What has happened to society?

[surely]

Excuse me Doran that is not what I would call "High" culture, if you get my drift.

The excesses of, if you like, the flipside culture and the dominant culture have resulted in the messes we must now clean up.

 

[Dr Doran]

Excuse me Doran that is not what I would call "High" culture, if you get my drift.

The excesses of, if you like, the flipside culture and the dominant culture have resulted in the messes we must now clean up.

If you are saying that you do not respect Plato, Cervantes, Mozart and Shakespeare then I am afraid I retract my last compliment to you and I wish to have nothing else to do with you.

We all draw boundaries, and that is most firmly where mine is. Persons who do not respect this tradition have no room at my table.

 

[Twitch]

Surley- as someone mentioned in another thread it becomes nearly impossible to exclude any reference to politics (in the historical sense) when discussing all the aspects of a society or culture in present or past times.

So did politics affect cultural values, mores and points of view, like in the 60s? The answer is a resounding 'yes,' but we can't delve into that because some web troll will be exploiting the opportunity to forward his soap box agenda to bleat about the next politicians who will certainly save the world.

While some long for a return to old time values and such we must realize that sooner or later they will be back in some modified form. Nations, societies and sub-cultures continuly change. The pendulum will follow its predictable course. What once was will be again.[huh]

 

[Fletch]

I guess when I talk about "Crassness" what I mean is this sense that any sense of propriety/impropriety in public conduct should be tossed aside as being "hypocritical," coupled with this notion that everything one does should be as in-your-face aggressive as possible -- the idea that the more vulgar you are the more "authentic" you are. I don't buy that at all, and don't see how it's ever been any kind of an improvement in society.

Of course, part of that might be my own background. In a lot of ways, we didn't *have* the sixties where I grew up -- we went straight from a culture stuck at about 1952 to 1975 all in one shot, or at least that's how it seemed to me growing up.

Just my impression here - YMM most definitely V - but it strikes me that the vulgarity-as-authenticity meme had to do with the post-WW2 generation of intellectuals, artists, etc., where urban workingclass ethnic males (especially New Yorkers) began to have a lot of influence. Think of writers like Norman Mailer, taking potshots at, well basically everybody, but especially the stuffy WASP establishment and its emotional reserve and wood-paneled classiness. After awhile of this, gentility just became a codeword for something to hide.

 

[Fletch]

The excesses of, if you like, the flipside culture and the dominant culture have resulted in the messes we must now clean up.

Just don't count on the messes ever being cleaned up, or even clean-upable, at least without creating bigger and worse messes.

The best way to beat a social trend is to wait it out. It often takes a generation. Sometimes more.

 

[Foofoogal]

Some, perhaps most, of using poor language simply seems to arise from parents no longer teaching and enforcing good manners with thier children.

This is where the blue law came into play. Time spent on Sunday with the children teaching them manners though it should be taught all week long. Forced to have no distractions in a way.

People running to and fro.

It was acceptable behavior that I didn't even question as a child to respect adults. Now though I understand the dangers of doing that blindly it has now been changed dramatically.
I spoke to a young person that summed it up when they said a person has to earn my respect. (huh!)
Major difference IMHO and why maybe some of the older people are so mad. We earned those years and expected the respect due us like our old parents. lol

Hmm. Sowing and reaping I would presume.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It was acceptable behavior that I didn't even question as a child to respect adults. Now though I understand the dangers of doing that blindly it has now been changed dramatically.
I spoke to a young person that summed it up when they said a person has to earn my respect. (huh!)
Major difference IMHO and why maybe some of the older people are so mad. We earned those years and expected the respect due us like our old parents. lol

Puts me to mind of the time I heard my then-14-year old niece tell her grandmother -- my mother -- to "go (expletive) herself", in an elevator full of people. Ma, who suffers no fools, had to be restrained from clipping her one across the face right there on the spot. (If there hadn't been others in the car, I wouldn't have restrained her.)

Afterward, my niece honestly couldn't understand what the problem was -- "my friends and I, that's how we talk." They honestly don't get it, which is the root of a lot of the problem -- they don't get it because they haven't been taught it.

