Which religious group?

[Samsa]

Somehow, I think that the greatest moral person in the universe is the one who strives to give and serve, and yet has no hope of heaven.

Or am I just a cock-eyed existentialist?

karol

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but if I can interpret your post, what you seem to be saying is "self-less love is better than selfish love." I.e., it presumes that the charitable people of any religion are doing their good deeds in order to get to heaven. For some of them, that's undoubtedly true. After having read about any number of saints (Catholic ones), however, it seems that most of them do what they do purely out of a love for God. So, when Mother Theresa was tending to the poor, I sort of doubt she was thinking "this'll get me into heaven." Instead she was probably striving (and succeeding to) see Christ in the lowliest and downtrodden members of society.

 

[Undertow]

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but if I can interpret your post, what you seem to be saying is "self-less love is better than selfish love." I.e., it presumes that the charitable people of any religion are doing their good deeds in order to get to heaven. For some of them, that's undoubtedly true. After having read about any number of saints (Catholic ones), however, it seems that most of them do what they do purely out of a love for God. So, when Mother Theresa was tending to the poor, I sort of doubt she was thinking "this'll get me into heaven." Instead she was probably striving (and succeeding to) see Christ in the lowliest and downtrodden members of society.

Samsa, I think I understood your question and I certainly don’t want to make an answer on behalf of KD. However, if I understood KD’s statement, then let me put forth my interpretation.

You’re an American medic on the battlefield after a particularly hairy fight, WWII European Theatre. The enemy has been wiped out and you’re tending to the wounded. You stumble across (quite literally) a German soldier badly in need of assistance. You don’t help him because he’s American; in fact, it makes no difference who he is or what side he’s on. Instead, you help him because he’s another human being just like you and he deserves the same love and respect as you would want. You’re not going to win the war by helping this soldier, and likewise, it’s not as if you think you’re winning the hearts and minds of the enemy. You’re just a good soul who sees human suffering and tries to aid this soldier in his most dire moments.

God isn’t anywhere in that and, in my opinion of religion, doesn’t need to be.

In the same vein, a person in service, like Mother Teresa, does not necessarily have to act on behalf of God so much as on behalf of humanity. Mother Teresa is a bad example because she was Catholic but what about someone like Dr. Kevorkian? Without trying to set off an ethics/morals bomb on euthanasia, let’s just assume euthanasia is acceptable; Kevorkian would be ‘helping’ his patients without God in mind, would he not?

 

[K.D. Lightner]

It would be someone who does a good and moral act without the benefit of being a believer or, yes, believing that he or she would be rewarded by a god for the act, either on earth or in an afterlife.

In other words, were I to walk by a burning building and see a child or someone trapped in that building, and no fire department on the scene as yet, I would be compelled to rush in a try to help or save that person, if at all possible.

Why? Because I would feel it was my duty to do so as a living, breathing human on this planet. If I died trying, well, then I'd die. But, I feel I would have to try.

karol

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Striving to do good...is certainly blessed by god(if you believe)...or the law of reciprocity. You do reap what you sow. However the idea that goodness or kindness alone can get you to heaven goes along with "earning your way". The most high of that heaven has always stated that earning your way there,is...and has been a serious misconception. The idea that we can do it ourselves keeps our minds and hearts from accepting the simple free gift for us all. None of us are ever that good. It took a perfect savior to apease or address our shortcomings and steadfast imperfections and do it for us. Acknowledgement of his "payment in full".....or paying our debt..is the only way to achieve Heaven...or so he claims.

 

[Foofoogal]

My point being that one can communicate one's faith without words, so that while a Christian may be "quiet" by your definition they can still be quite effective in conveying their truths with their actions.
__________________

The Great Commission requires words. It can be found at the end of Matthew and Mark in the Bible.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

The Great Commission requires words. It can be found at the end of Matthew and Mark in the Bible.

Here is the thing about the Great Commission.

It says go and preach until all nations. Last I checked...about 99.9% of the developed world has -heard- the Gospel.

So unless you are willing to go to the undeveloped world, maybe you should let those who have -heard- but made the willful choice not to convert, be free to reject the good news. In fact, God gave us free will to do just that.

