Why Winston had no cash

[cookie]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...nston-churchill-was-so-bad-with-money/419094/

 

[Stearmen]

A great peace, though, I could have gone peacefully to my grave never knowing Churchill had a propensity for wearing pink under garments!

 

[filfoster]

This is fun. From superficial reading, was this profligate overspending typical of his class?
I've read that many titled aristocrats were chronically in debt, living beyond their means.
Why did tradespeople continue to supply their needs and go unpaid?

 

[Harp]

I've read that many titled aristocrats were chronically in debt, living beyond their means.
Why did tradespeople continue to supply their needs and go unpaid?

(Jefferson died penniless and his tradesmen bills were inherited by his daughter.) Churchill was a profligate, but he had style.

 

[filfoster]

Well, no doubt, and English aristocrats had no monopoly on being spendthrifts. It's just a source of wonder that merchants and professionals continued to extend credit, evidently for bills years in arrears.
As much as merchants wanted to avoid bad PR, wouldn't that also work the other way?

 

[cookie]

I love the total of the shirt bill. The bill must have sat in a box.

 

[Edward]

Well, no doubt, and English aristocrats had no monopoly on being spendthrifts. It's just a source of wonder that merchants and professionals continued to extend credit, evidently for bills years in arrears.
As much as merchants wanted to avoid bad PR, wouldn't that also work the other way?

I think a lot of them never adjusted to the new world, post WW1 where class might have still been everything (class in England is as race in the US), but they no longer had the money (inheritance tax /death duties, compounded by often several losses within individual families during the Great War and shortly thereafter, hammered the upper classes hard). Plenty of recorded instances of denial and pride meaning people died because they wouldn't admit they couldn't afford the doctor until too late, their kids being very poorly educated because they could no longer affors the governness but wouldn't have them at school with the common children, and so on.

As to why they were allowed to run up bills like that, I can only imagine the tradespeople thought their estates would be good for it. The former "Queen Mother" here in the UK was two million pounds sterling in debt when she died; for royals at least this still seems to be an option, though I doubt many others could get away with it now. Her estate, of course, settled it pretty quickly. I should imagine there's also a large element of class deference to it all as well, though again outside of royalty I don't imagine it would be just quite as influential now as fifty years ago (assuming you're not dealing with the social-climbing element of the middle class who are often unreasonably impressed with that sort of thing).

 

[MisterCairo]

Some rich people are just as bad with money as large swaths of the poor and middle class are.

Wow.

Next we'll be reading about film, music and business people making millions, then losing it all and going bankrupt!

Craziness, I know...

 

[filfoster]

I get that. I used to settle estates for my current employer and I understand that logic. Still, that's a mental viewpoint, knowing 24/7, that you're stiffing honest (well, let's presume) tradespeople is very difficult.

 

[Stanley Doble]

So he took goods from shopkeepers and never gave anything in return, and took money from political supporters and never gave them anything in return....

Not sure which is more reprehensible, taking bribes in return for services rendered or taking bribes and giving nothing in return. I am also surprised such wealthy men could be taken in as easily as tradesmen.

 

[filfoster]

Well, he was Churchill. I have to admit I'm an admirer, if not of all his qualities.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Great article. Thanks. Certainly a different insight into the day-to-day life of a giant among men. Of course runaway egotism has a lot to do with it. The world was forced to conform to him, not the other way around. I sometimes wonder if I would be able to stand the company of some of the great men that I admire from a distance.

 

[Fastuni]

According to contemporary German assesments there was political pay-off for Churchill's private bail-out:
The Moravian Jewish banker Strakosch paid Churchill's bills in 1938, which supposedly had a part in easing the way
for former Czech PM Benes in gaining considerable political clout in his British emigration.

 

[RapidReaper]

One of the better stories about Churchill is how Roosevelt handed him his arse with the Atlantic Charter, effectively ending the "british empire" once WW2 was in the books. Roosevelt wasn't about to risk the of a single American soldier for said empire, which of course Churchill found a bitter, and expensive, pill to swallow. It goes without saying Churchill was more than content with that deal afterwards.

