Which religious group?

[Bebop]

***********
That only proves they're unorganized, except for the ACLU maybe.

Fortunatley, there is no need to organize. What is there to organize? Invasion of total strangers homes to get them to believe what they believe? lol

 

[RIOT]

On another note....I think it takes far more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God. To believe this is all a big coincidence is a big challange....not to mention that without some form of creation by a diety even the big bang hasn't a leg to stand on. The way I see it, to deny the existence really does require far more faith. Thoughts?

Well, we know more today than we did yesterday. The way I see it, we as humans tend to question anything especially with the resources we have today, everything is debatable. More so with religion. Science has evolved our way of thinking. The only thing making religion valid today is faith.

How about cloning, what do the religious folks think about this? Is this evil? What if someone you loved immediately needed a new heart, lung, liver to survive and we have the means to make this happen by cloning. Would you reject this because it is unethical? Thoughts?

 

[John in Covina]

Well, we know more today than we did yesterday. The way I see it, we as humans tend to question anything especially with the resources we have today, everything is debatable. More so with religion. Science has evolved our way of thinking. The only thing making religion valid today is faith.

***********

Religion has always been a matter of faith, past present and future.

 

[RIOT]

***********

Religion has always been a matter of faith, past present and future.

And as time goes more and more are falling off the faith wagon.. look at the poll. So are you certain faith will be as strong in the future?

 

[John in Covina]

And as time goes more and more are falling off the faith wagon.. look at the poll. So are you certain faith will be as strong in the future?

************
When I checked it was 34% atheist 66% relgious roughly 2 to 1, I don't know what that mix is for the US by decade.

I do know that there will be a falling away called (spelling) the Apostisy. Over and over from the Old Testament to the New the faithful are always a Remnant and it will be the same in the End Times. Faith is a funny thing, and for many it becomes stronger after questioning it. Also it has be said that it need only to be the size of a mustard seed to matter.

 

[Bebop]

I think the last time I saw a poll regarding what percentage of people in the U.S. are religious, it was something like 91% of Americans are religious. I believe 2% of Americans claimed to be non-religious. There is no doubt that religious people outnumber non-religious people in the U.S. On an earlier post, I said that this poll represents a cross section of America but the truth is that it always depends on where, when and who is taking the poll. The problem with polls is that you can always find one that backs up your beliefs. So much for polls.

 

[dr greg]

been done

I can say the same thing about believers. Have you ever had an Atheist come to your door to hand you literature that claims you must stop believing? [huh]

The sometimes juvenile but always entertaining Australian comedy show THE CHASER did exactly that, they went to Salt Lake City and knocked on doors very politely asking to hand out atheist literature, well what do you think the reaction was? What you'd expect, hostile! Not much Christian kindness shown I can tell ya...what's good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander when it comes to proselytising god-botherers.

 

[surely]

Thanks deanglen for answering.

Speaks Volumes: refers to providing a basis upon which further examination of the initial reaction will reveal their system of belief. Perhaps its should have been more clearly put as providing a starting point for mapping out their system of belief.

One' Orientation: Their system of belief, the structure considered as a whole unit with its core elements.

It is an extension Jesus' own question to the disciples in Matthew 16:13-17 "Who do the people say I am?".

dean

Thanks deanglen for answering. I would also like to thank you for moving this thread over here and letting it go on. Its quite interesting how it has meandered, going from and back to and again from the original question and quite civil imo. I think we all need to :eusa_clap for ourselves.
Now onto the subject at hand. I was not as clear as could be, perhaps due to my legal training, but i don't think you responded to my fundamental question, which deals with the smugness or arrogance of belief. Yes, that includes atheists and agnostics.
I don't really want to put you on the spot, perhaps its that legal training, so I will put it in a more general way.
Why is it that so often when one has found the answers they sought they feel the necessity either to impose it on others or to shun or dismiss others who have come to a different position?

