep telling myself that I've got to go for a nice flat cap or newsboy as well, someday, though. Function, and style, basically.

 

[scottyrocks]

What continues to puzzle me is how people tend to forget what has worked and not worked in the past, and how often similar mistakes are made throughout the course of history, both by people who dont realize it, and worse, those who deny that theyre doing it while doing it, which is probably the more arrogant, among other things, of the two.

 

[DAJE]

To me, good manners are about accepting that people have different values and habits to yourself, and managing to get along with them anyway. People are offended by someone wearing a hat in a restaurant? How does someone else's headgear have any effect on your life?

To me, people who want to dictate what other people are allowed to wear and when they're allowed to wear it are far more offensively rude than anyone's choice of headgear. Good manners are about not being a (censored), not a set of arbitrary rules.

To get back to the original question, I dislike the kind of polyester stingy-brim hats that are fashionable at the moment, but I think they're a great improvement on baseball caps. If "young people" are now wearing felt hats, even ultra-cheap ones, that's a further improvement. I'd love to see people (and not just young ones) wearing more stylish clothes than most of them do, but I won't hold my breath.

However, I really dislike the idea that there is an acceptable "uniform" of clothing choices and that any deviation from that is a bad thing. The reason why people abandoned the styles of previous decades in the 1960s is that people were sick of having others dictate what they could or couldn't wear. People wanted freedom, basically. That (unfortunately) led to the abandonment of a lot of very good style in favour of a lot of terrible style, but it was definitely a good thing in terms of allowing people to develop their individual styles.

As it turned out, a lot of people have no style of their own, but those of us that do can now wear anything we like. Including, if we are so inclined, the styles of yesteryear.

Now, if someone wants to wear the styles (and follow the "rules") of 1936, that's great - I love seeing it, and I really admire the people who do it. But if people start expecting others to follow the rules of 1936... why? What business is it of yours what other people wear and when and where they wear it?

There are plenty of fashion choices that I find appalling, but I don't expect anyone else to follow my set of rules. Someone wears a hat in a restaurant? So what? How is that an insult, especially if the wearer has no idea that such a "rule" even exists? Someone keeps their hat on when indoors, or when meeting a new person? Hey, as long as it's a nice hat, I prefer to see it worn. And there's always the possibility that the hat is covering bad hair, a lack of hair, a scalp condition, forehead scars, or something else that the wearer would prefer not to inflict on the general public.

The price I pay for getting to wear whatever I want is that everyone else gets to wear whatever they want. That's a price I'm prepared to pay, even if the choices of others sometimes make me wish I could unsee what I just saw.

 

[Neophyte]

This thread has become quite fascinating !

 

[B.J. Hedberg]

fftopic:
Spoke to my brother in Seattle the other day and he told me he won’t wear a fedora anymore because all the young kids he sees are doing it because they think it’s cool (and he’s not that old himself). When I suggested that ugly stingy brim’s were not fedoras, he told me that wide brim fedoras are the new “in thing” out there.

So if any of you are out in Seattle is it true, have the young punks finally become respectable and moved on to the real hats?

:focus:
As to proper hat etiquette, if they were taught good manners, they will show good judgment with when and where to wear their hats, regardless of if they know all the rules or what type of hat they have. If they were not taught good manners, well…hopefully the hat is good looking because folks will be seeing more of it than they may want to.

 

[Neophyte]

As to proper hat etiquette, if they were taught good manners, they will show good judgment with when and where to wear their hats, regardless of if they know all the rules or what type of hat they have.

I'm not so sure. Neither of my parents know anything about hats (they laugh when they hear how much a pure beaver hat costs, not even considering all the time and labor involved lol), and as such I wouldn't have known what to do at all regarding my hats. I don't understand how you can conjecture that having good manners allows you to extrapolate the correct actions to perform when faced with an entirely new circumstance.