 

[Capesofwrath]

One of the better stories about Churchill is how Roosevelt handed him his arse with the Atlantic Charter, effectively ending the "british empire" once WW2 was in the books. Roosevelt wasn't about to risk the of a single American soldier for said empire, which of course Churchill found a bitter, and expensive, pill to swallow. It goes without saying Churchill was more than content with that deal afterwards.

One of the US war aims was the end of the British Empire. More for trade reasons as any other in reality. But Churchill did not accept that the terms of the Atlantic Charter were relevant to the British Empire. Believing they applied to German occupied countries only. In fact decolonisation would not have started had the Tories won the 1945 election, and Churchill was appalled when Labour gave India independence and with its breaking up. He was an old fashioned imperialist to the end, and further decolonisation was not completed until Churchill was forced against his will to retire on health grounds. It then gathered pace under governments of both colours.

Incidentally the charter was thought in the UK to be a prelude to America entering the war and there was disappointment when they didn’t. In fact it is a moot point whether the US would have ever entered the war had the Japanese not forced its hand. Even when the US declared war on Japan they did not declare war on Germany, and Germany declared war on the US a couple of days later in solidarity with its Japanese ally.

 

[RapidReaper]

One of the US war aims was the end of the British Empire. More for trade reasons as any other in reality. But Churchill did not accept that the terms of the Atlantic Charter were relevant to the British Empire. Believing they applied to German occupied countries only. In fact decolonisation would not have started had the Tories won the 1945 election, and Churchill was appalled when Labour gave India independence and with its breaking up. He was an old fashioned imperialist to the end, and further decolonisation was not completed until Churchill was forced against his will to retire on health grounds. It then gathered pace under governments of both colours.

Incidentally the charter was thought in the UK to be a prelude to America entering the war and there was disappointment when they didn’t. In fact it is a moot point whether the US would have ever entered the war had the Japanese not forced its hand. Even when the US declared war on Japan they did not declare war on Germany, and Germany declared war on the US a couple of days later in solidarity with its Japanese ally.

Exactly.

 

[Edward]

I don't believe it was so much solidarity as Hitler hoping Japan would, in turn, open upa second Russian front, to his advantage.

 

[Capesofwrath]

Actually Hitler set out his route to world domination in his writings. But no one really took them seriously at the time. First invade and control western Europe. Ideally neutralise Britain so it was out of the war or better still was an ally - because he admired the British Empire and its control over what he saw as inferior races. Then turn to eastern Europe and create ‘living space' for Germany’s growing population and the ethnic Germans already living in those countries. Then destroy Russia and turn it into a slave province serving Germany.

Then he intended to attack and occupy the US. With Germany holding Eurasia and controlling Britain which controlled a large part of the world he would have stood a good chance too. Even leaving Japan out of the equation. It was all thought to be the ravings of a madman by most at the time but he did try to stick to the plan. But Britain disappointed him by not coming to a peace agreement, and Field Marshall Winter did for him in Russia. Helped by Hitler having to start Operation Barbarossa a month late when he had to divert to Greece to help out Mussolini when his army got bogged down there. That month’s delay may have saved Russia because Hitler expected to reach Moscow before winter and the army was not equipped for a Russian winter. But if the invasion had started on time it could have been different.

 

[filfoster]

I recommend to y'all this book
http://www.amazon.com/American-Warlords-Roosevelts-Command-America/dp/0451414578
which discusses in detail the thinking of Roosevelt and the senior military leaders about helping Britain and its empire. The desire to engage Germany is also well documented here.
I think this book is the best so far to describe exactly who thought what and said what and when to who in the American leadership. The rivalries and characters of these folks are also described and ring true.

 

[Stearmen]

Actually, early on, Hitler wanted to be allies with the U.S. also! He spoke of admiration of our conquering the indigence people, and becoming a great power. It wasn't until 1941, when we were in direct combat with his Uboats, and Lend Lease, that his racial animosity reared it's ugly head, and he turned against the U.S.