 

[surely]

If you are saying that you do not respect Plato, Cervantes, Mozart and Shakespeare then I am afraid I retract my last compliment to you and I wish to have nothing else to do with you.

We all draw boundaries, and that is most firmly where mine is. Persons who do not respect this tradition have no room at my table.

Slow down big man, that is not at all, not in the least, in no way was I suggesting that. I was punning: "High" culture, think the magazine High Times, is the set of practices and behaviors developed by those who get high.

Those who you cite are certainly in my lexicon of Greats, past & present. Indeed, I stand on their shoulders (& if I may mix metaphors) but I do not place them on an elevated plane for they too did not see the whole picture but what they saw they expressed with Beauty (allusion to Plato).

What I may be asking for is that those who have that classical or traditional bent would also respect the positive contributions of the "flip" culture (I like that term)

So in kind I could say that those who do not respect the positives of this "new" tradition "have no room at my table." Many feel that way and that is why there is such a divide amongst cultures. I wish to break that process for I am willing to talk to anyone anywhere (as long as I have armed support in the background). .

 

[scotrace]

I can still vividly remember my mother's flash of rage at my first and last attempt at saying such a thing within her hearing. My cheek stung for two days. And there was much talk about my being lucky no teeth were dislodged.

Your Mom showed remarkable restraint, Lizzie.

 

[Fletch]

I don't usually condone corporal punishment, but a little dab of this on neecie's tongue might have been apropos...

My dad still tells the story of the day in 1944 when he heard one of the printers down at the paper call someone a ¢*¢!!$#¢!!er. Thinking it was a kind of bird, he unwittingly repeated it at the dinner table.

Let's just say that after that his table talk was 99 44/100% pure.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I can still vividly remember my mother's flash of rage at my first and last attempt at saying such a thing within her hearing. My cheek stung for two days. And there was much talk about my being lucky no teeth were dislodged.

Your Mom showed remarkable restraint, Lizzie.

I nearly dislocated her wrist restraining her. It wasn't a pretty scene.

When I was a wee lass, I experimented a bit with language, and was introduced to the business end of a bar of Fels-Naptha. I didn't do it again -- from then on I wouldn't even say "Chrysler" in public because it sounded like swearing.

 

[nobodyspecial]

I may hear my kids use foul language once, but they are smart enough to not let me hear them use it twice. I am constantly having to explain to them that certain words may not be swear words, but that does not make the word in question polite to use and that I don't want to hear them using such words, even if they hear other adults, sometimes myself, use them.

The word "sucks" comes to mind. Not a swear word, but still not polite in my opinion and I don't wish to hear if from my children and they know that. I've never had to spank or smack my kids to get them to understand that certain language and behaviors won't be tolerated. I'm not against corporal punishment per se, I've just not had to use this to get my point across.

Having kids has been a great refresher on cleaning up my language and making a point of generally using better manners.

Switching gears a bit, I'm amazed at the language on television shows. We don't have cable, but just regular network tv. For example, if I am up late I'll turn on re-runs of Friends and the language and innuedos is such that I'm glad we don't watch much tv. Not much there that I want two young girls to see and hear.

 

[TheKitschGoth]

I spoke to a young person that summed it up when they said a person has to earn my respect. (huh!)

I see no problem with this. Just because someone is elder does not automatically mean they deserve respect. I'll be polite and courteous, but no one gets any real respect from me without reason. Aging happens to everyone, whether they are cruel or caring, intelligent or not.

 

[CharlesB]

I'll survey the situation as such. The world has never been perfect and I'm safe in assuming it never will be. The fact that religious and racial intolerance is no longer accepted for the most part is a positive. That being said movement forward is often precipitated by vast swings and a settling in the middle.

The utter destruction of ww2 and reevaluation of our social standards as men fought side by side begat the movement towards civil rights. We do not have water fountains for "whites" and "coloreds" and that is a great thing

The social and fiscal excesses of the 60s and 70s brought about the religious right...but we are starting to see a realignment toward social liberalism and fiscal prudence that is a moderate thing.

