White RAF Roll Neck Sweaters

[STEVIEBOY1]

Hello to everyone as this is my first post.

I am also curious about the comparison Pick&Sons and contemporary e.g. Kempton/Niffi.
I have the Pick sweater around – perhaps of the last series – of 1990. So at least I am concluding from the number of the contract on the name tag. The year isn't given. And so I understand obsession Stevieboy1 and Paulgo 253.
It being interested, how big differences are between Pick from years 70. and from years 90.?
I am interesting whether somebody on the forum has jersey white H.K.LTD companies.? In the net I could see sweaters of this company produced for Royal Navy in years 70. In years 80. Jersey white did also Remploy.
Since I have also jersey white from Silvermans I did the small juxtaposition. It isn't fully satisfying, because sweaters are in different sizes. But they are almost new- sweaters aren't stretched. In them I rarely walk, since winters are more and more weak. He is usually enough for me polish military roll neck (crews of ship/crews of tanks). He is black, much lighter and thinner from royal navy jersey white, made from the 90/10 wool and acrylic. With cut more resembles submariner North Sea Clothing than authentic jersey white Royal Navy. If somebody wants, at one time I will write about this sweater and about newer roll Neck of the Polish Navy who is with the zip fastener and is similar to Das Boot sweater/elbe troyer.

WOOL WHITE JERSEY, Dimensions
Pick&Sons Size 2(40-42 Niffi) Niffi/Silvermans Size 52
Chest across front 50 cm/19,69 inch 65 cm/25,59 inch
Body lenght from back neck 74 cm/ 29,13 inch 84 cm/33,07 inch
Sleeve underarm 54 cm/ 21,26 inch 63 cm/24,80 inch
Height of the polo neck over 16 cm/ 6,3 inch over 15 cm/5,91 inch
Lenght of the ribbing sleeve over 12 cm/ 4,72 inch over 13 cm/5,12 inch
Lenght of the ribbing hole over 10,5 cm / 4,13 inch over 11,5 cm/4,52 inch
Libra 930 g / 2,05 lbs 800 g / 1,76 lbs
Remarks: Pick has the light colour from ecru Niffi, thicker stitch, a little bit fatter yarn.

One can see a big difference in the weight. Niffi is lighter. At least is about one third Pick bigger than the sweater. Pick in this size would have to weigh the over 1.2 kg (2,65 lbs). However Niffi in the Pick size would weigh the c 600 g (1,32 lbs).

Unfortunately you must forgive me my English. I am from this generation whom at school was had to teach Russian.

Good morning. I bought my Pick Submariner Roll Neck Jersey/sweater, as mentioned before, in the Mid 1990s from a surplus shop in Newcastle upon Tyne in the North East Of England, I am not sure when it was made, there is no date in the lable, but I should say perhaps in the 1970s or 1980s. The Quality and thickness of this Jersey is still very good after all these years. I do have one from Silvermans which I must have had for at least 10-15 years, interestingly, the label in it says woolly pully. Is is a good sweater too, but perhaps not quite as heavy as the one by Pick. I think modern knitting methods use slightly smaller needles so you don't get quite such a heavy garment. I do also have a number of the traditional wool heavy ribbed, V, Round and Roll Neck sweaters/woolly pullys whichhave the elbow and shoulder patches, these are mainly by Outdoor Knit Wear company, who use the labels too, Niffi/Kempton/woolly Pully and who make alot of knitwear for uniforms for the UK and abroad. I think they may also do Das Boot Sweater too. Their garments are very good indeed and there is another thread on this forum about that. In the General Attire and Accoutrement thread.

Whenever I am looking at sweaters, for me they have to be Pure 100% Wool, not acrylic or cotton.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

Good morning. I bought my Pick Submariner Roll Neck Jersey/sweater, as mentioned before, in the Mid 1990s from a surplus shop in Newcastle upon Tyne in the North East Of England, I am not sure when it was made, there is no date in the lable, but I should say perhaps in the 1970s or 1980s. The Quality and thickness of this Jersey is still very good after all these years. I do have one from Silvermans which I must have had for at least 10-15 years, interestingly, the label in it says woolly pully. Is is a good sweater too, but perhaps not quite as heavy as the one by Pick. I think modern knitting methods use slightly smaller needles so you don't get quite such a heavy garment. I do also have a number of the traditional wool heavy ribbed, V, Round and Roll Neck sweaters/woolly pullys whichhave the elbow and shoulder patches, these are mainly by Outdoor Knit Wear company, who use the labels too, Niffi/Kempton/woolly Pully and who make alot of knitwear for uniforms for the UK and abroad. I think they may also do Das Boot Sweater too. Their garments are very good indeed and there is another thread on this forum about that. In the General Attire and Accoutrement thread.

Whenever I am looking at sweaters, for me they have to be Pure 100% Wool, not acrylic or cotton.

Good afternoon. Entirely I agree. I compared, not in order to recognize worse something. If only to show, that product determined by us as royal navy submariner, or jersey white, is changing for years. And what buyers can expect. For me Niffi/Outdoor Knitwear/Kempton with the receipt or without the receipt from Silvermansa, is the same good, remarkable sweater.

Heavier, or lighter? The Silvermans shop is explaining in the ROYAL NAVY SUB SWEATER description: „ … These superb 100% wool sub sweaters are the same design as the original wartime and early RN issue sweaters, however the machinery to make the really heavy gauge knit is no longer available so the knit is slightly lighter.”

Beyond jersey white a few mums wolly pully, mainly from surpluses. First I bought in 1997 in London. These are the best sweaters at any time I had which. Into navy jersey blue people often hold me for the policeman, because Poland police changed uniforms a few years ago around blue on dark navy. And sweaters with reinforcements at first glance are looking alike. With difficulty. I walk, because they are warm, strong and pretty.