For example, part of the reason I don't wear a hat indoors is because the brim gets in the way sometimes (an extreme case being that I hurt my brother's eye turning around in a doorway while he was right behind me; the brim swept right across his eye. He was alright, but it hurt for several hours lol). The biggest reason I don't wear hats in restaurants is because there's usually no place to keep them safe. As I said, my mannerisms mostly arrive from a utilitarian perspective. Hats are mostly tools to me, although I can appreciate the luxury. Most of my "good manners" involving hats are purely coincidental.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

People are offended by someone wearing a hat in a restaurant? How does someone else's headgear have any effect on your life?

To me, people who want to dictate what other people are allowed to wear and when they're allowed to wear it are far more offensively rude than anyone's choice of headgear. Good manners are about not being a (censored), not a set of arbitrary rules.

Ah, but there is another way to look at it.

You see, when people flaunt societal norms or rules of etiquette they are not necessarily always saying "Hey, I am an individual." They are often (but not always, naturally) saying, "Screw YOU, I refuse to give you respect and I'll do whatever I want. YOUR rules are stupid and so are you for following them." It is perceived as arrogance, disrespect of your neighbors, and a certain amount of needless petulance.

This is why people are "offended" when others refuse to follow rules of etiquette. Those that ARE following the rules of etiquette feel as if those that aren't are disrespecting them and everyone around them by flaunting simple niceties.

Remember, etiquette isn't meant as a way to keep people down. Etiquette is meant as a means to make society a genteel, civilized, and respectful place. When someone observes etiquette they are in essence saying, "I respect other people and don't wish to unduly upset people by my boorish behavior."

Those that purposefully flaunt etiquette are usually loud-mouths that think more of themselves than they do others.

This is the other side of the question.

Now, as an American I have quite a lot of love for the freedom to do as one wishes. However, freedom is NOT license. Liberty can only exist in a land of citizens that respect each other. The founders were very, very interested in public virtue for this very reason.

Anyway, this is the flip side of your thoughts, DAJE.

Petulance is not a lubricant for society.

UPDATE to make clear that this message was just laying out the other side of the matter. I am not saying this is the only way to view things.

 

[B.J. Hedberg]

My friend’s young children were taught to remove their ball caps when speaking with an adult and in certain venues, and they’ve never worn anything but. I know in my family it was the same way, and I’m not that old. So if kids were taught how to wear their ball caps correctly, they’ll do fine with wide brims, which should be handled the same way – or they’ll learn the hard way by putting out somebody’s eye. Having grown up without the luxury of watching Magnum PI, they probably won’t pick up on the little things like removing ones cap in a hotel elevator, but it’s the big things that count.

Of course if that fails, once they’re out with their girl and she sees some other hat-wearing gentleman remove his cap, she’ll get her chap trained in pretty fast. Seen that happen just recently myself at a Perkins of all places. Of course, when he’s not with the lady, I’m sure it’s back to business as usual. Temporary good manners.

 

[Neophyte]

Ah! Now I get what you mean .

 

[Chuck Bobuck]

I think they look fine. As far as etiquette goes, I would only be bothered if it impeded my view at the movies or a performance in my kids school auditorium.

 

[DAJE]

Mobile Vulgus - I understand what you're saying, but it's only valid if a person knows the "rules". I agree that if someone is breaking the "rules" deliberately and for no good reason, then yes, that person is behaving badly.

However, I doubt that there are many people outside of FL members and similar who are aware that there are "rules" for hat-wear. I also think that there's no reason to expect the "rules" of hat-wear from 50+ years ago to apply to 2010. Society is different, and I don't think that "golden era" society was always better than modern society.

In the olden days, public places like restaurants usually had hat-racks, and some had hat-check people. Such things are very rare nowadays. There's really nowhere to safely put your hat in many public places. Now, in a cinema, it should be obvious even to an idiot that taking off your hat is the right thing to do. But at a table, while eating? Why should it be self-evident that you're supposed to go bare-headed?

In some places, loudly burping at the table is considered a compliment to the host. There's no reason why that's "good" in one context and "bad" in another, it's just whatever "rule" evolved in whatever particular place. Etiquette is different in different cultures.