Huge difference between preaching to the 'unknowing' and the 'chose a different path despite hearing ' people of the world.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I would find it easier to be religious than to be agnostic. [huh]
I believe Mother Theresa questioned her faith, as many faithful do, because the brain starts to work with logic after blindly believing. One starts to do the math and the numbers don't add up. To put it simply, you are told you must have faith and that things happen because God wants them to happen and it is all controled by a power so powerful that we must not expect black and white answers to our questions. But it will be worth it in the end. Whether it be a flock of virgins or everlasting peace, there are many reasons to just have faith. A lot of what religion seems to give is comfort (unless you are talking about mutilating childrens genitalia in the name of religion). People like comfort. It is much better than being castigated or even ousted for being doubtful.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Human nature is not in tune with the spiritual as God originally designed us to be. It is in our nature to struggle with our faith, even after we are shown the works and power of God. I can assure you, my faith is not blind. In my life, it's been rare that I have sought God out ("God-botherers" - huh) but He has made it abundantly clear throughout my life that He is involved in it nonetheless. Those who have read the Bible find that in many cases, the men and women who are today considered great prophets and leaders of old, like Moses or Jeremiah, were sought out by God but looked for excuses for following Him and tried to evade Him. Today, as then, you can run but you can't hide. lol

Now I imagine your next question will be, if God has given us a free will to choose whether to follow Him or not, why does He move so powerfully in some lives and not, say, appear as a burning pillar of flame in front of Doran or Bebop or give them the proof they need that He is God? Well, firstly, in my case, I was a gift from God to my mother (aren't all babies?). My mother was raised by atheist parents and grew up without a knowledge of God. As she grew older, she saw that many of her friends either went to Sunday school or church or at least ended up with a choice of whether to know and follow God or not. She was given no such choice. Feeling this want, as a teenager she saw a vision of Jesus when she was about to cross a street, something she never even told my Dad - he would simply have ridiculed the idea.

When my parents were married, my mother was told she would never be able to carry a child full term, after four years of miscarriages. For a long time, she prayed and prayed and prayed for a baby. In response, the woman who could have no children had first one, and then another in 1972. She promised God that she wouldn't let her babies grow up as she had, without a knowledge of Him and without the power to choose if they wanted to follow Him or not.

Of course, there'll be a million scoffers to say it's all coincidence and not evidence of God's intervention, but those scoffers haven't met the God I've met on the journey from there to here - and I mean met, literally.

Everyone has the right to follow or not follow God, to believe or not believe. Jesus never forced His ideas on anyone, nor do I attempt to. But I will say that all of life is like those picture puzzles - some people see the old lady's face, others see the young woman; or like a glass of water - to some, the glass is half full, to others, half empty. It's the same with spritual things. If you're not open to receive God, he won't force Himself on you. You'll see only the empty glass.

Unless, like Jonah, or me, you try to run from time to time and He has a promise to keep to a caring mother.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Here is the thing about the Great Commission.

It says go and preach until all nations. Last I checked...about 99.9% of the developed world has -heard- the Gospel.

So unless you are willing to go to the undeveloped world, maybe you should let those who have -heard- but made the willful choice not to convert, be free to reject the good news. In fact, God gave us free will to do just that.

Huge difference between preaching to the 'unknowing' and the 'chose a different path despite hearing ' people of the world.

My local church has a number of community outreaches, from soup kitchens to fitness and healthy cooking classes, and you'd be surprised how many people are curious about the church running these programs and hear the Gospel for the first time after asking us about our beliefs. These are people, like my mother, raised by atheist parents. You know what the majority of them say? "Why hasn't anyone told me about this before?"

It's a great thing to go to the undeveloped world and help there, but don't doubt that people are hungry for good news in the house next door or down the street.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

My local church has a number of community outreaches, from soup kitchens to fitness and healthy cooking classes, and you'd be surprised how many people are curious about the church running these programs and hear the Gospel for the first time after asking us about our beliefs. These are people, like my mother, raised by atheist parents. You know what the majority of them say? "Why hasn't anyone told me about this before?"

It's a great thing to go to the undeveloped world and help there, but don't doubt that people are hungry for good news in the house next door or down the street.

I don't disagree. However you reached those people through a good work, which does not take 'words first' it takes example first.

You said yourself 'after asking us about our beliefs'.......

Again, vastly different from 'we told them about God whether they asked or not'....which tends to just turn people -right off- from ever listening to any message after that.

I beleive that the Great Commission is best carried out by being an example of 'not of this world' so that people -want to know why- you are different.

 

[Gilbey]

It took a perfect savior to apease or address our shortcomings and steadfast imperfections and do it for us. Acknowledgement of his "payment in full".....or paying our debt..is the only way to achieve Heaven...or so he claims.