Your Pick White Jersey. If the number of the contract is being placed on the name tag of the sweater from the long character string, e.g. A/ 78/CLO/36286/DC65(3), it is a sweater should be from years 70. If the number is shorter, e.g. SL 22B/2226, these are already years 80 ….. In years 70. some MoD suppliers, e.g. TWK, have always printed the date of the production on the name tag. In the next decade it became a rule, and still in consecutive, the year of the production disappeared from meat pastes.

I have a few sweaters 90/10 or 80/20% in blends of wool with cotton or acrylic, or only cotton. I am using them into warmer days. In order to sweaters with buttons and zip fasteners. They are replacing light jackets.

I am a fan of English sweaters for years 80. In the long term they were these are only sweaters of Shetland wool. Only so it was possible in Poland to buy. In the childhood – years 60. – I wore sweaters, hats, scarves and socks of so-called highland wool - of Polish sheep from the Carpatian. It was warm.
This wool was so itching, that by her gansey whether wolly pully it is real velvet.

 

[Paulgo253]

There’s been some great posts about subs in the time it’s taken me to get my finger out and write this post – and sorry if this is a bit over long and indulgent! One thing I would say is that submariner jumpers has definitely become a bit of an obsession with me! I am now the proud owner of 6 issued original Royal Navy submarine jerseys (as they are referred to on the labels, rather than sweaters or jumpers). Four can probably be classed as vintage and these originally belonging to a retired Royal Navy Chief Weapon Engineering Artificer who joined the navy in 1954 and was on submarines for over 30 years. The other two are more modern version issued over the last 10 years or so.

This means that I can now compare the ‘real deal’ to the high street version of a submariner, both contemporary and vintage, using the example I bought from Outdoor Knitwear, something I’ve been dying to do since I got the submariner bug!

The first thing I noticed about all the issued jerseys, new and old, is that they are generally a bit whiter – more of an ivory than the cream / ecru that the high street versions tend to be (at least my Outdoor Knitwear sub). The next thing that struck me was that the wool yarn used and knit was a lot thicker. The OKN sweater is knit is very fine and narrow by comparison. The older subs definitely have a heavier heft, with more of a soft, almost fluffy lambswool feel – very different to the ‘manufactured’ feel of the OKW jumper.

Here's some shots of the modern issued sub on the right next to the OKW sub on the right hopefully shpowing the difference is yarn.

The other thing that struck me immediately was the shape of the neck funnel. It’s quite square on the originals, not tapered in at the top like my OKW sub. Generally, the join between the neck funnel and the body of the jersey on the issued subs is a lot straighter too and inline with the shoulders, with less curvature of the seam into the chest.

Here a shot of the modern issued sub on the left next to the Outdoor Knitwear sub on the right to give an indication of

the neck differences.


Pick Jerseys from the 70s

Both the Pick jerseys date to the mid 70’s. One is size 1 and in issued but unworn/new condition – which is really useful when comparing the original condition of the wool etc and how white it originally was against the worn examples. The other Pick is a good Size 2 and has seen quite a bit of action over the years. Another big difference in both the Picks is the size of the neck funnel It’s a good 10” at the base and is quite square. The OKW neck is much narrower at the base and tapers at the top of the funnel so that it almost feels elasticated - this might be good for keeping cold winds out but I find it a little uncomfortable to wear as it’s very tight.

The Pick jumpers, like the other vintage examples, are a little shorter in the body length falling to lower hip height. The cotton square reinforcing patch is placed slightly differently too – it’s not so high up on the neck funnel seam on the Pick jersey. What’s particualry different about the Pick jerseys to all the others is that attention given to the seams. There’s extra taping running from the square neck patch eight along the shoulder seam making it a very strong join. There’s similar cotton taping in the underarm seam.

The wool itself is strong and thick and seems to feel more durable and hard wearing than the OKW offering – the Pick jumper has survived 40 odd years and is still very robust!

Here's me in the Size 2 Pick jersey (trying to hold me belly in!!) You can see the slight discoloration around the neck - not sur ehow to get that out!

Cold War jerseys

The other jerseys really are vintage. One was issued (and dated in the label) in 1957 and made by E&W ltd. Although slightly longer in the body than the Pick this jersey is much shorter in the sleeves – too short for me in fact, although this could be as a result of washing. Interestingly, unlike the Pick jersey it doesn’t have shoulder seams - the body is one single panel. Slightly smaller width at the base of the neck funnel being 9 inches and 6 inches in height. The wool is lovely and soft and although a little tighter on me than the Pick size2 is still a very wearable jumper. Very squarish body construction:

The last jersey from my retired naval gunner is even older – dated to 1955 and made by SD Stratton and sons. It’s very similar to the E&W sub in manufacture and also has no shoulder seams. The body is also quite squarish in shape – not really any taper to the shoulders at all, this is more straight across. The neck funnel is about the same as the Stretton jersey but only 5 inches tall. Like all the vintage jerseys the seams are very well reinforced. These jumpers were made to last and that they certainly have! The wool is also of a wonderful quality. It’s picked up a few marks during it’s years of service like all the vintage jerseys, but really is in wonderful condition considering that its well over 60 years old!

Yours truly wearing the Stratton jersey below. It's a little more snug than the Pick jersey, but I can just about get away with it!! Lovely and soft to wear too and sooo warm!