 

[Benny Holiday]

I think I'm being pretty chill, and I'm a big fat atheist.

Am I not being chill?

Now come on, Doran, I don't think you're big or fat! lol And you're being very chill, as befits the FL. Nah, I was thinking about some incidents that have occurred with people I know here, not as regards the Lounge discussion.

 

[surely]

So far I've been able to avoid declaring what I believe. Anyone interested?

Well, I believe in the POWER of Imagination and the STRENGTH of Reason.

reactions, please.

 

[TraditionalFrog]

Russian Orthodox

 

[deanglen]

Thanks deanglen for answering. I would also like to thank you for moving this thread over here and letting it go on. Its quite interesting how it has meandered, going from and back to and again from the original question and quite civil imo. I think we all need to :eusa_clap for ourselves.
Now onto the subject at hand. I was not as clear as could be, perhaps due to my legal training, but i don't think you responded to my fundamental question, which deals with the smugness or arrogance of belief. Yes, that includes atheists and agnostics.
I don't really want to put you on the spot, perhaps its that legal training, so I will put it in a more general way.
Why is it that so often when one has found the answers they sought they feel the necessity either to impose it on others or to shun or dismiss others who have come to a different position?

Surely.

I didn't move the thread, and I'm not the one who would be able to close it down.
Imposition of a belief system by one upon another, is one thing, presenting, explaining, describing a belief system is another, of course. Short of brainwashing, imposition of beliefs is pretty unlikely, and unproductive.
Smugness, or arrogance about one's beliefs are probably indicative of an arrogant, smug individual. Whether it's hat styles or doctrine, the personality will manifest itself consistently across the spectrum.
On the other hand, conviction that one is 'right' in their beliefs, right in the moral sense, 'right' in so far as they hold beliefs that are 'true' versus 'false', 'right' in the sense that they will make distinctions between their beliefs and anothers and choose their own, viewing those beliefs as that which they accept, and by default, reject others, might be seen as arrogance.
How they interact with contrary or opposing belief structures would be an extension of their belief structure. Personally, I disagree with many of the beliefs expressed here in this thread. I believe those postions are "wrong", "based on inconsistent premises", and so on. Yet I held many of those positions at one time in my life. Had someone not accorded me the respect of engaging me where I was, I wouldn't be where I am today. I was never shunned. In fact, I found my previous beliefs pretty easy to carry around because they were very vague. In discussions on this topic, I always remember how I was treated by those who discussed their beliefs with me and I with them. Together, we brought into clarity where I was "at", and I realized that I had accepted some rather inconsistent positions, unthought out conclusions, secondhand interpretations, and so on. This did not make me a Lutheran Christian, a pastor, or superior to anyone. It allowed me to see my beliefs for what they were.
My present belief system is one I didn't arrive at overnight or in an instant. And it does not allow me to view any other human being as beneath my regard as one to be dismissed, shunned or condemned by me, or anyone else. If they find my postions fixed, that does not mean I'm arrogant, anymore than their convictions make them arrogant. If they shun me, I will not shun them. I know I'm 'wrong" in the eyes of many, even in the eyes of fellow Loungers, with regard to what I believe. So be it. Shunning, condemning, attacking will not make me 'right". I will assert that someone's position is one I reject. I would say that many make 'wrong' choices, morally incorrect ones. But we are all 'guilty' of that! None of us is without sin, none.
No finger of judgement can be pointed by one person toward another that doesn't ultimately finds its object in the one pointing. My failures to live up to my own standard does not invalidate the standard. It invalidates my claim to smugness, arrogance and condescension toward others. Warning others about false beliefs sounds like intolerance to some. I am thankful someone warned me. I am thankful I never stop warning myself before I warn anyone else. Others were patient, they listened, they offered things, they helped me.

dean

 

[Gilbey]

***

there have been some programs on TV about back from death experiences, where people have died but been revived. People tend to dismiss the reports as an oxygen starved brain.

