Why did brims get stingy?

[Brad Bowers]

Ok, we had a great thread about the death of style as fedoras lost favor with the public, but let's take the topic just a little farther. The question of the night is: What drove the styles of hat in the '50s and '60s towards smaller brims and shorter crowns?

Was it a trendsetter like Sinatra, or was it part of a more general fashion trend? What was the psychology behind this trend? Was it a trend towards more casual attire, and larger brims were considered more formal, as Andykev suggests? Wild Root made an interesting comment that he wouldn't have worn the hats from the '60s, based on their style. So, did the hatmakers "style" themselves out of business?

Brad Bowers

 

[Art Fawcett]

"So, did the hatmakers "style" themselves out of business?"

I think there is alot of truth to this question Brad. It sounds logical that with hat sales slipping they would try a different approach ala Couture & the ever changing fashions just to keep the stylist in business, but it obviously didn't work!! Sinatra wore stingy brims because he was a physically small man and the others tended to overwhelm his face. Hmmm I've never researched this much as I lose interest after the 50s.
Any other scholars out there care to jump in?

 

[STHill]

That's funny, I've recently been wondering the same thing. My guess is the "narrower brim, less formal" theory. Although, the way fashion works, it could be something more bizarre, like designers saw that hats were gradully becoming unpopular, so they began designing hats that were less "hatlike."

 

[Andykev]

I think

It is just the marketing trick to try something different, the latest fashion, what is in and what is not. Are you cool this season or not?

Just like women's hem lines, men's lapels, and the hundreds of fashion changes over the years, who can pinpoint the exact reason for anything. Hat sales plummented, and the marketing geninus's were trying anything to sell the product. Didn't the stingy brim coincide with the narrow ties and lapels of the 50's -60's?

I don't dislike the stingy brim.it just looks dumb on me. I love the look of the 30-40's and it's because I have the muscular wide shoulders and oval face. Can't do stingy. Looks dumb on me!

I guess a 10 gallon western would too for that matter.

 

[havershaw]

I'm curious, though - while brims in the 60s were certainly stingy, all of my 30s and 40s catalogs show stingy brimmed hats as well as what we are accustomed to seeing from those eras (and those were always listed as "our most popular" or "America's Most Popular," etc.). In fact, if there's anything I've really been surprised at in going through the fairly decent collection of vintage catalogs lately, it's that there are many things in the 30s and 40s that I have always attributed to other eras. I have seen more than my share of shirts in the 1942 catalog which I would have sworn to you were 50s shirts (slightly atomic-looking patterns). And especially when it comes to hats. in my '31-'32 MW catalog, the smallest brim there is 2 1/2", but most are 2 3/8" and 2 5/8". There are also virtually no dents to be seen in the majority of the hats pictured (and what dents there are seem to be very shallow). By the 1937-38 catalog, "medium" brim (as they call it) was 2 1/8" and a few 2 1/4" brims. 2 3/8" is considered "wide brimmed" and they also sold several "narrow brim" hats whose brims measure at 2" (the "playboy" style being recommended for "exceptionally stylish younger men"). Lots and lots more bound brims in the later 30s as well, though the pain-edged was listed as a top seller. The dents in the crowns are starting to look a lot more like what we are used to. In my 1940s catalogs, the brims are getting even narrower (although wide brims are still more prevalent), and the dents in the crowns are getting deeper and deeper. More bound-edged brims than plain available (though the one plain-edged hat is still listed as "Our Most Popular Hat Value").

Anyway, what I think I was going to address was that I doubt the hat companies "styled themselves out of business" or anything like that. I'm sure they did try to do something different or evolve or whatever by offering a lot more smaller-brimmed hats...but let's face it, the dollar is a very strong and persuasive speaker, and I'm sure wide brimmed hats were still available (that is to say, I can't imagine a hat company going into stingy brims with such a vengeance that they just decide to abandon their other styles). Whatever sold the most, year after year, would be what I would assume the hat companies would produce more of. Small-brimmed hats (and I consider 2" pretty small) were available (three different models) in '37-'38, and I would guess that over the years, the hat companies offered more and more stingier brimmed hats because that's what was selling, and the wider brimmed hats were, presumably, not selling as well. I'm sure they just started making more of what was already selling well, and then of course, took it farther by making the brims stingier and stingier. But had folks not bought them, I assume they would not have been produced in such high numbers.

By 1951 (the newest catalog I have), the hat page was down to having basically three styles, two medium brim and a stingy brim. (Interestingly, the hat that looks the most like an Indy hat to me is called "The Adventurer"!) They have varying qualities, but nowhere near the selection offered in the 40s or 30s.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Bump....

I was pondering the question of origon of "stingy brims" and when doing a search this thread came up. Interesting read. (IMO, the brim size by itself did not cause the sales of hats to plummet, although selecting a fashion look that did not flatter the "average" male contributed. )

Best, Eric -

 

[suitedcboy]

The early 60's had the narrowest lapels and skinniest ties that I can remember seeing in movies or photos from various periods. Was hat brim size just following the downsizing of worn fashion?

 

[Redfokker]

I'm starting to look at other aspects off the early sixties that mirror the stingy brim. Things like the shrinking of the huge fins on American automobiles, the lines of Women's clothing becoming shorter and slimer, and furniture and appliance styles. The jet age was in full swing...swept back wings, aerodynamics - the Space Race.