Modern issued versions

My latest acquisition was issued around 2003-5. This pit-to-pit sizes of the vintage Size 2 subs varies between 19” and 21”. This modern version is also a size 2 and it’s only 19.5” pit-to-pit, but there’s enough give in it to still fit me comfortably. It’s also very long, easily covering my bum (it#s about 30" from the neck seam to the hem)! Unlike all my other issued jerseys the cuffs on this one need to be turned back to be worn. It’s very wide across the base of the neck funnel – just over 10 inches and 6 inches high. The wool has a slightly coarser feel than the vintage subs, not as ‘lambswooly’ but still very comfortable and practical to wear and a good ‘heft’ to it. No shoulder seams either. It’s a great everyday wearer during this chilly weather! You an see how much longer it is in this shot.

and here with the Stratton '55 jersey on top (you can see some of the service wear marks of the vintage jersey)

sleeves:

Made in China

I was a little dismayed to discover that the newest sub I have, issued around 2013, was made in China and not the UK, although it does state that it’s all wool. No other manufacturing details. Comparing with the other subs, even the other contemporary issued example, there’s an obvious difference in quality and especially weight, but it’s still overall a well-made example. There’s a great deal of elasticity in the wool, far more than any of the others, which makes it really stretchy. The arms aren’t as long as the other modern sub but it’s about the same length bodywise. At 7” unfurled it’s also got the highest neck of all my subs. It’s much longer in length and also has good sleeve length. The wool is a little coarse and it’s a little itchy, but otherwise its snug and comfortable to wear.

So, sorry for going on a bit! In my view there’s quite a bit of difference between the high street subs, such as OKW and the real thing. The OKW sub is really well made, from good wool and stylish to wear – but it’s just not the same as the real deal in my view. They are made differently and for a purpose and for me that what’s important. I'm really enjoying wearing them, rotating betweenthe Pick, Stratton and 2003. Might not wear them to go anywhere smart, like I would the OKW, but that's not really the point!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Good afternoon. Entirely I agree. I compared, not in order to recognize worse something. If only to show, that product determined by us as royal navy submariner, or jersey white, is changing for years. And what buyers can expect. For me Niffi/Outdoor Knitwear/Kempton with the receipt or without the receipt from Silvermansa, is the same good, remarkable sweater.

Heavier, or lighter? The Silvermans shop is explaining in the ROYAL NAVY SUB SWEATER description: „ … These superb 100% wool sub sweaters are the same design as the original wartime and early RN issue sweaters, however the machinery to make the really heavy gauge knit is no longer available so the knit is slightly lighter.”

Beyond jersey white a few mums wolly pully, mainly from surpluses. First I bought in 1997 in London. These are the best sweaters at any time I had which. Into navy jersey blue people often hold me for the policeman, because Poland police changed uniforms a few years ago around blue on dark navy. And sweaters with reinforcements at first glance are looking alike. With difficulty. I walk, because they are warm, strong and pretty.

Your Pick White Jersey. If the number of the contract is being placed on the name tag of the sweater from the long character string, e.g. A/ 78/CLO/36286/DC65(3), it is a sweater should be from years 70. If the number is shorter, e.g. SL 22B/2226, these are already years 80 ….. In years 70. some MoD suppliers, e.g. TWK, have always printed the date of the production on the name tag. In the next decade it became a rule, and still in consecutive, the year of the production disappeared from meat pastes.

I have a few sweaters 90/10 or 80/20% in blends of wool with cotton or acrylic, or only cotton. I am using them into warmer days. In order to sweaters with buttons and zip fasteners. They are replacing light jackets.


I am a fan of English sweaters for years 80. In the long term they were these are only sweaters of Shetland wool. Only so it was possible in Poland to buy. In the childhood – years 60. – I wore sweaters, hats, scarves and socks of so-called highland wool - of Polish sheep from the Carpatian. It was warm.
This wool was so itching, that by her gansey whether wolly pully it is real velvet.

Good afternoon, I am pleased to see that you like the British Sweaters, I like the Shetland wool too. I just looked on my Pick White Jersey and it does have the number SL 22B/2226 underneath a longer number, 8405-99-943-1534. So does that mean it was made in the 1980s? I just looked online and the Pick company closed down in 1991.

I too have been taken for a policeman or security man and even a ticket collector on the train, (that from some children whom I don't think had bought tickets) when I wear one of my Navy Blue or Black Ribbed sweaters with the patches.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

There’s been some great posts about subs in the time it’s taken me to get my finger out and write this post – and sorry if this is a bit over long and indulgent! One thing I would say is that submariner jumpers has definitely become a bit of an obsession with me! I am now the proud owner of 6 issued original Royal Navy submarine jerseys (as they are referred to on the labels, rather than sweaters or jumpers). Four can probably be classed as vintage and these originally belonging to a retired Royal Navy Chief Weapon Engineering Artificer who joined the navy in 1954 and was on submarines for over 30 years. The other two are more modern version issued over the last 10 years or so.

This means that I can now compare the ‘real deal’ to the high street version of a submariner, both contemporary and vintage, using the example I bought from Outdoor Knitwear, something I’ve been dying to do since I got the submariner bug!

The first thing I noticed about all the issued jerseys, new and old, is that they are generally a bit whiter – more of an ivory than the cream / ecru that the high street versions tend to be (at least my Outdoor Knitwear sub). The next thing that struck me was that the wool yarn used and knit was a lot thicker. The OKN sweater is knit is very fine and narrow by comparison. The older subs definitely have a heavier heft, with more of a soft, almost fluffy lambswool feel – very different to the ‘manufactured’ feel of the OKW jumper.

Here's some shots of the modern issued sub on the right next to the OKW sub on the right hopefully shpowing the difference is yarn.

The other thing that struck me immediately was the shape of the neck funnel. It’s quite square on the originals, not tapered in at the top like my OKW sub. Generally, the join between the neck funnel and the body of the jersey on the issued subs is a lot straighter too and inline with the shoulders, with less curvature of the seam into the chest.

Here a shot of the modern issued sub on the left next to the Outdoor Knitwear sub on the right to give an indication of

the neck differences.