AMEN to that, brother! :eusa_clap

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Great posts,Benny Holiday!
HD

 

[Foofoogal]

Miss Neecerie,
With all due respect if you read this whole thread you will see I am not one who will ever knock on doors though I have in the past.
I currently work in a local food pantry and as I feed many, many people with physical food it is a privilege and an honor to share with the one who the Holy Spirit lets me my best friend Jesus. I am talking real people with such desperate lives you cannot imagine. Pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts, single desperate moms, senior citizens. The list is endless.
I have lived without God and with and prefer God. I am only sharing all of this as part of this thread.
Once upon a time when I was a crumpled up mess on my kitchen floor Jesus loud and clear told me. Sandy, I don't give Hope. I am Hope. Without me you and all are hopeless.
I tell everyone I meet these words I am going to share now.
Your mom and dad will fail you. your best friend will fail you, your husband, your wife, your pastor, your boss, your children, and why is because they cannot be God and when we look to them that is idol worship.
Only Jesus is there at 2:00 in the morning when your back is against the wall.
His mercies are new every morning and how He loves us.
He is the only one who brings me to tears for His incredible mercy and love.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

and with all due respect....if 'every single person you meet' has to hear that...whether they -wish to or not-, whether they have their own beliefs or not...

*shrugs*

 

[Aaron Hats]

I'm late to this thread and haven't read all 15 pages so ignore this question if it's already been answered. How did Mormon and Christ Scientist get lumped together?

Aaron

 

[Foofoogal]

I don't tell everyone I meet though I did state that. (sorry) I tell the ones as I stated the Lord gives me the privilege to do that. Maybe one out of 100 to be sure. Why I don't really know.
I learned along time ago He doesn't waste my time.
The Lord is not going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into Heaven and neither am I.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I see Neec, yeah I agree with you totally. A living example of grace is the way Jesus presented Himself, He never imposed His will or ideas on anyone.
Tragically, so many who've professed to be His followers haven't done so well, from the Inquisition down to Northern Ireland.

Thanks HD, it's hard to share stuff when it's so personal!

 

[Samsa]

The Great Commission requires words. It can be found at the end of Matthew and Mark in the Bible.

But the Great Commission was directed at the apostles, not the multitudes...

 

[Foofoogal]

But the Great Commission was directed at the apostles, not the multitudes...

Must be difference of opinions on this one. I will end here on this thread.
Bless you all. Sandy

 

[Bebop]

Quoting the bible and believing that people have conversations with Jesus does not mean much to an atheist. Saying that you have to "meet the God you have met" in order to believe could also be said by the atheist.

A burning pillar of flame appearing before me would make me believe in God as much as a tooth under my pillow would make me believe in the tooth fairy.

Generally speaking, I don't think either camp wants anything drastically different in life. I just think we go about aquiring it in different ways.

When we as a society were in the dark, or dark ages, it was wise to be led by the blind. Today too much light has been shed to still depend on the blind to lead us.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't tell everyone I meet though I did state that. (sorry) I tell the ones as I stated the Lord gives me the privilege to do that. Maybe one out of 100 to be sure. Why I don't really know.
I learned along time ago He doesn't waste my time.

***The Lord is not going to drag anyone kicking and screaming into Heaven****
and neither am I.

Perhaps that's the essence of this plan all along.
To some..even to discuss the matter is "preaching"...and if you quote any scripture...there is no doubt. Rather than looking at it as good news....it's preceived as dreaded news. Some don't want it mentioned or even displayed except in appropriate religious places. Several reasons why. It implies guilt among other reasons...and has been misused. Nothing new....religion has been "used" for years....confused...and hyped by Carnival barkers selling tickets to Paradise. Really though it's like saying "I love you". If it comes from the heart...it can really mean something. If it's only spoken for self gain it will oneday certainly mean very little.
The simple message leading to heaven often gets lost with the zeal of trying to share exciting new knowledge and personal experiences. With that it's either a turnoff to others as not measuring up...or really the simple message is just...well..too simple. We are taught all our life that we must earn our prosperity. Measure up. That's not easy to let go of...so that battle is best not fought. Surely you gotta do something!..and more than likely more than I want to get into. So I don't want to hear about it! Some even wish that it was more just a personal thing. If I could get rid of the thees and thous...I might even read the book. Well..some preach that...it is...and you can....