I dont know if I look good or bad in a stingy, I like them for the statement they make about the changes of the turbulent decade of the 1960s. I'm a history geek on a quest now!

This thread needs some stingy pictures...my "Rat Pack Hat" (my wife's term) Cavanaugh class! cost: $16.50 (a cheap skate Cav?)

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Redfokker; I am struck by seeing the images of hat catalogs thru the 20-40's showing many smaller brims. I also have seen posted images of pre- 1900's of smaller brims (<2.5"). Stingy brimmed hats have existed for as long as hat makers saw need for fashion/fit requirements. The tipping point......I do not know but would answer in public serendipity in the 60-70's culture. Perhaps today's mass marketed stingy brims will see the mirror image of brim popularity (small to a bit larger).

Musing about brim dimensions this afternoon. Fashion - I see it yet I do not always recongnize the innovation/trend as I live thru it.

Eric -

 

[GHT]

Sometimes it's like stating the obvious, but you can make such a faux pas if you don't see it.
Can anyone tell me if there is an obvious difference between a stingy brim and a trilby?

 

[Stanley Doble]

In the forties men's suits took on an exaggerated style with wide lapels, heavily padded shoulders, wide trousers, wide brimmed hats, and wide ties. This was the era of the Zoot suit but even regular men's suits took on some of this look.

There was a fashion reaction in the fifties to a more natural look with narrow lapels, narrow less padded shoulders, button down collars, narrow ties, straight legged trousers. The Brooks Brothers look if you will.

The lower crown hats with narrower brims went along with the Brooks Brothers look.

 

[Willybob]

Intersting topic. I've always thought it was a city vs country thing, a matter or practicality. Ive recently been watching Ken Burns series on the Rosevelts. Some great hat stills and news reel clips with hundreds of vintage lids. I guess we should ask why man started putting things on his heads in the first place. I doubt it was a fasion statement. I suspect that is is largly driven by the fairer sex. Was it not because we didn't like to get burned by that big bright thing in the sky. When we lived primarily in an agrarian society we wore hats and long sleeves for protection. The hats had wide brims. In the industrial age we moved to the big cities with their tall buildings blocking out the sun and maybe society did not see the need for as much hat except to keep warm in the winter. Is there a correlation between the change in brim width and the migration into the city? If this was a factor you would naturally see more narrow brims in the stores in New York and more wider brims in the merchantile in Wilcox Arizona. And since the heavily populated city shops sell more hats, they direct the market.

 

[Redfokker]

In the forties men's suits took on an exaggerated style with wide lapels, heavily padded shoulders, wide trousers, wide brimmed hats, and wide ties. This was the era of the Zoot suit but even regular men's suits took on some of this look.

There was a fashion reaction in the fifties to a more natural look with narrow lapels, narrow less padded shoulders, button down collars, narrow ties, straight legged trousers. The Brooks Brothers look if you will.

The lower crown hats with narrower brims went along with the Brooks Brothers look.

During the period of the Zoot Suits, there was also a national movement to conserve for the war. The Zoot Suit Riots of 1943 in Los Angeles is a great story about this style of the youth during WWII. PBS has a great American Experience episode about it. Google it, cool bit of fashion history.

 

[Blackthorn]

I have always believed that fedoras went out of style because of whiplash in car crashes (necessitating the invention of head rests, making brimmed hats a hassle), and the stingy brim would have been part of that.

 

[Hal]

Can anyone tell me if there is an obvious difference between a stingy brim and a trilby?

In the UK, until the 1980s or even the 1990s, American "fedora" = British-English "trilby" (like British "rubbish" = American "trash/garbage"); the two terms meant the same thing - this type of hat was always called a "trilby". Any difference of meaning has moved eastwards across the Atlantic. I should like to know how old is the distinction (based on brim width?) between "fedora" and "trilby" in American English.
The mystery to me is why Americans use metaphors like "stingy" or "skinny" instead of the direct words "narrow" or "thin".

 

[Brad Bowers]

I think the perception of two distinct styles only dates to the rise of the Internet and the cross-ocean discussions taking place on sites like the Fedora Lounge. I suspect it's a forced distinction to reconcile two different names in people's minds, and is perhaps driven more by Americans than Brits, though there could be a more equal culpability. I've long wondered why Americans have a collective amnesia or ignorance regarding the name Derby, as even on the Lounge they will use the British term Bowler, completely forgetting that for 150 years it's been called the Derby over here.

As for the "stingy brim," historicaly, its use in advertising goes back to at least 1905, though it is far more common in advertising from the 1950s onward. I chalk it up to America's linguistic idiosyncrasy for more colorful descriptive language.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[mayserwegener]

Riga, 1896

 

[emigran]

The early 60's had the narrowest lapels and skinniest ties that I can remember seeing in movies or photos from various periods. Was hat brim size just following the downsizing of worn fashion?

And also the shortest length men's trousers...

 

[Willybob]

Another "practicle" corrolation question. Do blokes wear wide brims in foggy London? Do we see more wide brims on the mid west plaines than in overcast Seattle?

 

[TheDane]

Another "practicle" corrolation question. Do blokes wear wide brims in foggy London? Do we see more wide brims on the mid west plaines than in overcast Seattle?

In Copenhagen very few hats have a brim. The vast majority have bills. I suspect, the same goes for London(?)