Pick Jerseys from the 70s

Both the Pick jerseys date to the mid 70’s. One is size 1 and in issued but unworn/new condition – which is really useful when comparing the original condition of the wool etc and how white it originally was against the worn examples. The other Pick is a good Size 2 and has seen quite a bit of action over the years. Another big difference in both the Picks is the size of the neck funnel It’s a good 10” at the base and is quite square. The OKW neck is much narrower at the base and tapers at the top of the funnel so that it almost feels elasticated - this might be good for keeping cold winds out but I find it a little uncomfortable to wear as it’s very tight.

The Pick jumpers, like the other vintage examples, are a little shorter in the body length falling to lower hip height. The cotton square reinforcing patch is placed slightly differently too – it’s not so high up on the neck funnel seam on the Pick jersey. What’s particualry different about the Pick jerseys to all the others is that attention given to the seams. There’s extra taping running from the square neck patch eight along the shoulder seam making it a very strong join. There’s similar cotton taping in the underarm seam.

The wool itself is strong and thick and seems to feel more durable and hard wearing than the OKW offering – the Pick jumper has survived 40 odd years and is still very robust!

Here's me in the Size 2 Pick jersey (trying to hold me belly in!!) You can see the slight discoloration around the neck - not sur ehow to get that out!

Cold War jerseys

The other jerseys really are vintage. One was issued (and dated in the label) in 1957 and made by E&W ltd. Although slightly longer in the body than the Pick this jersey is much shorter in the sleeves – too short for me in fact, although this could be as a result of washing. Interestingly, unlike the Pick jersey it doesn’t have shoulder seams - the body is one single panel. Slightly smaller width at the base of the neck funnel being 9 inches and 6 inches in height. The wool is lovely and soft and although a little tighter on me than the Pick size2 is still a very wearable jumper. Very squarish body construction:

The last jersey from my retired naval gunner is even older – dated to 1955 and made by SD Stratton and sons. It’s very similar to the E&W sub in manufacture and also has no shoulder seams. The body is also quite squarish in shape – not really any taper to the shoulders at all, this is more straight across. The neck funnel is about the same as the Stretton jersey but only 5 inches tall. Like all the vintage jerseys the seams are very well reinforced. These jumpers were made to last and that they certainly have! The wool is also of a wonderful quality. It’s picked up a few marks during it’s years of service like all the vintage jerseys, but really is in wonderful condition considering that its well over 60 years old!

Yours truly wearing the Stratton jersey below. It's a little more snug than the Pick jersey, but I can just about get away with it!! Lovely and soft to wear too and sooo warm!

Modern issued versions

My latest acquisition was issued around 2003-5. This pit-to-pit sizes of the vintage Size 2 subs varies between 19” and 21”. This modern version is also a size 2 and it’s only 19.5” pit-to-pit, but there’s enough give in it to still fit me comfortably. It’s also very long, easily covering my bum (it#s about 30" from the neck seam to the hem)! Unlike all my other issued jerseys the cuffs on this one need to be turned back to be worn. It’s very wide across the base of the neck funnel – just over 10 inches and 6 inches high. The wool has a slightly coarser feel than the vintage subs, not as ‘lambswooly’ but still very comfortable and practical to wear and a good ‘heft’ to it. No shoulder seams either. It’s a great everyday wearer during this chilly weather! You an see how much longer it is in this shot.

and here with the Stratton '55 jersey on top (you can see some of the service wear marks of the vintage jersey)

sleeves:

Made in China

I was a little dismayed to discover that the newest sub I have, issued around 2013, was made in China and not the UK, although it does state that it’s all wool. No other manufacturing details. Comparing with the other subs, even the other contemporary issued example, there’s an obvious difference in quality and especially weight, but it’s still overall a well-made example. There’s a great deal of elasticity in the wool, far more than any of the others, which makes it really stretchy. The arms aren’t as long as the other modern sub but it’s about the same length bodywise. At 7” unfurled it’s also got the highest neck of all my subs. It’s much longer in length and also has good sleeve length. The wool is a little coarse and it’s a little itchy, but otherwise its snug and comfortable to wear.

So, sorry for going on a bit! In my view there’s quite a bit of difference between the high street subs, such as OKW and the real thing. The OKW sub is really well made, from good wool and stylish to wear – but it’s just not the same as the real deal in my view. They are made differently and for a purpose and for me that what’s important. I'm really enjoying wearing them, rotating betweenthe Pick, Stratton and 2003. Might not wear them to go anywhere smart, like I would the OKW, but that's not really the point!

Wow, what a fantastic report, have you thought of doing that professionally? It is interesting to see the differences, you were lucky to get those older ones form the 1950s and in such good condition too. Apart from the one from the seaman and those recently bought, did you get the other older ones from Surplus shops or online auction sites? I shouldn't worry about the discolouration too much, trying to get that out of aged garments probably would cause more harm than good and in an odd was enhances the Jerseys. I presume you have an extension on your house to keep all these in. You only need one more, then you will have one for each day of the week. (I like the flying jackets and guitar in the back ground too.)

 

[Paulgo253]

just looked on my Pick White Jersey and it does have the number SL 22B/2226 underneath a longer number, 8405-99-943-1534. So does that mean it was made in the 1980s? I just looked online and the Pick company closed down in 1991.

Generally contract numbers beginning SL were used from around 1989 to the mid 90's - and you're right Pick went out of business in 1991 I think SL31 ran from 1981 to 1990 but I've not managed to find anything for SL22 (all the SL's seem to be in the 30s but I'm far from an expert!!) . Before this they ysed CT2, CT3, CT4 etc and the a/78 prefix (which mine have) ran from the mid 60's to around 1979.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Generally contract numbers beginning SL were used from around 1989 to the mid 90's -a nd you;re right Pick went out of business in t 1991, SL31 ran from 19+81 to 1990 but I've not managed to find anything for SL22 (all the SL's seem to be in the 30s but I'm far from an expert!!) . Before this they ysed CT2, CT3, CT4 etc and the a/78 prefix (which mine has) ran from the mid 60's to around 1979.