It also evolves. If our society ("the west", for want of a better term) goes through another period where hat-wearing becomes a cultural norm for the majority of people, then a new hat etiquette will evolve alongside the new style. It might (or might not) be much the same as hat etiquette from the golden era. But until hat-wearing is so common that everybody ought to know the "rules", then there's no good reason to expect that everyone who owns a hat will just magically know when he/she should or shouldn't wear it.

So assuming that someone wearing a hat in the "wrong" circumstances is doing it deliberately as an insult to those of us who think we know the "rules" is wrong. There are, in the context of "western culture" in the year 2010, no rules for hat-wear, because hat-wear is very uncommon. Society's hat-wearing rules died out back when hat-wearing died out. Modern society doesn't need hat rules because nobody wears hats.

Obviously everybody here does wear hats, but we're such a tiny minority of the population - even counting the polyester-stingy wearers - that society has no need to evolve a set of "hat rules" to cater for us. Apart from the truly self-evident stuff like "not in the cinema" there are no cultural rules. So a person wearing a hat in the "wrong" context is only doing so according to your own personal set of rules, not the rules of society.

 

[scottyrocks]

fftopic:
Spoke to my brother in Seattle the other day and he told me he won’t wear a fedora anymore because all the young kids he sees are doing it because they think it’s cool (and he’s not that old himself). When I suggested that ugly stingy brim’s were not fedoras, he told me that wide brim fedoras are the new “in thing” out there.

So if any of you are out in Seattle is it true, have the young punks finally become respectable and moved on to the real hats?

How long has your brother been wearing fedoras? Because your example illustrates the difference between style and fashion. If the 'young punks' who are wearing fedoras today are not wearing them a year, or some part thereof, from now, the it was a fashion for them. But the men here, who have worn them for years, and/or will continue to do so despite what others around us are wearing, are doing it because it is our style. If its our style, we wear it primarily for ourselves. If its a fashion, we wear primarily it for others.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

Mobile Vulgus - I understand what you're saying, but it's only valid if a person knows the "rules". I agree that if someone is breaking the "rules" deliberately and for no good reason, then yes, that person is behaving badly.

All true enough (but to be clear, I wasn't just talking about hats. I was talking about etiquette and public comportment in general as I thought you were). I think that old saw about "burping" being a compliment "in some countries" is somewhat over blown, but point taken.

Still, the whole thing about etiquette and societal norms is that it is incumbent upon the individual to learn the "rules" of society on his own. To just stand there and claim ignorance does not suffice to excuse onesself for being gauche.

As to hats specifically, just a little reading of our western literature should inform anyone that at least there are some sort of rules of comportment with hats. But, yes it is also (at this late date) a failure of society and our woeful lack of formality that has caused the "rules" for hats to be lost. In fact, an entire raft of etiquette rules have been lost and our society is coarser for it. People are becoming willful ass h*les that think they have more "rights" than the next guy in line. Selfish ignoramuses.

So, who can fully blame a young person for not knowing hat etiquette? I sure can't.

 

[JJR512]

Here is my take on hat etiquette.

Suppose you take a man and a woman who have absolutely zero knowledge about hat etiquette. Dress the woman in a nice dress, dress the man in a nice suit, and put a nice fedora on his head. Now sit them down and have them share a meal together. Keep in mind that neither one knows the slightest thing about hat etiquette. Is it going to occur to the man to take his hat off? Why should it? If it doesn't occur to him to take it off, is it going to occur to the woman to be offended? Why should it?

In practical terms, what difference does it make if a person wears a hat while eating? Don't just say it's wrong because that's what you were taught. Why is it wrong?

The same questions could be asked about any bit of hat etiquette. Take the national anthem for another example. How does it show respect to remove the hat while it's playing? Again, "because that's what I was taught" is not an applicable answer. It does not answer the question. Can you produce scientific medical research that proves a human body cares more about something when there is no hat atop that body's head?

When it comes down to it, there is no real or practical need for hat etiquette. The only real answer to any of these questions actually is "because that's what I was taught". It doesn't really answer the questions, but it's the only possible answer.