A very polite society gave way to an impolite one, I beleive we are in a correction and moderating period at the moment.

At the end of the day we go from one extreme to another and then rest in the middle more moderate in each. Somemay not like it, some call it progress. Ultimately time has a leveling effect on the the positions and dispositions of a society and on the whole we are usually better off.

 

[Feraud]

I see no problem with this. Just because someone is elder does not automatically mean they deserve respect. I'll be polite and courteous, but no one gets any real respect from me without reason. Aging happens to everyone, whether they are cruel or caring, intelligent or not.

Baloney! I really see your point about aging, behavior, etc. but experience in life demonstrate that anyone who uses that excuse is just looking to validate their bad behavior.

No 15 year old(whatever juvenille age) has earned the right to have their respect "granted" to most of their seniors. That is obnoxious and selfish talk. Children do not make the rules.

I am not saying you are engaging in it.


Edit: Just to clarify. I am reflecting more on the experience Foofoogal had than you specifically. I could have quoted better.

 

[surely]

Certainly aging by itself does not deserve respect; but aging with wit and style, as I have, certainly does!


:eusa_clap

 

[CharlesB]

Certainly aging by itself does not deserve respect; but aging with wit and style, as I have, certainly does!


:eusa_clap

Surely, you jest!

 

[Idledame]

Rather than me earning a teenager's respect, which may be difficult as I walk down the street or pass them in Sears, it perhaps would be better that they showed me respect unless I show myself to not deserve it. The concept of only showing respect to someone who earns it is an excuse for bad behavior. In fact wouldn't it be even classier to show respect even if the other person didn't deserve it?

 

[Foofoogal]

I rest my case. My point is or was that we didn't even know we had a choice in respecting adults in so many different ways. I still find myself saying yes maam and no maam. Yes sir and no sir. Don't think it damaged us one bit.

My teenage son was about 16 and decided he would address me incorrectly lets say.
My husband told him right then and there. "you may talk to your mother that way, but you will not talk to my wife that way." He never forgot it.

I really am concerned as it seems the choice is either moving towards total anarchy or not.

I may not want to stop at the stop sign but there is a reason to. There are reasons for all of these guidelines or restrictions.

 

[dollydaydream]

As I have fallen more and more in love with classic movies, I have begun to ponder some things. I wonder what has happened over the last 70 or so years that has changed our society so much. It begs me to ask questions...

At what point in time did we progress from being such a classy, dignified society into what we are today? Think about it. Sure, these are just movies. But why do men no longer wear suits all the time or women wear such gorgeous gowns (aside from work or special events)? What happened to everyone's manners? It is rare to see a man open a door for a women or pull her chair out, or stand when she arrives or leaves a dinner table. The latter is pretty much non-existent. When did everyone forget proper English? All the women and men carried themselves with such grace and poise and class.

However, today, that is obviously not the case. As I watch these movies, I find myself becoming increasingly judgmental of women (and men) these days. When I see Grace Kelly or Ginger Rogers, Lauren Bacall or Audrey Hepburn, it makes me wish that women of that nature still existed. And sadly, it makes finding a mate even harder now. I may not have all the attributes or be as proper as those in the good old days, true. But I would still consider myself to be in a "class" that is no longer seen in this day. I have come to expect more of people, but sadly, they fall far short. Damn you Golden Age for changing my wants in a women. I have a feeling I am destined for life-long singularity.

Without bothering to read the rest of this thread (I was rather offended by the above and didn't want to waste my time with more offensive drivel) I would like to point out that perhaps the women you are looking for do still exist, just not in the places you're looking(?) What you seem to be describing, however, seems to me like a typical schoolboy crush on the movie/pop star of the day.

My mum emailed me this article from the Daily Mail yeterday. Interesting, it would seem that it's not just women that have changed...

It amuses me that a lot of people assume that in the 'Golden Era' there was nothing sinister going on at all, when in fact there has always been crime, drugs and sex. Just because it's widely publicised 'these days' doesn't make it a new occurrence. I'm pretty sure there were tramp, whores & women with no manners back then too. You just don't get it do you?