Ok, thanks, my Pick too has the little cotton reinforcements inside at the neck/top of sleeves as does the one I bought from Silvermans. The Navy Sub I bought elsewhere, is made in the UK but does not have those reinforcements.

 

[Paulgo253]

Wow, what a fantastic report, have you thought of doing that professionally? It is interesting to see the differences, you were lucky to get those older ones form the 1950s and in such good condition too. Apart from the one from the seaman and those recently bought, did you get the other older ones from Surplus shops or online auction sites? I shouldn't worry about the discolouration too much, trying to get that out of aged garments probably would cause more harm than good and in an odd was enhances the Jerseys. I presume you have an extension on your house to keep all these in. You only need one more, then you will have one for each day of the week. (I like the flying jackets and guitar in the back ground too.)

Thanks - I do work in comms actally! I was very, very lucky with the older subs - all my Christmasses sort of came at once! I got the 'new' Size 1 Pick off ebay, corresponded with the owner who is a lovely old bloke and ended up buying all his subs for a very reasonable price too! The newer ones just came from ebay. I don't think I'll mess around to get them clean. They have a few marks and the odd hole but are wonderful examples - been wearing the '55 sub today!

Your point about the Silverman's jersey having the seam tapes like Picks is interesting! When I spoke to the gentleman at Silverman's he said their subs supply the Navy, but they now just seem to sell Kempton owned brands of subs (such as Niffi and Outdoor Knit Wear), which although very well made from what I've seen don't seem to be made the same as issued RN subs.

 

[rolando_ol]

Anyone have tips on the guideboat sizing? Slim/trim or contemporary American chubster sizing?

 

[Ticklishchap]

Thanks.
I don't know which sweater it is about. Most probably for this Das Boot.
He is called: „Sweter golf dla załóg jednostek pływających MW” (Sweater golf -roll neck- for crews of vessels MW - Polish Navy) of pattern 501A MON.
I am giving two cords:
- to one thing around contractors MON (Polish MoD) San Marko companies (a bit of such Polish Remploy):
http://www.sanmarko.pl/produkcjasm.htm
- to the outfitter military and outdoor, here it is possible to examine the sweater from a few sides:
http://www.uscamo.pl/product-pol-97...ojennej-Wz-501A-MON-Czarny-Oryginal-Nowy.html
In the net it is easy to find more photographs writing down sweater 501A MON. New in the shop of supplying the serviceman cost c 169 złotych – c 35 - 36 £.
I could see only a black colour.
I have the version without the zip fastener and without patches on elbows – 501 MON. Apart from black I could still see navy blue.
I did a few photographs. Poorly it left, so I will wait for the sun.
501 is also a product of the San Marko company from Poznań and is as the last sweater in the first link. In second …
There is also an English-speaking side of the shop. I am giving the link to 501, but it there is also more about 501A: http://armyworld.pl/product-eng-6215-Military-Woolen-Sweater-Polish-501-MON-Original-Black-New.html

Hmmm …. Jersey Man’s Heavy. I also like. A few mums older of MoD, but non issued. This topic is greater, at least not this way popular, like of RAF roll neck, whether submariner.

Unpleasantly for me the table in the entry spilt. Next time I will sit more comfortably.

Pierogi indeed isn't bad. I still like fried. I unfortunately in London, whom very much I like, was centuries ago. Around 12 or more years. Transits through Heathrow – with small looking by the small window of the aeroplane at the panorama - aren't counting.
There was such saying a long time ago, a long time ago in Poland: London smog. I think that at present he is Warsaw bigger. For the weekend I am going to Gdynia to breathe a little with sea air. I will try in the next week to write something about „ wolly pully ”.

Thank you very much for that. Of the sweaters in your links, I especially liked - in the www.sanmarko.pl - the second sweater, Khaki 90% wool. It's quite similar to one of my Woolly Pullies ('Jersey Man's Heavy') which is dark brown. Also, I have a brown military-style Wool sweater with suede patches. But I would like to add the San Marko Khaki to my collection!

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

Thank you very much for that. Of the sweaters in your links, I especially liked - in the www.sanmarko.pl - the second sweater, Khaki 90% wool. It's quite similar to one of my Woolly Pullies ('Jersey Man's Heavy') which is dark brown. Also, I have a brown military-style Wool sweater with suede patches. But I would like to add the San Marko Khaki to my collection!

Great I could help. It is a sweater of the Polish army. I am still enclosing two cords, where shown there are more military sweaters:
http://www.sortmund.pl/search.php?text=sweter
http://sklepwph.pl/pl/c/Swetry-sluzb-mundurowych/97
Quality, provided I can work out, wool and the polyester/nylon seem similar to sweaters of military different countries, made of blends, so as the Bundeswehr sweater, or the British jumper utility. That is …. I prefer wolly pully.

He is a curiosity in the first link grey-steel „ sweater of the pilot ”. There are no patches. On Ebay and the Polish auction portal allegro.pl I could see at one time wolly pully without reinforcements in version 100% wools and 80/20% wool/nylon. In the olive colour. The prefix „22 C” before the number NSN shows that it is a sweater for aircrew RAF. On the name tag additionally is described as: „ Mans Heavy Jersey Olive Round Neck Without Patches ”. One of them was produced by Remploy between 1990 1994.

Interesting, that the same number of the contract (SL 34a/358) has „ submariner ” produced by Remploy. This sweater has the different finish a little bit. Seams linking sleeves with the torso, firmly they are marked, as if they were outside. However the lower part of the ruff – c 0.5 ” – isn't ribbed, only smooth, as the rest of the sweater.