This is all just something to think about. Personally, I try to abide by hat etiquette, because for me, it's actually a way of rebelling. Since relatively few people care about, or know of, these old rules, actually following them feels like "going against the grain" to me.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Yes, I would say that with time the rules have kind of evolved. I find it rude that people wear their hats in peoples' homes. Always have. I especially despise it in my own home, but it's the norm, and nobody even feels as though their being rude in doing it.

Myself, I keep my hat on if I'm eating in a restaurant. I consider it a public place such as a store, but then again, I never go anywhere fancier than a Golden Arches. If it were a nicer place, I'd remove my hat.

Places such as Church, or during the National Anthem, or where the hat will get in the way, such as the movies, they should all be no-brainers. This isn't etiquette, it's just common sense. Practicality has eliminated the ability to be courteous with your hat in most places these days anyway. I put a hat rack in my place and always tell everyone "hey, feel free to hang your coat and hat up" but I get "nah, I'm fine." but do not dare leave your coat on in my house unless you're cold. That's my pet peeve!

 

[Pompidou]

Places such as Church, or during the National Anthem, or where the hat will get in the way, such as the movies, they should all be no-brainers. This isn't etiquette, it's just common sense. Practicality has eliminated the ability to be courteous with your hat in most places these days anyway. I put a hat rack in my place and always tell everyone "hey, feel free to hang your coat and hat up" but I get "nah, I'm fine." but do not dare leave your coat on in my house unless you're cold. That's my pet peeve!

Common sense is not touching a hot stove. Taking your hat off in some places but not others, during some events but not others - that's just a list of completely arbitrary rules people came up with centuries ago for various reasons, some practical at the time and some purely ceremonial, that didn't have to make sense then, but certainly don't have to make sense when hat rules died with hat use. That's all etiquette is - a list of arbitrary rules from bygone eras with needs we no longer have, that we keep, not because they really matter in some way, but because people decided these random X gestures at Y times are what people in Z culture should do. It even varies by culture, totally throwing a wrench in the idea that etiquette serves any higher practical purpose than letting your company know that they're not alone.

Such rituals taken alone, would be totally silly if only one person did them. When everyone does them, that's different. How many people do them today? Out of how many people? It's not totally silly yet, but it's approaching silliness fast. I would say the only situations where taking a hat off is more than just a gesture would be something perhaps like a crowded theater if you're actually blocking someone's view. The national anthem - beyond any idea of common sense - technically has various hat rules based on who you are and what hat you're wearing. I believe active servicemen are supposed to leave the hat on but salute, for example. It's no longer common sense when you can look around the crowd at a function and see different people doing totally opposite things and both being right.

 

[fmw]

Practicality has eliminated the ability to be courteous with your hat in most places these days anyway.

No it hasn't. Not even a little. What has changed is the attitudes.

 

[fmw]

Common sense is not touching a hot stove. Taking your hat off in some places but not others, during some events but not others - that's just a list of completely arbitrary rules people came up with centuries ago for various reasons, some practical at the time and some purely ceremonial, that didn't have to make sense then, but certainly don't have to make sense when hat rules died with hat use. That's all etiquette is - a list of arbitrary rules from bygone eras with needs we no longer have, that we keep, not because they really matter in some way, but because people decided these random X gestures at Y times are what people in Z culture should do. It even varies by culture, totally throwing a wrench in the idea that etiquette serves any higher practical purpose than letting your company know that they're not alone.

Such rituals taken alone, would be totally silly if only one person did them. When everyone does them, that's different. How many people do them today? Out of how many people? It's not totally silly yet, but it's approaching silliness fast. I would say the only situations where taking a hat off is more than just a gesture would be something perhaps like a crowded theater if you're actually blocking someone's view. The national anthem - beyond any idea of common sense - technically has various hat rules based on who you are and what hat you're wearing. I believe active servicemen are supposed to leave the hat on but salute, for example. It's no longer common sense when you can look around the crowd at a function and see different people doing totally opposite things and both being right.

No, etiquette is not rules. It is custom and behavior. If you want to ingore the custom as some silly thing from the meaningless past, you can do that. Most people your age do. There are no etiquette police.