In the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Some prefer to be atheists because they feel that their freedom is being threatened by religious inhibitions if they joined one. They may feel convicted, or even almost enlightened by the truth but may make excuses not to accept it because for fear of inhibitions. I heard one preacher say that some people don't want to be Christians because porno was more pleasurable to them.

 

[Foofoogal]

Why wouldn't you want to let people know if you have found an abundant life. Pretty selfish IMHO to eat at the table and watch people starve spiritually around you or hit walls all the time and go into unnecessary pain.
Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost is quite a benefit package to resist letting people know about.
I am not so concerned with where I am going as how I am living now.
I believe the Holy Spirit is my teacher which is a whole nother discussion I am sure. Come and dine.lol

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Why wouldn't you want to let people know if you have found an abundant life. Pretty selfish IMHO to eat at the table and watch people starve spiritually around you or hit walls all the time and go into unnecessary pain.
Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost is quite a benefit package to resist letting people know about.
I am not so concerned with where I am going as how I am living now.
I believe the Holy Spirit is my teacher which is a whole nother discussion I am sure. Come and dine.lol

I'm not sure at whom this is directed but I don't think it's necessary to label someone "selfish" simply because they prefer to keep their beliefs private, and often with good reason.

Edit: Keeping the verbalization of their beliefs private.

I had a friend who was a born again Christian. She spoke not a word of it, but the way she lived and treated people spoke VOLUMES.

 

[Foofoogal]

Thank you. I wrote IMHO which means I would personally feel very selfish. I honestly don't know how a Christian could keep quiet as the last command the Lord gave to His disciples was the great commission. Truthfully the command of the Foundation or Commander which is Jesus.
The Harvest is full and the laborers are few.
I personally though will never tell anyone about the Lord unless the Holy Spirit leads me to.
This is a conversation only also BTW. lol

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Thank you. I wrote IMHO which means I would personally feel very selfish. I honestly don't know how a Christian could keep quiet as the last command the Lord gave to His disciples was the great commission. Truthfully the command of the Foundation or Commander which is Jesus.
The Harvest is full and the laborers are few.
I personally though will never tell anyone about the Lord unless the Holy Spirit leads me to.
This is a conversation only also BTW. lol

My point being that one can communicate one's faith without words, so that while a Christian may be "quiet" by your definition they can still be quite effective in conveying their truths with their actions.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Re something MK stated earlier, people ask me if I am an atheist and my reply is, no, I am not, I don't have the faith to be an atheist.

I would have to have faith that nothing is there and I am not certain of that, anymore than I am certain that something, or someone, is.

I am a haunted, and grail-seeking, agnostic.

At least now I know that even Mother Theresa had some of my angst.

karol

 

[Bebop]

Re something MK stated earlier, people ask me if I am an atheist and my reply is, no, I am not, I don't have the faith to be an atheist.

I would have to have faith that nothing is there and I am not certain of that, anymore than I am certain that something, or someone, is.

I am a haunted, and grail-seeking, agnostic.

At least now I know that even Mother Theresa had some of my angst.

karol

I would find it easier to be religious than to be agnostic. [huh]
I believe Mother Theresa questioned her faith, as many faithful do, because the brain starts to work with logic after blindly believing. One starts to do the math and the numbers don't add up. To put it simply, you are told you must have faith and that things happen because God wants them to happen and it is all controled by a power so powerful that we must not expect black and white answers to our questions. But it will be worth it in the end. Whether it be a flock of virgins or everlasting peace, there are many reasons to just have faith. A lot of what religion seems to give is comfort (unless you are talking about mutilating childrens genitalia in the name of religion). People like comfort. It is much better than being castigated or even ousted for being doubtful.

 

[K.D. Lightner]

Somehow, I think that the greatest moral person in the universe is the one who strives to give and serve, and yet has no hope of heaven.

Or am I just a cock-eyed existentialist?

karol