He also a little bit has the different description on the name tag: „Jersey Mens Wool White” and prefix „V023” before NSN number what he/she is marking, that the object is intended for tri-services. Whether of RAF in years 90. could still use white roll neck?

If I could be of help in something, here you are.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

Ok, thanks, my Pick too has the little cotton reinforcements inside at the neck/top of sleeves as does the one I bought from Silvermans. The Navy Sub I bought elsewhere, is made in the UK but does not have those reinforcements.

Good afternoon. I apologise for such a late response.

The number of the SL 22 B/ 2226 contract is, the way wrote Paulgo 253 untypical and difficult to find. I don't also consider myself the specialist. However sometimes for myself I like to note something or to keep photographs in the form. A bit I will speculate.

It results from the NSN number passed by you that your sweater has size 1: NSN 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1534, it is size 1. 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1535, it is size 2. On the name tag in part concerning the wash probably isn't marked „ Hand Wash Only ”, only a given recipe for Machine and Handwash. I have taking the name tag of such a sweater, but the name tag my (SL 33c/417) has the identical graphics and the arrangement of the information. On my there is no year, however I have v-neck Pick in the navy colour number of the SL33c/470 contract with printed year 1990. And I have taking the name tag of olive JMH in order to Remploy SL33c/66 with date 1989. I can and so suppose from the year 1990 is mine.

Numbers of contracts of SL series (e.g. SL 31 from 1983 till 1990, whereas SL 34 from 1990 - 1994) consistently were applied by MoD for a year 1983 till 1994. Ordering SL 22 about the untypical numbering like e.g. could appear, as distinguishing the additional, supplementing order, e.g. during and the Gulf Wars. He can be this way, that your sweater was ordered and produced between the autumn of 1990 and the date of closing the factory J.Pick &Sons. But whether he is that's true?

As similarly as from SL 22 B, with difficulty he is to determine – for at least me - dates of the production Jersey Man’ Heavy Round Neck from the ST2b/3877 contract. They were these are sweaters in the colour blue grey, navy and olive.

For every for me these name tags? I like history. I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

There’s been some great posts about subs in the time it’s taken me to get my finger out and write this post – and sorry if this is a bit over long and indulgent! One thing I would say is that submariner jumpers has definitely become a bit of an obsession with me! I am now the proud owner of 6 issued original Royal Navy submarine jerseys (as they are referred to on the labels, rather than sweaters or jumpers). Four can probably be classed as vintage and these originally belonging to a retired Royal Navy Chief Weapon Engineering Artificer who joined the navy in 1954 and was on submarines for over 30 years. The other two are more modern version issued over the last 10 years or so.

This means that I can now compare the ‘real deal’ to the high street version of a submariner, both contemporary and vintage, using the example I bought from Outdoor Knitwear, something I’ve been dying to do since I got the submariner bug!

The first thing I noticed about all the issued jerseys, new and old, is that they are generally a bit whiter – more of an ivory than the cream / ecru that the high street versions tend to be (at least my Outdoor Knitwear sub). The next thing that struck me was that the wool yarn used and knit was a lot thicker. The OKN sweater is knit is very fine and narrow by comparison. The older subs definitely have a heavier heft, with more of a soft, almost fluffy lambswool feel – very different to the ‘manufactured’ feel of the OKW jumper.

Here's some shots of the modern issued sub on the right next to the OKW sub on the right hopefully shpowing the difference is yarn.

The other thing that struck me immediately was the shape of the neck funnel. It’s quite square on the originals, not tapered in at the top like my OKW sub. Generally, the join between the neck funnel and the body of the jersey on the issued subs is a lot straighter too and inline with the shoulders, with less curvature of the seam into the chest.

Here a shot of the modern issued sub on the left next to the Outdoor Knitwear sub on the right to give an indication of

the neck differences.


Pick Jerseys from the 70s

Both the Pick jerseys date to the mid 70’s. One is size 1 and in issued but unworn/new condition – which is really useful when comparing the original condition of the wool etc and how white it originally was against the worn examples. The other Pick is a good Size 2 and has seen quite a bit of action over the years. Another big difference in both the Picks is the size of the neck funnel It’s a good 10” at the base and is quite square. The OKW neck is much narrower at the base and tapers at the top of the funnel so that it almost feels elasticated - this might be good for keeping cold winds out but I find it a little uncomfortable to wear as it’s very tight.

The Pick jumpers, like the other vintage examples, are a little shorter in the body length falling to lower hip height. The cotton square reinforcing patch is placed slightly differently too – it’s not so high up on the neck funnel seam on the Pick jersey. What’s particualry different about the Pick jerseys to all the others is that attention given to the seams. There’s extra taping running from the square neck patch eight along the shoulder seam making it a very strong join. There’s similar cotton taping in the underarm seam.

The wool itself is strong and thick and seems to feel more durable and hard wearing than the OKW offering – the Pick jumper has survived 40 odd years and is still very robust!

Here's me in the Size 2 Pick jersey (trying to hold me belly in!!) You can see the slight discoloration around the neck - not sur ehow to get that out!

Cold War jerseys

The other jerseys really are vintage. One was issued (and dated in the label) in 1957 and made by E&W ltd. Although slightly longer in the body than the Pick this jersey is much shorter in the sleeves – too short for me in fact, although this could be as a result of washing. Interestingly, unlike the Pick jersey it doesn’t have shoulder seams - the body is one single panel. Slightly smaller width at the base of the neck funnel being 9 inches and 6 inches in height. The wool is lovely and soft and although a little tighter on me than the Pick size2 is still a very wearable jumper. Very squarish body construction:

The last jersey from my retired naval gunner is even older – dated to 1955 and made by SD Stratton and sons. It’s very similar to the E&W sub in manufacture and also has no shoulder seams. The body is also quite squarish in shape – not really any taper to the shoulders at all, this is more straight across. The neck funnel is about the same as the Stretton jersey but only 5 inches tall. Like all the vintage jerseys the seams are very well reinforced. These jumpers were made to last and that they certainly have! The wool is also of a wonderful quality. It’s picked up a few marks during it’s years of service like all the vintage jerseys, but really is in wonderful condition considering that its well over 60 years old!

Yours truly wearing the Stratton jersey below. It's a little more snug than the Pick jersey, but I can just about get away with it!! Lovely and soft to wear too and sooo warm!

Modern issued versions

My latest acquisition was issued around 2003-5. This pit-to-pit sizes of the vintage Size 2 subs varies between 19” and 21”. This modern version is also a size 2 and it’s only 19.5” pit-to-pit, but there’s enough give in it to still fit me comfortably. It’s also very long, easily covering my bum (it#s about 30" from the neck seam to the hem)! Unlike all my other issued jerseys the cuffs on this one need to be turned back to be worn. It’s very wide across the base of the neck funnel – just over 10 inches and 6 inches high. The wool has a slightly coarser feel than the vintage subs, not as ‘lambswooly’ but still very comfortable and practical to wear and a good ‘heft’ to it. No shoulder seams either. It’s a great everyday wearer during this chilly weather! You an see how much longer it is in this shot.

and here with the Stratton '55 jersey on top (you can see some of the service wear marks of the vintage jersey)

sleeves:

Made in China

I was a little dismayed to discover that the newest sub I have, issued around 2013, was made in China and not the UK, although it does state that it’s all wool. No other manufacturing details. Comparing with the other subs, even the other contemporary issued example, there’s an obvious difference in quality and especially weight, but it’s still overall a well-made example. There’s a great deal of elasticity in the wool, far more than any of the others, which makes it really stretchy. The arms aren’t as long as the other modern sub but it’s about the same length bodywise. At 7” unfurled it’s also got the highest neck of all my subs. It’s much longer in length and also has good sleeve length. The wool is a little coarse and it’s a little itchy, but otherwise its snug and comfortable to wear.

So, sorry for going on a bit! In my view there’s quite a bit of difference between the high street subs, such as OKW and the real thing. The OKW sub is really well made, from good wool and stylish to wear – but it’s just not the same as the real deal in my view. They are made differently and for a purpose and for me that what’s important. I'm really enjoying wearing them, rotating betweenthe Pick, Stratton and 2003. Might not wear them to go anywhere smart, like I would the OKW, but that's not really the point!

Good afternoon. Great work. Great thanks. And large collection.
Sub sweaters from years 50. very much it is interesting.
The comparison also showed that however OKW sweaters were different, than in our times ordered by the fleet.
I gave some thought to it comparing photographs, but you nicely checked it and you described.
OKW/Niffi Sweaters are Sub M.O.D produced according to the specification UK/SC/ 3712. That is the same what wolly pully (the information is on name tags and on the side TW Kempton). When somewhere I saw, that sub Royal Navy sweaters have also a M.O.D specification. UK/SC/ 5905, I started having doubts.
Unfortunately more I am knowing nothing about these specifications and I only think that he is in them more about the cut and the kind and the basis weight of wool.

 

[Ticklishchap]

Great I could help. It is a sweater of the Polish army. I am still enclosing two cords, where shown there are more military sweaters:
http://www.sortmund.pl/search.php?text=sweter
http://sklepwph.pl/pl/c/Swetry-sluzb-mundurowych/97
Quality, provided I can work out, wool and the polyester/nylon seem similar to sweaters of military different countries, made of blends, so as the Bundeswehr sweater, or the British jumper utility. That is …. I prefer wolly pully.


If I could be of help in something, here you are.

Yes, I shall PM you about that Khaki sweater - to add to my extensive collection of military knitwear. Like you, I prefer the 100% wool 'Woolly Pully' military sweater: they are very addictive and I have been wearing a different colour each day over the past week.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

Good afternoon. I apologise for such a late response.

The number of the SL 22 B/ 2226 contract is, the way wrote Paulgo 253 untypical and difficult to find. I don't also consider myself the specialist. However sometimes for myself I like to note something or to keep photographs in the form. A bit I will speculate.

It results from the NSN number passed by you that your sweater has size 1: NSN 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1534, it is size 1. 8405 - 99 - 943 - 1535, it is size 2. On the name tag in part concerning the wash probably isn't marked „ Hand Wash Only ”, only a given recipe for Machine and Handwash. I have taking the name tag of such a sweater, but the name tag my (SL 33c/417) has the identical graphics and the arrangement of the information. On my there is no year, however I have v-neck Pick in the navy colour number of the SL33c/470 contract with printed year 1990. And I have taking the name tag of olive JMH in order to Remploy SL33c/66 with date 1989. I can and so suppose from the year 1990 is mine.

Numbers of contracts of SL series (e.g. SL 31 from 1983 till 1990, whereas SL 34 from 1990 - 1994) consistently were applied by MoD for a year 1983 till 1994. Ordering SL 22 about the untypical numbering like e.g. could appear, as distinguishing the additional, supplementing order, e.g. during and the Gulf Wars. He can be this way, that your sweater was ordered and produced between the autumn of 1990 and the date of closing the factory J.Pick &Sons. But whether he is that's true?

As similarly as from SL 22 B, with difficulty he is to determine – for at least me - dates of the production Jersey Man’ Heavy Round Neck from the ST2b/3877 contract. They were these are sweaters in the colour blue grey, navy and olive.

For every for me these name tags? I like history. I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.

There is exactly a Pick example on Ebay jersey white. After the name tag – CT4A/1854, undated of production - it seems that it is about a sweater produced round about 1986-87. One from earlier Pick jersey white – CT4A/1071 he has the date and it is 1982. Next Jersey Mans’s Heavy olive round neck produced by Pick the number of the contract CT4A/1694 has date 1985. Complicating the matter ’ Jersey Man’s Heavy olive round neck in order to Pick with the contract number SL 31a/1952 who is being dated for 1983.

It results from it that the CT numbering and the numbering of SL series were in some period of years 80. applied parallel.

If in the army everything was straight and logical, it would not even be secret, or funny.


A link to Ebay auction: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Royal-Na...625610?hash=item2f1559210a:g:nQQAAOSwhzRae3Yz

 

[Ticklishchap]

There is exactly a Pick example on Ebay jersey white. After the name tag – CT4A/1854, undated of production - it seems that it is about a sweater produced round about 1986-87. One from earlier Pick jersey white – CT4A/1071 he has the date and it is 1982. Next Jersey Mans’s Heavy olive round neck produced by Pick the number of the contract CT4A/1694 has date 1985. Complicating the matter ’ Jersey Man’s Heavy olive round neck in order to Pick with the contract number SL 31a/1952 who is being dated for 1983.

It results from it that the CT numbering and the numbering of SL series were in some period of years 80. applied parallel.

If in the army everything was straight and logical, it would not even be secret, or funny.


A link to Ebay auction: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Royal-Na...625610?hash=item2f1559210a:g:nQQAAOSwhzRae3Yz

That is very nice and I would bid for it were it not for having the similar Silverman's sweater that has lasted me so many years.
I also have Outdoor Knitwear's rollback version of the Woolly Pully (Jersey, Heavy Men's or sometimes Jersey Heavy Wool) although most of my Woolly Pullies are crew (round) neck.

 

[Ticklishchap]

Good afternoon. Great work. Great thanks. And large collection.
Sub sweaters from years 50. very much it is interesting.
OKW/Niffi Sweaters are Sub M.O.D produced according to the specification UK/SC/ 3712. That is the same what wolly pully .

That's right: I have been wearing Woolly Pullies made to that MOD specification since the 1970s.

 

[Ticklishchap]

Good afternoon. I apologise for such a late response.
I like history.

Me too. My interest in these sweaters is linked to my interest in the Armed Services and my interest in history.


[/QUOTE] I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.[/QUOTE]

I remember the end of Leonid Brezhnev. I think he was succeeded by Yuri Andropov, who only lasted a short time. I also remember following with interest the Falkland Islands conflict, being pretty much equally interested in both the Royal Navy and British Army.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

Me too. My interest in these sweaters is linked to my interest in the Armed Services and my interest in history.

I have jersey man ’ heavy in the navy colour from 1982. There was a martial law in Poland then, and Great Britain fought over the Falkland Islands. At us the boss of the Eastern European mafia died- I apologise: boss of the communist party - Leonid Brezhnev, and somewhere or other behind the Iron Curtain Remploy produced the next sweater. It is stimulating the imagination.[/QUOTE]

I remember the end of Leonid Brezhnev. I think he was succeeded by Yuri Andropov, who only lasted a short time. I also remember following with interest the Falkland Islands conflict, being pretty much equally interested in both the Royal Navy and British Army.[/QUOTE]
I started being interested in a history of the Polish navy half of years 70. Since during the II world war small Polish Navy closely cooperated with large Royal Navy. In the end she found this RN oneself in the centre interests.

Two things appealed to me from sea RN clothes: duffle coat and sub sweater. In duffle coat I walked from a child. In brown, dark blue, whether into blue-white grating. Coats had the different cut a little bit and they were called ”budrysówka ”. He is a close relative, because duffle coat is coming from the so-called “Polish coat”.

It was with sweaters worse, because so it wasn't. I had the time by hand done with so-called English stitch golf. Actually he had the colour very brightly blue. Today I think that he was similar to wolly pully roll neck (without patches) what OKW is doing.

But what my joy was, when – after several dozen years from it 1975, whether of 1976 - I bought for myself real sub Pick sweater.

 

[Grandfather's Hat]

That's right: I have been wearing Woolly Pullies made to that MOD specification since the 1970s.

These specifications interest me. They include all wool accessories, i.e. wolly pully, jersey white, jersey seaman, scarves, socks? For every element is she different?
From older times.
Such is a “Royal Navy Uniforms 1930 – 1945” [J Martin. Brayley] and I am thinking, whether for her not to buy. However I don't know, whether a lot of space they devoted in it to sweaters, whether jersey seamans? They are usually only mentioning sweaters, and authors are writing mainly about the basic uniform and military ranks, badges and decorations. That is about it, about what still in many different books it is possible to read. And it is about sweaters little.
I looked through a lot of Royal Navy photographs in January from times of the II world war in order to watch sweaters. It is a pity that they aren't these are colour photographs. Of sweaters roll neck it is much. Omitting private sweaters of sailors – are also interesting – it is possible to see three basic groups:

- with the short collar (turtle neck) rather extensive and most often bright (ecru), more rarely darker (I suspect, that brightly grey), very rarely dark (probably navy),

- with the long collar (roll neck), rest like higher,

- with the long collar, but with shorter ribbings, very much similar to sweaters produced by the company Original Montgomery well-known around duffle coat. The ones are most often dark blue.

When I read comparing Paulgo253 sweaters, one more time I looked a few photographs through. I came a few sweaters across, whom they don't have seams on shoulders. Earlier I didn't notice it.

Sailors are wearing them differently. Sweaters are most often kind of too big and used up – it is above all working clothes. Very much they often turn cuffs up. The most I like him, when they are carrying the collar rolled up turtle. There are also sweaters about the cut whom less I like: with the line of the collar taken not in the line of the seam of shoulders, but going the chest up. And I thought that it was contemporary invention.